DrLumen Posted December 31, 2017 Posted December 31, 2017 I agree that the ZWave market is fractured and forked. I guess it really goes back to the Sigma certification process either being too loose or they just weren't enforcing it. A true 'standard' would not have these issues. As to the lawsuit, I think there is something there as Hail is not just deprecated but obsolete as of 1/2017. Leviton is still selling these devices as certified when they actually aren't currently certified. Or, the current certification means nothing. Somewhat like sticking a UL label on something that no longer meets code. I can't comment on any of the insteon shtuff. I was and am going to avoid all PLC stuff. Supposedly UPB is good stuff but I will newer know it. I spec'd the optimizers and inverter for my solar array as the quoted Enphase inverters used PL comms for reporting. I have had enough of that with X10. Then, I ended up stepping into another mud pit with Zwave. I think as it matures it will get more reliable. I think companies will eventually just settle on a standard set (or subset) of the commands.
stusviews Posted December 31, 2017 Posted December 31, 2017 Of course Insteon does not have that issue because it is a monopoly....... Based on anything I know about Insteon and monopolies (more than a lot about both, but not an expert on either), the Insteon protocol is not a monopoly, but a patented idea, based on another patent that has since expired. Some patents are licensed out. X10 did that. Leviton did that with a Z-Wave feature. Not everyone is willing to pay the price. But that's precisely what a patent protects. Apple, too, can be considered a monopoly--but that's not what a monopoly is. There are other computer operating systems available as there are other home automation networks available. Insteon did monopolize on features they offer. But so did Sony, BMW and even Amazon. Can I include Google (Android)? 2
io_guy Posted December 31, 2017 Posted December 31, 2017 Hail was a valid method to get around a stupid patent that shouldn't have existed. The problem with the DZ6HD-1BZ is it's a new Zwave Plus device that still uses it. Its firmware should be updated to remove hail and add the central scene class instead. 1
asbril Posted December 31, 2017 Posted December 31, 2017 Yes it is. I can buy with confidence knowing what I am getting myself into. I don't have to do alot of programming just to get basic features that comes with every device. I know, and totally respect, that many on this forum are Insteon fans. I also started with X-10 & Insteon and may have chosen another hub than ISY were it not for my initial set-up. Our respective preference for Insteon or Zwave (or combination) depends very much on our personal needs and experiences. I have gone Zwave all the way and don't look back. I just noticed the new Homeseer switches, just got my automatic curtains working on Zwave, and I don't miss Insteon. But as I said, I fully respect those that still root for Insteon.
asbril Posted December 31, 2017 Posted December 31, 2017 Based on anything I know about Insteon and monopolies (more than a lot about both, but not an expert on either), the Insteon protocol is not a monopoly, but a patented idea, based on another patent that has since expired. Some patents are licensed out. X10 did that. Leviton did that with a Z-Wave feature. Not everyone is willing to pay the price. But that's precisely what a patent protects. Apple, too, can be considered a monopoly--but that's not what a monopoly is. There are other computer operating systems available as there are other home automation networks available. Insteon did monopolize on features they offer. But so did Sony, BMW and even Amazon. Can I include Google (Android)? Stu, A monopoly is not necessarily a legal condition. Maybe other companies could use the Insteon patent and sell competing products, but because there is no other seller of Insteon products, for us consumers this is a monopoly.
paulbates Posted December 31, 2017 Posted December 31, 2017 SmartenIT (SimpleHomeNet) creates and sells insteon compatible devices... including their ezseries. I don't understand "willing to pay the price"? I've not found that zwave switches that are peers to insteon switches (scenes, signal local status changes) are less money. The HS 100 zwave is $49.50. I can drive to Menards and put a dualband switchlinc dimmer in my cart for $49.97. 1
lilyoyo1 Posted December 31, 2017 Posted December 31, 2017 I agree that the ZWave market is fractured and forked. I guess it really goes back to the Sigma certification process either being too loose or they just weren't enforcing it. A true 'standard' would not have these issues. As to the lawsuit, I think there is something there as Hail is not just deprecated but obsolete as of 1/2017. Leviton is still selling these devices as certified when they actually aren't currently certified. Or, the current certification means nothing. Somewhat like sticking a UL label on something that no longer meets code. I can't comment on any of the insteon shtuff. I was and am going to avoid all PLC stuff. Supposedly UPB is good stuff but I will newer know it. I spec'd the optimizers and inverter for my solar array as the quoted Enphase inverters used PL comms for reporting. I have had enough of that with X10. Then, I ended up stepping into another mud pit with Zwave. I think as it matures it will get more reliable. I think companies will eventually just settle on a standard set (or subset) of the commands. That's still not ground for a lawsuit. Certification of a device does not mean they have to use everything that the certification offers. A classic device can still receive certification as long as it has"some" of the features. It's unfortunate, but mfg can still do what they want. I want to like zwave. They have some great products. I just can't get behind them until they get rid of this guessing game.
