mikek Posted January 17, 2018 Posted January 17, 2018 3000 square feet, two-story, frame and drywall construction, no brick or stone inside, no metallic wallpaper, not an open floor plan. How important is ISY location? I have it somewhat centrally located (so distances are minimized), but what about line of sight?
mwester Posted January 17, 2018 Posted January 17, 2018 Since z-wave is a mesh network, once you have sufficient devices, the ISY can be located pretty much anywhere. And you *will* need multiple z-wave devices to do anything - don't plan on starting unless you have a minimum of four nodes or more. That might be the ISY, the device you intend to use, and couple of Aeon Sirens to act as repeaters (or other secure-capable non-battery-powered z-wave devices to act as repeaters in the mesh. What you outline for construction sounds like there are no obstacles for the 900-MHz signal, but in all likelihood you have interior ductwork in the walls that will act as an RF barrier. A previous house I had (Colonial style) was constructed in such a way that there was, in essence, a wall separating the front from the rear of the house (with doorways, of course) -- and that wall had all the plumbing and ductwork. It made it necessary for me to have two wifi access points for a small 2000 sq ft house with similar construction as you describe. While 900MHz is less affected by ductwork and plumbing than is the 2.4GHz signal for wifi, it's affected non-the-less, and one should plan for that.
asbril Posted January 17, 2018 Posted January 17, 2018 3000 square feet, two-story, frame and drywall construction, no brick or stone inside, no metallic wallpaper, not an open floor plan. How important is ISY location? I have it somewhat centrally located (so distances are minimized), but what about line of sight? I agree with mwester. Our condo is just under 3000 sq.ft and the ISY is at one of the far ends. As all the light switches throughout the condo are Zwave, because of the mesh network of Zwave, I have zero problems. Occasionally I have had an issue with initial set up with a particular new switch to be too far from the ISY. My router is a Google Wifi and, when having an issue with setup of a new switch, I temporarily connect the ISY to one of the Google Wifi pods closer to the switch and that resolves the issue.
dbuss Posted January 17, 2018 Posted January 17, 2018 I have a 3100+ sq. ft. home with living areas on three levels. My ISY is located somewhat centrally on the lower level(basement) and have very good coverage throughout the house with both Insteon and Z-Wave. I have 50+ Insteon devices and 15+ Z-wave devices. The network needed repeaters for both networks in the beginning to get coverage in areas that didn't have dual band devices or not enough Z-Wave devices to create an effective mesh network.
mikek Posted January 17, 2018 Author Posted January 17, 2018 Since z-wave is a mesh network, once you have sufficient devices, the ISY can be located pretty much anywhere. And you *will* need multiple z-wave devices to do anything - don't plan on starting unless you have a minimum of four nodes or more. That might be the ISY, the device you intend to use, and couple of Aeon Sirens to act as repeaters (or other secure-capable non-battery-powered z-wave devices to act as repeaters in the mesh. What you outline for construction sounds like there are no obstacles for the 900-MHz signal, but in all likelihood you have interior ductwork in the walls that will act as an RF barrier. A previous house I had (Colonial style) was constructed in such a way that there was, in essence, a wall separating the front from the rear of the house (with doorways, of course) -- and that wall had all the plumbing and ductwork. It made it necessary for me to have two wifi access points for a small 2000 sq ft house with similar construction as you describe. While 900MHz is less affected by ductwork and plumbing than is the 2.4GHz signal for wifi, it's affected non-the-less, and one should plan for that. I've read a lot about the Aeon sirens being used as repeaters. Since I don't really need sirens, is there anything else (switch, outlet, AC powered multisensor, smart plug, etc.) that is as effective as the sirens?
mwester Posted January 17, 2018 Posted January 17, 2018 Number of units and placement of same can make up the difference -- the sirens just seem to have all the necessary capabilities (secure-capable, always-on, etc) and have excellent coverage (based on info from this forum, even better than the official z-wave repeaters made by the same company!). So, if you have enough other z-wave devices (that can do secure repeating of the signal), in the right places, you don't need sirens. What those devices are, and where they might have to be is unknown. But from experience, I can tell you that the in-wall devices often have much less range (possibly due to the mass of metal around them, and the fact that their antennas are embedded inside the wall once they're installed) -- so placement and quantity of those might be very different compared to plug-in devices. On the other hand, plug-in "wall warts" are just ugly... and that's a problem too. I would advise against doing what I did -- starting out, I placed a bunch of low-ball bids on eBay for various z-wave devices... and discovered that there's generally a reason why a device might be sold for a pittance on eBay (you get what you pay for). I think there's enough information on this forum now so that you can go out and find quality compatible devices, and avoid ending up with a hodge-podge of slightly-different devices with odd quirks and questionable usefulness...
