asbril Posted January 10, 2018 Posted January 10, 2018 What do you all think about this quote from NYT Tech page : Brian, hi. I'm hoping that CES will bring announcements for in-wall light switch dimmers that don't require me to buy a separate hub. I don't need Alexa in my light switch, though I do want it to talk with her. Ideally, the same company would also have in-wall on/off switches and outlet controllers, so I don't need to have different apps to manage different switches. Thanks! Adam Henry, Santa Cruz, CA Adam, I understand — a separate bridge or hub, which establishes a connection between your Wi-Fi router and a smart home device, is ugly and a waste of space. The good news for you is I did see some bridge-free light switch dimmers at CES. One example is Belkin’s Wemo dimmer switch, which only requires a Wi-Fi connection to work with Amazon’s Alexa and Google’s Assistant. I think you will continue to see companies shift away from hubs toward Wi-Fi connections built into their appliances. The downside of this, in my experience, is that Wi-Fi-equipped smart home devices occasionally lose their connection with your Wi-Fi router, and you sometimes have to power cycle them (turn the power off and back on) to regain a connection. With a light dimmer, that might require flipping your circuit breaker, but hopefully not.
lilyoyo1 Posted January 10, 2018 Posted January 10, 2018 Home control (glorified remote)= no hub. Due to the simple nature of things, these systems are best for those who want to interact with their homes without much effort. This means cloud based and limited options. The biggest downside would be long term viability of any given system due to shutdowns or bankruptcy. Full automation= Some type of hub. Those looking for true automation will need a hub. There is no better way to give the logic and capabilities that a company wants than having a hub. Apps are nice for controlling things but there are limitations. The biggest reason is simply long term capabilities. Depending on system, you own it. You don't have to worry about a company going out of business or simply shutting down servers because they want something new.
paulbates Posted January 10, 2018 Posted January 10, 2018 Home control (glorified remote)= no hub. Due to the simple nature of things, these systems are best for those who want to interact with their homes without much effort. This means cloud based and limited options. The biggest downside would be long term viability of any given system due to shutdowns or bankruptcy. Full automation= Some type of hub. Those looking for true automation will need a hub. There is no better way to give the logic and capabilities that a company wants than having a hub. Apps are nice for controlling things but there are limitations. The biggest reason is simply long term capabilities. Depending on system, you own it. You don't have to worry about a company going out of business or simply shutting down servers because they want something new. Its interesting how that gap has widen in the last year, "remote control" vs "true automation". There is a big and expanding market for those that want to use their phone / tablet as a remote and not automate much further. There's growth in the controller space, but it doesn't seem to be keeping pace. The other thing is wifi as PLC. As good as I feel about my wifi, I can not imagine a situation where I would use wifi as layer 0 of the basic PLC for swtiches for lighting, fans, things that occupants directly want to turn on and off and depend on. Devices like thermostats and sprinkler controllers that can manage on their own if wifi is not there? sure. But not things that use messaging (scenes) that may or may not work because of wifi (or lack there of) Paul
JimMc Posted January 19, 2018 Posted January 19, 2018 Glad to see all the new Insteon gear announced at CES... Seriously from what I've seen recently, the whole home automation space is becoming so fragmented it is killing all of the participants. Multiple competing standards, cloud-based tie-ins, and janky hardware is no way to grow a market.