stusviews Posted December 31, 2017 Posted December 31, 2017 I don't understand "willing to pay the price"? I've not found that zwave switches that are peers to insteon switches (scenes, signal local status changes) are less money. The reference, "willing to pray the price," was in reference to other manufacturers paying to use some or all the features of a patent to the patent holder, in other words, to make a compatible device. It was not meant to be a cost comparison for retail items. I should have been clearer. BTW, there are actually few Insteon compatible devices. Those manufacturers were willing to pay the price that Insteon Labs asked for, probably after a bit of bargaining 1
stusviews Posted December 31, 2017 Posted December 31, 2017 (edited) I want to like zwave. They have some great products. I just can't get behind them until they get rid of this guessing game. I do use Z-Wave. There is no Insteon compatible device that has nearly the features of Z-Wave locks. I already installed same key Schlage door locks and dead bolts when we purchased based on their style, features and reputation, later upgrading to push-button control (one less key to carry), so transitioning to Schlage Z-Wave look-alikes was easy. I did not like their fan controller and went back to Insteon. And I do use a z-Wave plug-in motion sensor. Edited December 31, 2017 by stusviews
stusviews Posted December 31, 2017 Posted December 31, 2017 Stu, A monopoly is not necessarily a legal condition. Maybe other companies could use the Insteon patent and sell competing products, but because there is no other seller of Insteon products, for us consumers this is a monopoly. See the last sentence of post #58. A monopoly does not allow compatibility on any feature at all and refuses to even offer a feature at any price.
asbril Posted January 1, 2018 Posted January 1, 2018 See the last sentence of post #58. A monopoly does not allow compatibility on any feature at all and refuses to even offer a feature at any price. I understand Stu. As I said earlier, part of our comments is based on personal experience, needs and preferences. In French they 'les gouts et les couleurs ne se discutent pas' (One should not discuss taste and colors). In other words, there is no right answer to personal preferences. I see the multitude of suppliers in Zwave more as a positive, and you see it more as a negative (because of the different features and settings). I agree that Zwave does not yet have an equivalent to Insteon for fan control, but I bet you that this will come soon.
lilyoyo1 Posted January 1, 2018 Posted January 1, 2018 I do use Z-Wave. There is no Insteon compatible device that has nearly the features of Z-Wave locks. I already installed same key Schlage door locks and dead bolts when we purchased based on their style, features and reputation, later upgrading to push-button control (one less key to carry), so transitioning to Schlage Z-Wave look-alikes was easy. I did not like their fan controller and went back to Insteon. And I do use a z-Wave plug-in motion sensor. I use them too for sensors and locks. For network repeating I use the outlets (they aren't in use). Need necitates use not desire (outside of sensors)
lilyoyo1 Posted January 1, 2018 Posted January 1, 2018 I understand Stu. As I said earlier, part of our comments is based on personal experience, needs and preferences. In French they 'les gouts et les couleurs ne se discutent pas' (One should not discuss taste and colors). In other words, there is no right answer to personal preferences. I see the multitude of suppliers in Zwave more as a positive, and you see it more as a negative (because of the different features and settings). I agree that Zwave does not yet have an equivalent to Insteon for fan control, but I bet you that this will come soon. I understand what you mean though I do find it ironic in the sense that you still end up using only one manufacturer for your system. 1
stusviews Posted January 1, 2018 Posted January 1, 2018 Z-Wave started as a protocol as did X10 and Insteon. Z-Wave evolved into an alliance, which made the protocol freely available. That's good as it allows manufacturers to freely produce compatible devices. But is also allows manufacturers to add features that they can patent or even not include. It's debatable whether that's good or frustrating for the buyer. I am very comfortable with Insteon and their much wider selection of products. But I have no problem buying and praising Z-Wave device when they exceed what Insteon offers. Oh, what's the bet and how soon is soon? After all, it should be easy. The Insteon solution is practically identical to extant RF fan controllers including size and shape And enjoy the upcoming year to your fullest. 1
asbril Posted January 1, 2018 Posted January 1, 2018 Z-Wave started as a protocol as did X10 and Insteon. Z-Wave evolved into an alliance, which made the protocol freely available. That's good as it allows manufacturers to freely produce compatible devices. But is also allows manufacturers to add features that they can patent or even not include. It's debatable whether that's good or frustrating for the buyer. I am very comfortable with Insteon and their much wider selection of products. But I have no problem buying and praising Z-Wave device when they exceed what Insteon offers. Oh, what's the bet and how soon is soon? After all, it should be easy. The Insteon solution is practically identical to extant RF fan controllers including size and shape And enjoy the upcoming year to your fullest. The bet is that before July 2018 there will be a ZWave equivalent for Fanlinc...... and lunch on me when you are in Miami
stusviews Posted January 1, 2018 Posted January 1, 2018 Accepted. Lunch or dinner and/or breakfast and a place to stay when you're on the other coast. 1
TrojanHorse Posted January 1, 2018 Posted January 1, 2018 Accepted here too on similar terms. Assuming bet was placed forum-wide you’re giving good odds then LOL Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
stusviews Posted January 1, 2018 Posted January 1, 2018 Accepted here too on similar terms. Assuming bet was placed forum-wide you’re giving good odds then LOL Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Nope, my acceptance was in response to asbril's prediction. You may be welcome to join in, but you haven't stated which side you're on 1
asbril Posted January 1, 2018 Posted January 1, 2018 (edited) Nope, my acceptance was in response to asbril's prediction. You may be welcome to join in, but you haven't stated which side you're on Stu, I am not sure that I want a Trojan Horse in on our bet Edited January 1, 2018 by asbril
stusviews Posted January 1, 2018 Posted January 1, 2018 This is, of course, only between fun for us. Anyone can offer to place a bet, but it has to be accepted. If someone wants to bet against me, then they better make an offer I can't refuse. They would also have to agree to my terms. Actually, any two (or more) can bet between themselves without involving us at all. We've covered the U.S., coast to coast. It's time to go international 1
Recommended Posts