mikek Posted January 17, 2018 Author Posted January 17, 2018 I have a 3100+ sq. ft. home with living areas on three levels. My ISY is located somewhat centrally on the lower level(basement) and have very good coverage throughout the house with both Insteon and Z-Wave. I have 50+ Insteon devices and 15+ Z-wave devices. The network needed repeaters for both networks in the beginning to get coverage in areas that didn't have dual band devices or not enough Z-Wave devices to create an effective mesh network. Insteon aside, you're covering the entire 3100+ square feet, spread over three levels, with about 15 Z-Wave devices? That makes me feel better. I was afraid I'd have to get into the 30+ range before I had a reliable mesh. I have a planned use for about 20 devices, but didn't like the idea of having to buy and install more solely for the purpose of a strong network.
lilyoyo1 Posted January 17, 2018 Posted January 17, 2018 My house is 5400sq ft and my ISY is in the equipment room on 1 side of the house. I use Cooper aspire zwave outlets to repeat the signal to my door locks and sensors. I have about 10 outlets total and 2 leviton RF+ light switches in closets (for testing). So far I haven't had any zwave related issues with my setup. Whether you use insteon or zwave it's something you have to be willing to invest in. Yes it sucks needing to buy additional devices but if you can get some that can serve a purpose as well (even if you don't use it right away), it minimizes the pain. Pretty much all of my outlets are smart outlets (I had mine done when the house was built). I don't use all of them but they are in place for future use should they ever be needed.
mikek Posted January 17, 2018 Author Posted January 17, 2018 My house is 5400sq ft and my ISY is in the equipment room on 1 side of the house. I use Cooper aspire zwave outlets to repeat the signal to my door locks and sensors. I have about 10 outlets total and 2 leviton RF+ light switches in closets (for testing). So far I haven't had any zwave related issues with my setup. Whether you use insteon or zwave it's something you have to be willing to invest in. Yes it sucks needing to buy additional devices but if you can get some that can serve a purpose as well (even if you don't use it right away), it minimizes the pain. Pretty much all of my outlets are smart outlets (I had mine done when the house was built). I don't use all of them but they are in place for future use should they ever be needed. Are those Cooper Aspire outlets security-enabled? I looked on the spec sheet and couldn't find any reference to that. I thought repeaters for door locks (1) should support beaming to improve lock battery life and (2) AES-128 encryption for security. The more I learn the more confused I get!
lilyoyo1 Posted January 17, 2018 Posted January 17, 2018 They are. They work with my locks without issue. Both Cooper (now eaton) and leviton RF+ line have instant Status and secure beaming. I believe the new get zwave+ line also has secure beaming. I just like the look and feel of the Cooper line. It feels like a quality/well made device.
mikek Posted January 17, 2018 Author Posted January 17, 2018 They are. They work with my locks without issue. Both Cooper (now eaton) and leviton RF+ line have instant Status and secure beaming. I believe the new get zwave+ line also has secure beaming. I just like the look and feel of the Cooper line. It feels like a quality/well made device. I brought this up in a previous thread, but I still can't figure out how to tell which devices support encryption and which don't. For example, the spec sheets for the Aeon siren and garage door opener clearly reference AES-128. On the other hand, the Cooper Aspire spec sheets make no mention of that. No do many others. How the heck does anyone know what they're using if the manufacturers don't bother to tell us?
lilyoyo1 Posted January 17, 2018 Posted January 17, 2018 That's the problem with zwave. There is no set standard that applies. I've found asking for others experiences on forums to be your best bet. If you want to ensure future capabilities or encryption, I would stick with the aeotec devices since they are one of the few that supports S2 right now. You won't get the S2 from the ISY at this point but at least it'll be there later. When Cooper updated their devices in 2013, they added secure beaming and instant Status so that their products can work with locks and other secure devices. They are not S2 compliant so if that's important I wouldn't get them. http://www.eaton.com/Eaton/OurCompany/NewsEvents/NewsReleases/PCT_1232934 The GE 14288s are zwave+ and I believe have the S2 encryption. I'm not a fan of those as they feel cheaply made vs the Cooper.
