Using spare load line on a 2477S

[larryllix]

Mini-Remotes are switching devices without a load connection. Get the one button rocker ones. There is your 3-way switch unit without load connections. Get some wire nuts and get over it. The X10 3-way switches required house wiring between the dummy and the load connected switch so they weren't usable for upgrading like Insteon SwitchLincs are.

 

I have a junk box full of three way X10 remote switches and after decades of using them  I wouldn't buy a 3-way Insteon Switchlincs, even if they were available. For a few bucks more the full SwitchLinc gives me the capability of repurposing it later, when my brainstorms change. I prefer one standard style of SwitchLinc I can use anywhere  I want, not have to have a stockpile of different switch styles to use for different applications.

 

Similar to Stu, once you activate some real HA and vocal controls, and not just install remote control systems, the need for 3-way starts to disappear.

 

Perhaps SmartieHouse knows more about the future than we think.

 

@Teken. Thanks for that

Edited August 25, 2017 by larryllix

[stusviews]

Mini-Remotes are switching devices without a load connection. Get the one button rocker ones. There is your 3-way switch unit without load connections. Get some wire nuts and get over it. The X10 3-way switches required house wiring between the dummy and the load connected switch so they weren't usable for upgrading like Insteon SwitchLincs are.

 

Caution: The Mini Remote requires a wall behind it, not an open switch box. No wire nuts needed at all.

 

X10 3-way switches did require wiring between the primary and slave. I wired for that (started with X10). Came in handy when, due to reconfiguration, I was able to change which device was wired to the load. Not really needed in most situations.

 

I have a junk box full of three way X10 remote switches and after decades of using them  I wouldn't buy a 3-way Insteon Switchlincs, even if they were available. For a few bucks more the full SwitchLinc gives me the capability of repurposing it later, when my brainstorms change. I prefer one standard style of SwitchLinc I can use anywhere  I want, not have to have a stockpile of different switch styles to use for different applications.

 

Fortunately, we have an electronic recycle center nearby. And, yes, being able to repurpose devices is a very important advantage, IMO. The initial price differential can be worth it, but diminishes as enthusiasm expands.

 

 

.. once you activate some real HA and vocal controls, and not just install remote control systems, the need for 3-way starts to disappear.

 

Yes, that happens.

 

@Teken. Thanks for that

 

Thanks also to Teken for all your sometimes lengthy, but eye-opening posts.

 

BTW, today is the anniversary of the mostly unneeded hash tag, Exceptions noted for #me and @me, ¥me too, also Θme

[apostolakisl]

For my part.  Voice activation is fun, makes for a nice party trick, and is sometimes actually useful, but it is definitely not a replacement for a switch at each entry/exit location.  Saying the words and waiting for the response is quite a drawn out process compared to the reflexive and simple "tap" it takes to turn the light on using the 3-way that I'm walking right past.  I use voice in that unusual situaton where I want to change the light after already engaging myself in an activity within the room.  Somehow, I don't think I'm unique in how I function.  The rest of my family behaves the same as I of their own accord.

 

For my part, I have never re-purposed a switch.  I have replaced failed switches and I have upgraded to dual band.  But every location that I have ever installed a switchlinc still has a swtichlinc.  I have only kind of sort repurposed some switches when I replaced an otherwise working single band with a dual band.  But mostly not.  I'm just not into the idea of wasting my time instaling an old, inferior switch, that is likely to just give me trouble and need to be replaced again.  I just don't know what sort of re-purpose you would even do.  You might, I guess decide to just go back to old fashioned switch, or maybe go to a KPL, but how many times might you do that?

 

If a regular Swtichlnc with load costs $49.99 and a non-load swtich cost $29.99 . . . .I would absolutely buy them.  If it were $49.99 and $44.99 . . .no, I wouldn't bother.  But $20 a piece times a lot of switches adds up.  And a non-load Insteon swtich would be better than a zwave slave since does not require 3 way wiring to the desired load, it only needs a hot and neutral.  

 

This popy-cock from whoever mystery person at SH that they had too many returns becuase of confused customers.  Well, that is just on them.  It just isn't that hard to make it clear in the description what it doesn't do.  If they wrote their descriptions better for all of their dfvices I bet they would have a lot fewer returns. Sure, sometimes you just can't fix stupid, and that is going to get you no matter what you sell or don't sell.