paulbates Posted January 19, 2018 Posted January 19, 2018 Glad to see all the new Insteon gear announced at CES... Seriously from what I've seen recently, the whole home automation space is becoming so fragmented it is killing all of the participants. Multiple competing standards, cloud-based tie-ins, and janky hardware is no way to grow a market. Sarcasm is always appreciated...its my first lanaguage :D Paul
Teken Posted January 19, 2018 Posted January 19, 2018 I view is the first company to support more than one protocol will have an advantage over others. What should these companies support?!? My belief is one open standard like WiFi and the others can be anything the vendors feels has legs and will make it over the long run. Since Sigma (Z-Wave) was just bought out it would be a classic and easy move to integrate both Z-Wave / ZigBee into the next generation of hardware. If the company has a long term vision integrating WiFi with the other two makes sense . . . Going this route ensures you attract new comers while also keeping existing clients which also see great value in a multi protocol piece of hardware. It's a given something that includes three different standards would cost more but for me I would be willing to spend that extra if all three were supported and the hardware was rock solid. I'm not sure where Insteon / Smartlabs is in the next generation of hardware but sure hope the *Wish List* is being reviewed for those ideas. One project I'm supporting has gone with an old concept of simply offering the user the ability to swap out different modules to enable X vs Y features / protocols. I'm not sure why none of the big vendors haven't grabbed a brain and gone this route?!?! It never ceases to amaze me that it always takes the small guy to push the envelope before the larger companies even consider heading toward the same direction . . . 2018 will offer some big to small milestones in the HA world for sure though ~ Watch this space!
JimMc Posted January 20, 2018 Posted January 20, 2018 I hear Amazon is backing Zigbee, what about Google, Apple, and that puny outfit that calls itself Microsoft? In this dance of elephants, Silicon Labs is a mouse. SmartLabs, "the world's leading authority on electronic home automation and improvement" is not even a fly speck. I'm not buying one damn module from anyone until the dust settles.
asbril Posted January 20, 2018 Author Posted January 20, 2018 I hear Amazon is backing Zigbee, what about Google, Apple, and that puny outfit that calls itself Microsoft? In this dance of elephants, Silicon Labs is a mouse. SmartLabs, "the world's leading authority on electronic home automation and improvement" is not even a fly speck. I'm not buying one damn module from anyone until the dust settles. When "the dust settles" it will be the quiet time before another storms comes.... In other words, technology moves fast and constantly., It may well be that in a few years my +/- 60 Zwave devices will be obsolete and that I may want to replace them with a new technology......... and then a few years later that technology will be obsolete as well. As the French say, 'Waiting for Godot".... In the meantime, while you watch from the sideline, I enjoy the home automation that I have
larryllix Posted January 20, 2018 Posted January 20, 2018 When "the dust settles" it will be the quiet time before another storms comes.... In other words, technology moves fast and constantly., It may well be that in a few years my +/- 60 Zwave devices will be obsolete and that I may want to replace them with a new technology......... and then a few years later that technology will be obsolete as well. As the French say, 'Waiting for Godot".... In the meantime, while you watch from the sideline, I enjoy the home automation that I have You have to pick your dust.
mwester Posted January 20, 2018 Posted January 20, 2018 I hear Amazon is backing Zigbee, what about Google, Apple, and that puny outfit that calls itself Microsoft? In this dance of elephants, Silicon Labs is a mouse. SmartLabs, "the world's leading authority on electronic home automation and improvement" is not even a fly speck. I'm not buying one damn module from anyone until the dust settles. Wilber (my trusty horse) and I are quite happy here, while we watch this mad, crazy, new-model-every-year thing going on with them thar new-fangled auto-mo-biles. Things were looking pretty good, there, for a while a few decades ago, what with Detroit down to only about three different manufacturers. Then those danged Europeans and the Japanese had to step in, and suddenly we had a dozen competing standards all over again. And now there's that smart-aleck-y Tesla dude in Californy what is making auto-mo-biles powered by nothin' but batteries -- crazy thing there is that again, he ain't done nuttin' t'make his 'lectric car compatible with any of the batteries I can find in my general store here! Which just goes to show that Wilber and I are doin' the right thing, waiting til all the dust settles. (Hope that happens soon, 'cause both Wilber and I are getting a bit up there in age, and the trip to town is feeling a bit longer every year...)
lilyoyo1 Posted January 20, 2018 Posted January 20, 2018 When "the dust settles" it will be the quiet time before another storms comes.... In other words, technology moves fast and constantly., It may well be that in a few years my +/- 60 Zwave devices will be obsolete and that I may want to replace them with a new technology......... and then a few years later that technology will be obsolete as well. As the French say, 'Waiting for Godot".... In the meantime, while you watch from the sideline, I enjoy the home automation that I have I completely agree with you on this. There's always going to be something new coming out. Enjoy what you have while you have it and deal with the rest when the time comes. The wonderful thing about all of this is the hardware will still work even if any company folds up shop.
