Strange all on event, that I caused

[Ajax]

OK guys, I have a scene with most of my devices 70+ that I use a double tap on a keypad to shut-off everything that I want when I leave the house. Worked fine, except I realized I must have missed some devices on my 3-way switches and decided to redo that all "All-off" scene, removed everything from the scene just fine.

 

Then selected all devices and added it to the "all off" scene thinking I can just remove the devices from that scene that I do not want in it, better than adding them instead. Since it took for ever I got distracted with other stuff, and left my computer be. Forgetting that it would go to sleep. Came back and it was sleeping, once woken it seem to keep doing its thing, but suddenly most of my devices would go thru on-off cycles every few minutes at 9pm at night after my 3 kids went to bed, so this left me with a screaming baby, 2 giggly girls that thought it was hilarious and one very pissed off wife....

 

I tried everything, first I restored a back-up that did not work, then I tried unplugging the PLC that did not work, finally I did a device restore and after about 45min everything stopped cycling on-off and was back to normal.

 

So my questions, first why did it keep doing the on-off cycle once I unhooked the PLC? I always thought that was a good fail safe when stuff goes bad? Secondly what is the best way to recover from a crash like that?

 

And of course I forgot to do a backup before this massive change (dumbass) and lost some new installed switches and programs, guess that was a good learning lesson...

[apostolakisl]

The fact that your computer went to sleep has nothing to do with it.  The computer is only a "window" into the ISY.  The computer is just where ISY shows you what is going on and a means for you to deliver commands to ISY.  It has nothing to do with ISY executing the commands.

 

If your lights kept cycling on/off with the PLM unplugged, then the cycling was not coming from ISY or the PLM.  It means you had another device out there that was sending alternating "scene on" "scene off" commands.  That is why when you restored the devices it stopped.  Also, that is why restoring your ISY did nothing.  I wouldn't be surprised if you had simply power cycled your house if that would not have stopped it also since I bet the device simply needed a reboot.  

[LFMc]

Just curious, is there some advantage to putting 70+ devices in an "all off" scene vs. just using an ISY program? I would think it would go so much quicker with a program adding and deleting items, adding logic to the shut offs, etc. than dealing with all the linking going on with a scene. I understand that the scene still works when the ISY is down, but I wouldn't think that is a huge benefit. 

 

Any feedback? 

[apostolakisl]

Just curious, is there some advantage to putting 70+ devices in an "all off" scene vs. just using an ISY program? I would think it would go so much quicker with a program adding and deleting items, adding logic to the shut offs, etc. than dealing with all the linking going on with a scene. I understand that the scene still works when the ISY is down, but I wouldn't think that is a huge benefit. 

 

Any feedback? 

 

A program would be a poor choice to turn off 70 devices.  That would be 70 individual commands that would have to go out.  It would be slow and have much lower reliability.  A scene off command is just one command that all the devices respond to.  Plus, your program would be a PITA to make as you would have to go through and list each device.

[stusviews]

I have an ALL OFF scene that I recently changed from a scene to a program. The scene worked flawlessly. But, so does the program. The scene turned off all device simultaneously, the program turns them off sequentially. So, why the change?

 

The one and only reason is the the scene uses a link (two for the controller) for each and every device, the program uses no links at all. An added benefit, at least for me, is that I ordered the devices starting with those furthest away and ending with the nearest device. That creates a fun effect.

[LFMc]

A program turning all on or all off sequentially sounds like a great way to limit power surges on the home power grid. (-;   

 

I used to worry about wasting bits ("70 commands sent out") when programming in my assembly language days, not so much any more. :-9

 

Seems like adding 1 more device to a program is a lot faster than waiting for 71 devices in a scene to re-link. What I like is by using a program, I don't have to hunt down my remote Keypads and activate them in link mode just to update them. 

 

Its always interesting to hear both sides. Thanks guys for humoring me.

[Ajax]

Thanks again guys, next time I will just kill power to the house to reset it, instead of listening to my wife for 45min...

[larryllix]

I would be afraid of having a scene containing 70+ devices. Every time one device hiccoughs you would have to do a restore write to every device involved. The chances of a bad comm during this process should go up exponentially based on the quantity of devices!

 

I use one scene with the majority of my devices to flash the entire house. The normal All Devices Off is done by a program where I can see the list and control sequence. I don;t recommend scene operations that large. From what I have been told there is no checkback for failures and this make scenes not as reliable.

 

I inject 1-2 second delays between most devices as I know Insteon will bottleneck after a certain quantity of devices or errors. I have experience with a device that has been disabled and yet ISY still tries to operate it. When this happens the next three or four seconds worth of operations all fail by never getting sent or not comm'ing. This took me a few months to find.

 

I also find when a whole house Off sequence is happenning I can detect some lights in a sequence and have time to react to it so I am not left in the dark. I have one program that ensures everything is off when the house is vacant. This algorithm can fail occasionally because of lack of detected movement.

[Ajax]

So to the guys that prefer a program over a scene. Does your program just consist of the "IF" being a controller(keypad) for me, and then just a bunch of turn off commands for each device?  I will give the program instead of scene a shot.

[LFMc]

Thanks again guys, next time I will just kill power to the house to reset it, instead of listening to my wife for 45min...

 

Some people are just not very tolerant of the HA learning curve. Typically the right brained like my ex.  

[stusviews]

So to the guys that prefer a program over a scene. Does your program just consist of the "IF" being a controller(keypad) for me, and then just a bunch of turn off commands for each device?  I will give the program instead of scene a shot.

 

I did find that a few devices did not consistently turn off. That was solved using a repeat statement. A wait may have worked. When I have time, I'll try that instead of the repeat

[apostolakisl]

I would be afraid of having a scene containing 70+ devices. Every time one device hiccoughs you would have to do a restore write to every device involved. The chances of a bad comm during this process should go up exponentially based on the quantity of devices!

 

 

 In a scene like this most all the devices would be responders.  You would likely have very few controllers, if any.  When you add or remove or restore a responder it only writes the device itself and the controller(s).  It does not write to all 70 (or whatever) devices.

 

It is true that the responders in a scene do not confirm receipt of message.  If you have consistent failures in that scene, this is not cause to use a program, rather it is cause to fix your com.  If your scenes fail, you probably will also have failures on individual device com as well.

 

Also, I would think you would want to hit the "off" button and have everything turn off.  Not turn off over the next minute or two.  And all the while bottling up your com for other commands.

[Ajax]

Yeah I have always used a scene and I just had to double tap my keypad when I leave. Worked great, but of course i missed a couple keypads etc, and wanted it to work perfect. Will wait for daylight and my wife to be gone before I attempt that again! It was kind of strange after I did my restore from a backup my contact list was empty, which was no big deal but was just surprised.