 

Personally I have 18 switchlncs that have no load attached (and another 39 with loads).  If I could have saved $360 installing otherwise identical no-load switches, heck yeah!

[Teken]

To be honest I see value in both positions. But in the big picture I would just prefer the hardware was built with higher quality parts to begin with!

[larryllix]

I believe in home automation as a goal, The remote control is fun but not really any point if the HA is done properly. I probably touch a wall or lamp switch only about 2 times per day in normal daily activities. ooops. I lied. I touch my ensuite SwitchLinc many times per day,  but right now, having it change laser intensity to not wake up the spouse intensity twice per day is good enough automation. That may change later when I get ambitious.

 

My goal is not to require any switches at all, so a special 3-way switch that cannot control a load and only performs half the usual tasks usually available with devices  in a switch box, is not much use. Out of my 10 Switchlincs in use, I have none without a connected load. I always back up vocals with a hardware switch somewhere. If my ISY failed i have manual remote controls for all lights in a cupboard somewhere.. If those batteries were found dead and needed, then there is the plug in the receptacle to be pulled..

 

I do  have a hardware four way system in my front foyer and a three-way system in my stairwell. apostolakisl's easy switch to reach applies in those cases  and also I was warned in many places over the years, not to automate  staircase lighting. Ever had a power failure while walking down a staircase? You quickly grab for a railing, while your feet freeze and your weight keeps going forward. Creates a moment of complete panic.

[lilyoyo1]

For my part.  Voice activation is fun, makes for a nice party trick, and is sometimes actually useful, but it is definitely not a replacement for a switch at each entry/exit location.  Saying the words and waiting for the response is quite a drawn out process compared to the reflexive and simple "tap" it takes to turn the light on using the 3-way that I'm walking right past.  I use voice in that unusual situaton where I want to change the light after already engaging myself in an activity within the room.  Somehow, I don't think I'm unique in how I function.  The rest of my family behaves the same as I of their own accord.

 

For my part, I have never re-purposed a switch.  I have replaced failed switches and I have upgraded to dual band.  But every location that I have ever installed a switchlinc still has a swtichlinc.  I have only kind of sort repurposed some switches when I replaced an otherwise working single band with a dual band.  But mostly not.  I'm just not into the idea of wasting my time instaling an old, inferior switch, that is likely to just give me trouble and need to be replaced again.  I just don't know what sort of re-purpose you would even do.  You might, I guess decide to just go back to old fashioned switch, or maybe go to a KPL, but how many times might you do that?

 

If a regular Swtichlnc with load costs $49.99 and a non-load swtich cost $29.99 . . . .I would absolutely buy them.  If it were $49.99 and $44.99 . . .no, I wouldn't bother.  But $20 a piece times a lot of switches adds up.  And a non-load Insteon swtich would be better than a zwave slave since does not require 3 way wiring to the desired load, it only needs a hot and neutral.  

 

This popy-cock from whoever mystery person at SH that they had too many returns becuase of confused customers.  Well, that is just on them.  It just isn't that hard to make it clear in the description what it doesn't do.  If they wrote their descriptions better for all of their dfvices I bet they would have a lot fewer returns. Sure, sometimes you just can't fix stupid, and that is going to get you no matter what you sell or don't sell.

 

Personally I have 18 switchlncs that have no load attached (and another 39 with loads).  If I could have saved $360 installing otherwise identical no-load switches, heck yeah!

A house that is fully done likely would not have parts repurposed. However, if a person has a couple of rooms done, they have additional rooms to grow. For example, when I first got into insteon, I did mostly switches/dimmers in my rooms and no kpls.. As I grew, I replaced some with keypads to give more capabilities. When I did that, those additional switches were used in other locations saving a few hundred dollars in the process. Had they been remote only (based off the prices you stated), I wouldve saved 100 bucks initially but would've spent much more afterwards. In the grand scheme of things, 20 extra bucks isnt much money. For those just starting out, it probably helps more in the long run (as others have attested to) in regards to ease of use and mistakes. 