stusviews Posted January 20, 2018 Posted January 20, 2018 When "the dust settles" it will be the quiet time before another storms comes.... In other words, technology moves fast and constantly., It may well be that in a few years my +/- 60 Zwave devices will be obsolete and that I may want to replace them with a new technology......... and then a few years later that technology will be obsolete as well. As the French say, 'Waiting for Godot".... In the meantime, while you watch from the sideline, I enjoy the home automation that I have I agree, there will always be something better and, often, less costly. How old is your computer, your car, your TV. Enjoy the now. Later is another time.
JimMc Posted January 20, 2018 Posted January 20, 2018 I agree, there will always be something better and, often, less costly. How old is your computer, your car, your TV. Enjoy the now. Later is another time. I just sold my main computer, a Xeon "cheese grater" Mac Pro from 2010, and I'm typing this on a 17" 2011 MBP. My car? It's a 2009 model -- runs great but no Bluetooth. Just bought a 4K OLED TV and went through the hassles of upgrading all the other AV components (the Goodwill store loves us). Yes, technology changes and we get older, sometimes wiser. IMO it is not possible to "enjoy the now" in home automation, and it's been that way since X10 in the '80s. HA is what I've come to call a "project of the mind", an illusion/pipe dream. Far from the smiling faces portrayed in the marketing, most of the hardware and software is just crap in terms of reliability. It does feed a strange place in the minds of guys like us who love to tinker, and it earns a living for the few professionals that dare to venture in.
oberkc Posted January 20, 2018 Posted January 20, 2018 IMO it is not possible to "enjoy the now" in home automation Really?! Your expectations must be different than mine. What is keeping you from the fun of home automation? I have been enjoying home automation for several (probably about 10) years. I picked insteon in 2008 after playing around with x-10 for a few years. I now run z-wave along with insteon, and just purchased several more insteon devices. My automation system includes scheduled events and responds to other events. My level of control over the house has never been better. What is not to like? For me, a key to this is to pick a system that runs independent of the cloud. I don't worry much about the future...my system will continue to work. Is it a little discouraging that there are so many devices that don't talk to each other? Sure. On the other hand, there is some joy in finding ways to make these things work. Do I worry that insteon may not be around in a few years? Sure. But this would not immediately render my system non-functional and I have alternate paths forward. I am with stusviews here. I see no problems enjoying the now.
Teken Posted January 20, 2018 Posted January 20, 2018 While I agree simply waiting on the side lines in hopes to see that perfect HA hardware makes little sense. None of this is cheap and few have the finances to invest and rip out should that protocol not be the correct one. HA has never been a cheap sport never mind the investment of personal time.
apostolakisl Posted January 20, 2018 Posted January 20, 2018 Unless wifi standards change, there is no way anyone serious about home automation will not have a bridge. Personally, I don't understand why a bridge is so distateful to people. The ISY/PLM is a nothing thing that you set next to your router. BFD! But back to wifi. You will crash your wifi when you put 100 devices on it. That is about what mine would have if every individual device in my house were directly connected to wifi. At one point I did some research on how many connections wifi could handle and it was no where near 100. I'm not saying a high end commercial wifi setup can't handle it, but who wants to spend $1000 on their wifi to avoid a bridge? And finally, the "bridge" device (in our case ISY) is the controller. If you want to have all of your switches play together, you have to have a single place to do all that . . . so you have a controller, so why not have it be a bridge too. I think the peopel asking for direct wifi are just naive to what it means to have home automation. Like folks have said above, these people just want remote control. That is a very different thing.
