Sudden multiple Request Failures

[Michaelv]

I have had a medium, sized Insteon Network in my home for about a year.About 40 SLD's 14 KPLs, 10 apl and 5 lamp, lincs, with 6 access points.

It has all been working rather reliably, with some isues that I have worked through with the help of the forum and UDI Tech Support. You have alll been great, thanks again. This last week I had the electricians over to install the balance of my home with Insteon. They finished all but 25 switches on Friday and were scheduled to come back Monday to do the remaining 25. Here is the issue, They installed 25, SLD's, 15 KPL and 5 SLR on Friday. I spent all of Saturday and Sunday programming those switches with hardly one request failure. I was Psyched as I was thinking, " The more switches I add to the Network, the stronger it gets." They returned Monday and Installed the remaining switches. I now have over 100 SLD, 30 KPL,20 SLR,and about 20 Lamplincs and Appliance links. I have started to program the last batch of switches installed yesterday and I am getting multiple request failures when trying to create scenes. I am also having difficulty discovering new devices using the " Start Linking" Program. I eventually have been able to add all but two SLD to the system, but it is the scene creation that troubles me. I have tried rebooting the ISY several times. I am Running Version 2.7.0 on an ISY 99R.

 

What is up with my system?

[MikeB]

Hi Michael -

 

Are communications to and from your previously reliable switches still OK? If it's just the devices added in on Monday, you may have noise located on the circuits containing those new devices.

[Michaelv]

Hi Mike,

 

I do not seem to have a problem with the existing switches, but admittedly, I have not tried to create any new scenes with them as they have been previously programmed. The last batch of switches are all over the house, spread out over 4 floors, so I do not think that I have any appreciable noise on any one curcuit. Incidently, I have removed EVERY X-10 Device that was previously installed in my home. If I keep trying, that is to say, close the Admin Console, re-login, or telnet the ISY and reboot, I might get a few new devices added to the scene, but now my success ratio is 1 out of 10 rather than a previous success rate of 49 for 50.

 

Comments?

[MikeB]

You might want to try our 'test scene' function on your existing scenes to see if you get good communications to and from them (TOOLS, DIAGNOSTICS, SCENE TEST).

 

What version PLM are you running (TOOLS, DIAGNOSTICS, PLM INFO)?

[Michaelv]

I tried the Test Scene Tool. All my scenes created before monday that I just tested, test successful, with the exception of one. I added some devices installed on friday and then added them to an existing scene as controllers. The controllers added Friday failed while the rest of the scene was successful. I added 3 switches installed yesterday to an existing scene and two out of the three failed while the rest of the scene was successful. I was able to create an entirley new Scene from the devices installed yesterday, after several attempts, and both devices in those scenes failed three times in a row.

 

PLM Version E.D9.6A v72

 

MV

[MikeB]

So it sounds like you have some comm issues between your PLM location and those new devices. Is it possible to relocate an AccessPoint or 2 to those locations? Do you have an AccessPoint on your PLM?

[Michaelv]

I can certainly try. I have 6 AP's already. Should I get more? I have a basement and three other floors and the total S.F. of the house is 10,000 s.f. I was under the impression that the more devices added to a system the more " robust' it becomes. Should I redeploy the access points now that the whole house is insteon? Lastly, are you saying the I should have one access point plugged into the back of the PLM or Vice Versa?

 

MV

[ergodic]

Do you have a phase bridge installed? It is not a substitute for APs, but I found it made a huge difference in my remodel of a house we recently bought. I was determined not to have the sporadic problems I had in my last house.

 

What I did was place a 3-gang utility box about 20' wire distance from the panel - before any loads, then put the bridge in the middle slot and two outlets with APs on either side - one to each phase. I also put an AP at the PLM (the PLM is plugged into the AP passthrough). You might may well need other APs (I have 2000 sq ft, a 2-phase 200A entrance and 5 APs - so with four floors and 10K sq. ft I'd vote for probably more) but this goes a long way. And with that size house verify you don't have a 3-phase entrance - if you do you'd need two phase bridges and lots of APs. In my house this setup alone makes the system almost 100% reliable, but I added two APs more anyway. Belt and suspenders. I hate dealing with these problems.