 

Another thing is the ability to have different things happen from different locations. Turning on my upstairs switch triggers certain things during certain hours while the downstairs does others. Had this been 1 real and 1 remote, I would not have that capability

 

As far as popy-cock the person remains unnamed simply because they may not want their name in the forum. I dont have to name drop to prove my point. Stusviews knows people at Insteon as well yet you never hear him mention anyone by name personally. There are reasons for that. Doesn't mean that others do not know people who work there. Whether its him or others with close contacts there, we simply choose to leave them out of here. IF they choose to chime in here they can but it is not for me to do so for them to appease you. Either way, while you may not like their decision it was made for what they feel is in their best interest not yours.

Edited August 25, 2017 by lilyoyo1

[larryllix]

To clarify most of the repurpose comment, I moved and I didn't want my price further reduced due to weird switches that people would want money discounted from the asking price due to needing electrical work done to remove the weird devices.

 

After the deal was made, I removed the X10 wall switches to take with me, because I wanted them. On the day of closing the new owner walked in and asked, "what happened to those switches?".  I answered some made up story about only operating with my computers, when she said, "Good, My father is an electrician and he said he could replace them all with normal switches. That will save us some time and money".

 

Now they sit in a box as I went to ISY and Insteon for a better system.

[TrojanHorse]

Trying not to hijack but...

 

Anyone see need for a 2+ load Controller? Just installed a fan light heater combo unit and had to monkey around with microswitches, micro dimmers and relays. Something that could work as an in-wall fanlinc for those with existing three conductor wiring?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[mwester]

Yes, I have a number of applications for such a thing.  I have one box where I've managed to fit two Insteon switchlincs and a micro on/off -- but only by shortening the wires in the box to make the necessary room.

 

Turns out that other people do as well, enough to justify someone making such a product -- since there are multi-relay z-wave devices (but no such thing in the Insteon world).

[apostolakisl]

 

 

As far as popy-cock the person remains unnamed simply because they may not want their name in the forum. I dont have to name drop to prove my point. Stusviews knows people at Insteon as well yet you never hear him mention anyone by name personally. There are reasons for that. Doesn't mean that others do not know people who work there. Whether its him or others with close contacts there, we simply choose to leave them out of here. IF they choose to chime in here they can but it is not for me to do so for them to appease you. Either way, while you may not like their decision it was made for what they feel is in their best interest not yours.

I'm not saying the person is fake, I'm saying the person is full of it or has bought into the company line.  By the logic provided, Insteon should be discontinuing a whole slew of products.  They just figured they could still get the sale anyway.

Edited August 26, 2017 by apostolakisl

[apostolakisl]

A house that is fully done likely would not have parts repurposed. However, if a person has a couple of rooms done, they have additional rooms to grow. For example, when I first got into insteon, I did mostly switches/dimmers in my rooms and no kpls.. As I grew, I replaced some with keypads to give more capabilities. When I did that, those additional switches were used in other locations saving a few hundred dollars in the process. Had they been remote only (based off the prices you stated), I wouldve saved 100 bucks initially but would've spent much more afterwards. In the grand scheme of things, 20 extra bucks isnt much money. For those just starting out, it probably helps more in the long run (as others have attested to) in regards to ease of use and mistakes. 

 

 

If a house is not fully done, it seems like there would be ample opportunity to find new locations for just about any type of switch.

 

 

Another thing is the ability to have different things happen from different locations. Turning on my upstairs switch triggers certain things during certain hours while the downstairs does others. Had this been 1 real and 1 remote, I would not have that capability

.

I don't follow.  If you have a non-load switch in a box where there is no load, then having a capped load wire provides no functionality under any circumstance.  Just to be clear, I am not talking about Insteon making a 3-way slave, I am talking about a non-load switchlinc.  Insteon basically already makes this in a battery version.

Edited August 26, 2017 by apostolakisl

[lilyoyo1]

Once again. I said SOURCE. Meaning someone who makes decisions. Not someone who simply answers the phone.

 

Some items smarthome sells are extremely slow sellers. They aren't there expecting to be hits or big sellers but are there for a specific purpose/loss leader.

 

Yes if you don't do your own home you can always buy more devices. However, should you change how you do things (such as I did) a person is able to use switches they changed out in other locations instead of buying new switches.

 

Not sure about what's so hard to follow. If you're putting in a switch simply to connect to another switch for a 3way it simply allows control of those 2 devices. Having full control over a device allows for more configuration. As I stated, I am able to do different things depending on what light I am at instead of simple turning on/of the switch that is connected to it.