giomania Posted January 17, 2018 Posted January 17, 2018 Did you guys see the thread about Innovelli? It’s a new company getting into Z-Wave. I am waiting for UDI’s new Z-Wave Plus module. I know it may be a long wait, but my house is saturated with Insteon, so I can wait. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
giomania Posted January 17, 2018 Posted January 17, 2018 Number of units and placement of same can make up the difference -- the sirens just seem to have all the necessary capabilities (secure-capable, always-on, etc) and have excellent coverage (based on info from this forum, even better than the official z-wave repeaters made by the same company!). So, if you have enough other z-wave devices (that can do secure repeating of the signal), in the right places, you don't need sirens. What those devices are, and where they might have to be is unknown. But from experience, I can tell you that the in-wall devices often have much less range (possibly due to the mass of metal around them, and the fact that their antennas are embedded inside the wall once they're installed) -- so placement and quantity of those might be very different compared to plug-in devices. On the other hand, plug-in "wall warts" are just ugly... and that's a problem too. I would advise against doing what I did -- starting out, I placed a bunch of low-ball bids on eBay for various z-wave devices... and discovered that there's generally a reason why a device might be sold for a pittance on eBay (you get what you pay for). I think there's enough information on this forum now so that you can go out and find quality compatible devices, and avoid ending up with a hodge-podge of slightly-different devices with odd quirks and questionable usefulness... It sounds like you are assuming metal conduit with metal electrical boxes? That is how they do it here in Illinois, but when I lived in PA and VA they used Romex and plastic electrical boxes. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
KeviNH Posted January 18, 2018 Posted January 18, 2018 I've read a lot about the Aeon sirens being used as repeaters. Since I don't really need sirens, is there anything else (switch, outlet, AC powered multisensor, smart plug, etc.) that is as effective as the sirens? I would expect in-wall switches and outlets, installed in grounded metal boxes, to not be as effective a repeater as a plug-in device that sits above/outside the box. By that same measure, I would expect the MultiSensor (on USB) to be the best repeater, but I don't know of any tests to confirm this theory. Aeotec has said that all "Gen5" plug in units (including the siren) share the same chipset and should all be equally effective repeaters, and supposedly their upcoming "...6" products with "Z-Wave S2" are going to offer further improvements in wireless range. It is not clear whether the USB-powered MultiSensor 6 is as good a repeater as direct plug-in devices. See this thread: https://forum.universal-devices.com/topic/22512-which-is-better-as-a-repeater-multi-sensor-6-or-siren/
mikek Posted January 18, 2018 Author Posted January 18, 2018 Thanks, everyone, for your contributions. I think I have a pretty good handle on the repeaters now, but the line of sight question remains. Should I find a way to keep the ISY out in the open, or will it do well in a centrally located coat closet? If I do the former, it will likely end up at one end of the house but with a clear view of several devices. If I do the latter, the distance to many devices in all directions would be short, but of course it would have the frame and drywall walls on three sides (no ductwork) and bi-fold doors on the fourth. What do you think would be better?
KeviNH Posted January 18, 2018 Posted January 18, 2018 915MHz radio transmissions do fine going through wood and drywall, I'd choose the centrally located coat closet.
dbuss Posted January 18, 2018 Posted January 18, 2018 About the only thing that is consistent with RF coverage is open line of site will in most cases give you the best coverage. Everything between the RF devices will attenuate the signal. This makes it almost impossible to say this is the coverage that you will get. An engineering study before installation will provide pretty accurate coverage in a given area. Most people aren't willing to spend the $$ to do that. Trial and error is to be likely more cost effective. Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
lilyoyo1 Posted January 18, 2018 Posted January 18, 2018 Thanks, everyone, for your contributions. I think I have a pretty good handle on the repeaters now, but the line of sight question remains. Should I find a way to keep the ISY out in the open, or will it do well in a centrally located coat closet? If I do the former, it will likely end up at one end of the house but with a clear view of several devices. If I do the latter, the distance to many devices in all directions would be short, but of course it would have the frame and drywall walls on three sides (no ductwork) and bi-fold doors on the fourth. What do you think would be better?Either is fine as long as you have enough repeaters. If you aren't planning on installing that many devices then I'd stay with a central location. If you're going to have 10-15 devices spread throughout the house then you will probably be ok on the far end. Like I said earlier, my ISY is on the far end of my house and I don't have communication issues. I'm only using 12 hardwired devices to get coverage for my locks and sensors Every house is different (even 2 exact builds can have different experiences) which can impact communication. You'll need to play around with it
pgreen Posted January 22, 2018 Posted January 22, 2018 So i have a nice wifi signal strength app on my smartphone. Any idea is there is a low cost device to show signal strength for zwave. Is that a new market opportunity? Sent from my SM-N950W using Tapatalk
KeviNH Posted January 22, 2018 Posted January 22, 2018 So i have a nice wifi signal strength app on my smartphone. Any idea is there is a low cost device to show signal strength for zwave. Is that a new market opportunity? Sent from my SM-N950W using Tapatalk Aeotec's Range Extender 6 includes an simplistic signal strength indicator. Got a spare $549.00? Z-Wave Alliance members ($250/year) can purchase a Certified Installer Toolkit (CIT) for $299. This includes ZNiffer.and other tools.
pgreen Posted January 23, 2018 Posted January 23, 2018 Does anyone here have experience with this zwave toolbox device? Apparently.... The toolbox is a web-based, flexible tool that will work with any operating system, even smart phones and tablets. The toolbox contains 3 major applications, The Z-Wave Packet Analyzer, the Spectrum Analyzer, and the Network Health Tester. https://www.zwaveproducts.com/shop/brands/zwaveproducts/zwp-tbx-z-wave-toolbox
lilyoyo1 Posted January 23, 2018 Posted January 23, 2018 I haven't used it. However for 250 dollars, I can buy 5 zwave devices to cover my whole house and be able to automate additional things
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