 

Also, (speaking admittedly just from a theoretical viewpoint) I'll note the oft-stated SH assertion that the 'more devices you add the stronger the signal gets' is perhaps a tad bit of overstatement. True the randomly-phased burst signals will average together, but at some point that averaged signal will reach a more of less steady-state cacaphony of sorts and adding devices doesn't really seem to do much. At least unless there is a distance issue (and in a 10,000 sq ft house you might well be dealing with distance issues, I'll probably never know ). I'm mainly saying I wouldn't -- and don't -- count on devices alone to change the equation much.

 

Since you had electricians in, review everything done and make sure you didn't inadvertently add - or already have - anything that may be injecting noise (CFLs, CCFLs, anything with an electronic transformer or switching power supply), or that could be sucking HF signal (UPSen, surge strips, arc fault breakers), etc. This in my experience is the biggest weakness of Insteon and it can drive you nuts trying to find. But also in my experience it can be fixed with persistence, positive attitude ('I WILL solve this') and then liberal application of line filters, Filterlincs and APs as needed.

 

My first cut at diagnostic would be to pull any and all suspect loads and turn off breakers to isolate segments and try to narrow down where the problem(s) might be coming from. That doesn't always work if the problem is 'squishy', but it's a start. The next thing is to stuff an AP right next to the problem controller. I actually made up a bizarre little cheater-cord thing with an AP and wire nuts and an outlet on it - my electrician took one look at the thing and called me the wire nut.

 

If an adjacent AP doesn't help at least that controller you know you have some seriously weird load or problematic wiring on that circuit. In the worst cases I've actually resorted to scoping the line but I'll warn you that madness lies down that road and I don't really recommend it.

 

FWIW

[Michaelv]

Thanks Ergodick,

 

It the week end again and that means programming!!. I read your response and I do appreciate the time it took to compose it. Here what I can tell you. I do have a Leviton HCA02 2 Phase coupler / Repeater installed on my main panel. (I have a main panel, and emergency panel for an auxiliary generator and three other sub panels.) It is left over from my X-10 network and I did not see the harm in leaving it in. Yes? / No?. I have added two more access points, for a grand total of 8 and I am still having the issue. Is there a correct way that I can redeploy the 8 access points. What is the procedure? Do I install the first one and then install the remaining 7 like they were all the second one?

 

The issue boils down to this. I cannot create scenes with 5 specific devices. They were all installed in the last phase of the installation. Everything else installed previous to the last round of switches seems to be OK. I have deleted the 5 from the system, factory reset them, rediscovered theses devices but they just don’t want to be together in a particular scene. There is once SLD that I have replaced with a new SLD and I get the same result. I took dozens of attempts to get the ISY to discover it and now that it does recognize it, I am always losing communication with it and I cannot add it to any scenes. These switches are surrounded with other SLD and some even share the same neutrals! I have a number of filter lincs installed on UPS and power strips and I have even removed 8 florescent fixtures and replaced those with halogen fixtures! They used to be under kitchen cabinet lights.

 

Can anyone tell me if I have excessive noise on my line? I have a Monterey Instruments Power Line Signal analyzer. This is what the display reads in “Noise Display" mode at the moment.

 

NOISE: .5ms: 09m

.2 to .9ms: 17m

 

Is anyone familiar with these readings? Is this good or bad?

 

Finally, I am somewhat disappointed now that I have made this transition to 100% Insteon and I am having problems that are eerily similar to X-10. Noise on the line, Need filters, couplers, more hardware. I want to get this finally programming behind me an enjoy the nice weather on the weekend. Not to mention that I told my family that once the programming is complete, they will appreciate all that Insteon can do for us!. I haven’t even attempted to write the programs to keep keypad LED status up to date with scene and device status. With 29 - 6 button keypads and 6 - 8 button keypads, that is 212 buttons I have to program and check. I hope I do not die before I am through!!