 

At the end of the day neither of our opinions matter. Insteon made a decision they felt would be in their best interest and went with it. If you don't like it you can always show your displeasure by voting with your wallet. Switch over to zwave and you have what you're looking for. He has them pretty cheap

[apostolakisl]

 

Not sure about what's so hard to follow. If you're putting in a switch simply to connect to another switch for a 3way it simply allows control of those 2 devices. Having full control over a device allows for more configuration. As I stated, I am able to do different things depending on what light I am at instead of simple turning on/of the switch that is connected to it.

 

Not at all true.  An insteon switch can be linked to any number of switches.  Removing the load circuitry has nothing at all to do with which switches it can be linked to.

 

 

At the end of the day neither of our opinions matter. Insteon made a decision they felt would be in their best interest and went with it. If you don't like it you can always show your displeasure by voting with your wallet. Switch over to zwave and you have what you're looking for. He has them pretty cheap

 

Precisely.  Like I said, they figured they could make the sale because the switch did what it needed to. . .  so what if it does extra if the customer will pay for the useless part anyway.

[Teken]

In the big picture if this feature is important to you. There is a formal Wish List company thread created by Insteon. Those so willing should focus their energy by adding said request to the Insteon Wish List!!!

 

In my time on this planet I've found more people are talkers than doers!!

 

Let's do more than talk . . .

Edited August 26, 2017 by Teken

[apostolakisl]

In the big picture if this feature is important to you. There is a formal Wish List company thread created by Insteon. Those so willing should focus their energy by adding said request to the Insteon Wish List!!!

 

In my time on this planet I've found more people are talkers than doers!!

 

Let's do more than talk . . .

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ha, just checked the forum and it appears that thread is locked.  Unless they have another one somewhere else, but the sticky one at the top of the forum under Insteon is locked.

[Teken]

Ha, just checked the forum and it appears that thread is locked.  Unless they have another one somewhere else, but the sticky one at the top of the forum under Insteon is locked.

 

I'm not sure what thread you're referring too but their is an entire *Forum* dedicated to the Insteon Wish List: http://forum.insteon.com/forum/main-category/new-insteon-device-wish-list

[apostolakisl]

I'm not sure what thread you're referring too but their is an entire *Forum* dedicated to the Insteon Wish List: http://forum.insteon.com/forum/main-category/new-insteon-device-wish-list

I was looking at the smarthome/insteon forum.  I wasn't aware of the forum you have here.

[stusviews]

Ha, just checked the forum and it appears that thread is locked.  Unless they have another one somewhere else, but the sticky one at the top of the forum under Insteon is locked.

 

I just posted to the locked topic.

[Teken]

I was looking at the smarthome/insteon forum. I wasn't aware of the forum you have here.

My bad I forgot that first thread in the original Insteon forum. ☹️

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[stusviews]

Here's the latest Insteon Wish List forum topic.

[lilyoyo1]

Not at all true. An insteon switch can be linked to any number of switches. Removing the load circuitry has nothing at all to do with which switches it can be linked to.

 

 

Precisely. Like I said, they figured they could make the sale because the switch did what it needed to. . . so what if it does extra if the customer will pay for the useless part anyway.

I was speaking on how other companies do their 3way switches. For example, the GE jasco uses the traveler so it will not talk to another switch (may have changed since I tested capabilities but it was that way at one time). In the end, it's irrelevant as this is all hypothetical. They made their choice and from a personal standpoint, I agree with it

[larryllix]

I was speaking on how other companies do their 3way switches. For example, the GE jasco uses the traveler so it will not talk to another switch (may have changed since I tested capabilities but it was that way at one time). In the end, it's irrelevant as this is all hypothetical. They made their choice and from a personal standpoint, I agree with it

X10 did the same thing.  In fact even the load bearing switch was special with an extra wire to receive the 120vac pulse the 3-way special X10 wall button created on the traveller wire. The house wring required a hardware 3-way circuit to begin with.

 

Insteon does it so much better, and the way most circuitry is going...keep the hardware generic and universal, and let the end user decide how s)he wants to design the logic with as many options as possible available.

Edited August 27, 2017 by larryllix