oberkc Posted January 20, 2018 Posted January 20, 2018 Unless wifi standards change, there is no way anyone serious about home automation will not have a bridge. Personally, I don't understand why a bridge is so distateful to people. The ISY/PLM is a nothing thing that you set next to your router. BFD! But back to wifi. You will crash your wifi when you put 100 devices on it. That is about what mine would have if every individual device in my house were directly connected to wifi. At one point I did some research on how many connections wifi could handle and it was no where near 100. I'm not saying a high end commercial wifi setup can't handle it, but who wants to spend $1000 on their wifi to avoid a bridge? And finally, the "bridge" device (in our case ISY) is the controller. If you want to have all of your switches play together, you have to have a single place to do all that . . . so you have a controller, so why not have it be a bridge too. I think the peopel asking for direct wifi are just naive to what it means to have home automation. Like folks have said above, these people just want remote control. That is a very different thing. I don't know what my limits are (netgear orbi system) but I have nearly 50 devices so far. I hope I don't run out of space soon. I agree with the bridge/hub argument. Whether it be your computer or a separate device (my preference) one likely needs something to host the logic part (schedules, if/then/else). I don't want to rely on the cloud for that logic, so a bridge/hub seems like an obvious need if one gets into home automation.
paulbates Posted January 20, 2018 Posted January 20, 2018 ... But back to wifi. You will crash your wifi when you put 100 devices on it. That is about what mine would have if every individual device in my house were directly connected to wifi. At one point I did some research on how many connections wifi could handle and it was no where near 100. I'm not saying a high end commercial wifi setup can't handle it, but who wants to spend $1000 on their wifi to avoid a bridge? ... And its worse than that I think: Configuration. Let's pretend 100 devices work. You'll probably want to know their IP addresses... which means 100 assignments to make in the reservation table. That may be necessary to deal with contention: Contention. Should house light switch operation have network priority over games, streaming, VOIP, Facetime, etc? If yes, then that will have to be configured on a router with sophistication enough to deal with it, and router skills sophisticated enough to configure them. Either putting 100 things in a VLAN and prioritizing that VLAN, or prioritizing the switches traffic type (if its discrete and unique). My router has enough to do. As reliable as it is, it is not on the dependency path for key light switch operation (neither is the ISY or PLM) Paul
dbuss Posted January 20, 2018 Posted January 20, 2018 This is interesting. The Milo Smart Home Speaker (Milo) by Hogar Controls is the first-ever combination smart speaker and smart home hub to include support for Z-Wave Plus and adds multi-platform access for Zigbee, Wi-Fi and Bluetooth devices http://hogarcontrols.com/
asbril Posted January 20, 2018 Author Posted January 20, 2018 This is interesting. The Milo Smart Home Speaker (Milo) by Hogar Controls is the first-ever combination smart speaker and smart home hub to include support for Z-Wave Plus and adds multi-platform access for Zigbee, Wi-Fi and Bluetooth devices http://hogarcontrols.com/, Very interesting indeed. I wonder however whether, for those of us who have already setup ISY Portal with Google Home / Assistant, it adds anything new. For those who did not and who only want home control (versus home automation) it looks good.
lilyoyo1 Posted January 20, 2018 Posted January 20, 2018 While I agree simply waiting on the side lines in hopes to see that perfect HA hardware makes little sense. None of this is cheap and few have the finances to invest and rip out should that protocol not be the correct one. HA has never been a cheap sport never mind the investment of personal time.
Teken Posted January 20, 2018 Posted January 20, 2018 This is interesting. The Milo Smart Home Speaker (Milo) by Hogar Controls is the first-ever combination smart speaker and smart home hub to include support for Z-Wave Plus and adds multi-platform access for Zigbee, Wi-Fi and Bluetooth devices http://hogarcontrols.com/ When I saw this device last year there wasn't much information so thanks for the updated link. I was really interested to give this device a chance until it said its yet another cloud connected device. Sorry, but that is complete fail in my books and won't entertain any kind of cloud controller in my home. Never mind it uses Google as the voice control so that is the next strike and nail in this product for me. Regardless, the hardware is on the surface very nice and appears to be well thought out. The web site is extremely thin in details about this device as to how many devices it supports and what kind. For $149.00 the Milo is going to be a serious contender for other so called smart hubs. Assuming their hardware support is solid and the company will be around in the next ten years. The Pebble switch is very interesting and have to admit I do like it . . .
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