 

Again, Everyone at UDI and on the forum have been great and I know I will get the help and support If I just keep the faith. It is just that I have HUINDREDS of hours into programming and I know I have HUNDREDS more. I just lose the enthusiasm when I hit these roadblocks.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hello MV,

 

Even reading through your post makes me want to shout. This is indeed taking too much of your valuable time and it must have been quite a frustrating experience.

 

Now, the best test to make sure the issues you are not experiencing is not signal/noise related is to bring one of the problematic switches closer to the PLM (even plugged right into it ... yes, very difficult) and try it again. If everything works, then we know we are dealing with Signal/Noise.

 

As far as access points, I always recommend plugging them right at the breaker panel to bridge the phases and then some near your RF equipment. Sometimes too many might cause interference.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[Michaelv]

Thanks Michel, I will keep trying. Do you endorse the use of Filter lincs on UPS and Serge protection strips? I have a few left over from my X-10 days, I have added some UPS units that do not have any type of Filter. Is the Smarthome part number 1626-10 the correct one to use for Insteon? Lastly, I have 8 access points. What is the correct, detailed procedure for installing ALL 8 of these? With 1 - 400 amp main panel and 3 sub panels, do I start with one access point at each panel, that try to connect with it at some other point in the house? Do the subsequent AP's have to be put on a different circuit on the same panel? Do I pay any attention to the LED on the side? I have been try to get this question answered in more than a couple posts but I am styill not clear on how to deploy 8 access point with 4 Electical panels and one RF Recevier.

 

 

Please help.

[Sub-Routine]

Michael, as a test that one of those 5 switches could be bad, you could pull the set buttons on all of them. Test your comms with nearby switches and add them back one at a time.

 

I find it hard to believe that suddenly you need more filters when everything was fine before.

 

For your Access Points please see this post by Steve Lee: Some troubleshooting tips from Steve at Smarthome.

 

Rand

[Illusion]

Thanks Michel, I will keep trying. Do you endorse the use of Filter lincs on UPS and Serge protection strips? I have a few left over from my X-10 days, I have added some UPS units that do not have any type of Filter. Is the Smarthome part number 1626-10 the correct one to use for Insteon? Lastly, I have 8 access points. What is the correct, detailed procedure for installing ALL 8 of these? With 1 - 400 amp main panel and 3 sub panels, do I start with one access point at each panel, that try to connect with it at some other point in the house? Do the subsequent AP's have to be put on a different circuit on the same panel? Do I pay any attention to the LED on the side? I have been try to get this question answered in more than a couple posts but I am styill not clear on how to deploy 8 access point with 4 Electical panels and one RF Recevier.

 

 

Please help.

 

I do not think it matters how you deploy the additional access points. The button pressing procedure on the access point is to provide information to the user only! This makes sure the masses put the access points on separate phases. If you already have access points on separate phases the button pressing step will be very confusing and frustrating as the phases are already coupled so the lights will not flash correctly for same phase/different phase. No configuration is necessary for any access point. If you knew the phase distribution of your outlets, you could just put an access point on each outlet and do no button pressing or setup at all and it would work the way Smarthome intended.

 

The initial two access points should be close to the main 400A panel on separate phases. If the sub panels are fed off breakers from that main panel, as I assume they are, no access points need to be situated near them.

 

The additional access points should be deployed without regard to the sub panels. They should be placed primarily on problem circuits or near common RF only control points. I have an access point at each corner of my house to account for the wireless motion detector signals and one in the living room to pick up the RF from the RL. Again, there is no procedure necessary to have them do their job, just plug them in. Simple Simple. Move them around till you are happy. I hope this answered your question.