Schlage Z-Wave Connectivity issues

[wdhille]

Hello: I apologize if this has been asked, but I don't think so.... And I'm new....  So I have an ISY 944i Pro that has firmware 4.6.2 And Z-Wave 21100, whatever that means....

 

I have four Schlage Z-Wave locks, and all four worked fine for two weeks. Now, after I did nothing... two of the locks "failed to communicate" It's clear something is communicating from the event viewer, but I don't know enough to fix the problem. So I have tried "healing" the network and "repearing links", but other than send lots of commands to the device, it remains in the unknown state. 

 

I have a pretty good understanding of RF, so I bought three "repeaters and put them within a few feet of the locks. I can talk to the repeaters all day long, and they are rock solid, but the lock fails to communicate with the ISY. 

 

So... before I get out my five pound hammer.... Does anyone have any ideas? These repeaters and everything worked fine for about two weeks...  It's like now the repeaters are not seeing the locks. Although they are ten feet apart and line of site...

 

Thanks

 

Wayne

 

 

 

[stusviews]

You didn't mention which Range Extender/Repeater you're using, but several users including myself found that the Aeotech DSD37 is useless. Choose any from among the Aeon Siren, Doorbell or Gen 6 Repeater. They're all equally effective. The first two each have another function and the latter is least expensive. You'll probably need only one.

 

Location is somewhat important, but not intuitive. For example, I found the siren most effective when placed further away from the Schlage lock, rather than between the Schlage lock and the ISY.

 

Most effective: ISY-->lock--siren

Less effective ISY-->siren--lock

 

Of course, your best location may differ

[wdhille]

Originally I had "Model Aeotec Range Extender 6, Z-Wave Plus repeater. "  They did nothing. Schlage told me to get some other ones. So here is what I have now. These were not available on Amazon, only direct, and they cost $50 each...

[wdhille]

it's like the repeaters won't do their job..... "does not support association"

 

 

[stusviews]

Unlike the other Aeon repeaters, the Gen6 repeater must be placed into security mode in order to support locks. Did you follow the instructions to do that? I'm successfully using several Schlage locks.

[wdhille]

well..  I did not change any of the parameters of my ZW4101.... They didn't come with a manual, but I'll look into it, because right now they are 50 dollar paper weights! I can set parameters, but I didn't see anything about security modes?

 

Thank you. 

[lilyoyo1]

It must be close to the ISY when adding in secure mode. I bought the new smart 6 switch and it kept failing (in secure mode) until I was within a few feet of my ISY. Make sure you double tap it in order to add in secure mode.

[wdhille]

So I returned the Aeon repeaters to Amazon, I have the ones Schlage suggested made by GE/Jasco. IS there some secure mode on them I'm missing maybe? Mine is ZW4101 or 45603 is the other part number. Thank you

[stusviews]

well..  I did not change any of the parameters of my ZW4101.... They didn't come with a manual, but I'll look into it, because right now they are 50 dollar paper weights! I can set parameters, but I didn't see anything about security modes?

 

Thank you. 

 

Wow. When I bought the repeater last August, it was $30. A check at Amazon indicates that the price is still $30. Seems like you got something other than the Aeon Gen 5 Repeater/Range Extender. Also, it seems odd that there were no instructions included.

 

BTW, there are no parameters to set, it's all done by pressing the set button.

[lilyoyo1]

So I returned the Aeon repeaters to Amazon, I have the ones Schlage suggested made by GE/Jasco. IS there some secure mode on them I'm missing maybe? Mine is ZW4101 or 45603 is the other part number. Thank you

 

I dont see anything that points to those supporting secure beaming. However, if Schlage says they work then I'm assuming that they do. When it comes to GE/Jasco, simply adding the device will add it to the ISY with whatever parameters it takes to communicate with secure devices.

[wdhille]

well, I'm new to this stuff, but my Insteon devices all seem rock solid. The Z-Wave is flakey as hell,.. so I'm maybe doing something wrong, the Z-Wave module is flawed, or maybe the UDI implementation is off. I have removed all my devices, updated the Z-Wave firmware, and factory reset the dongle. I can see comms going to the lock with the viewer, but as soon as I try to lock or unlock it fails. So I put a repeater two feet from the lock, it connects ok, it shows the lock as a neighbor, but it doesn't work.... I'm starting to think the controller is bad

[stusviews]

There's nothing wrong with the implementation of the ISY Z-Wave module. Many posters have success and some even use Z-Wave devices exclusively. I don't know about the GE/Jasco repeater, but anyone who has posted about Schlage lock communication has indicated that the Aeon Sire, Doorbell or Gen 6 repeater was a solution. So, I'll ask again, did you ensure that the repeater was in secure mode?

Also, see my previous post about location. Close to the ISY is not always a solution. My repeater worked best when it was furthest from the ISY. The lock itself usually needs to be close to the ISY to add it successfully, but you already accomplished that.

 

[lilyoyo1]

Id start completely fresh. Bring the lock close to the ISY (a couple of feet), exclude it and the re-add it back to the ISY. Test it right there. Does the lock/unlock work properly? If so re-install the lock at its location run a network heal and then re-test. If it is still failing, either your repeater needs to be in a different place, you need more, or it doesn't repeat secure messages. At that point, I would recommend picking up one of the repeaters that has been mentioned on here numerous times as those are what most (i'd have to say all) forum members have found success with. 

As Stusviews mentioned, to many people have found success with the Zwave module for me to assume its bad. most people want to blame the controller or everything else rather than the situation itself. Since you were able to add the lock, I highly doubt its the ISY. Its either environmental, user error, or improper hardware. 

[wdhille]

Regarding your question  "did you ensure that the repeater was in secure mode?"

 

The answer is no. And no because there didn't appear to be a "secure" option on that device when I connected to it with the ISY. So where might that option show up?? Not in the 2 font instructions that came with it!!!   

More later

[vjk]

3 hours ago, wdhille said:

Regarding your question  "did you ensure that the repeater was in secure mode?"

I do not know how this myth of the repeater needing to be in  the "secure" mode originated.

Say, you you have a path of 1,2..., n-1, n, where 1 is the controller and 'n' is the lock. None of nodes 2.. n-1 needs to be capable of encryption/decryption. Why would they need to be ? The payload was already encrypted by the controller and it's only the lock that needs to decrypt it.

What node n-1 needs to be capable of is something called "beaming" which is bunch of special zwave frames targeted at the lock in order to wake it up. It would be almost impossible to find a modern zwave device, be it a repeater or switch or anything else except natch battery operated devices, incapable of beaming.

[stusviews]

The manual is under download. Secure mode is on page 2. https://www.homecontrols.com/Aeotec-Z-Wave-Range-Extender-6-Gen5-AEZW117

[wdhille]

Well, the encryption is an interesting question, but at this point the Aeotec are back at amazon. A lot of this is a learning experience for me.... And I believe I've made some forward progress on the Schlage Locks and Z-wave. I'm going to start a new thread just to document what I've learned in the past few weeks. 

[vjk]

1 hour ago, stusviews said:

The manual is under download. Secure mode is on page 2. https://www.homecontrols.com/Aeotec-Z-Wave-Range-Extender-6-Gen5-AEZW117

The manual description means that you can securely communicate with the repeater itself because it supports  the secure command class:https://products.z-wavealliance.org/products/1966/classes. The previous model did not support secure communication with the repeater: https://products.z-wavealliance.org/products/752/classes. Both models also supports associations.  It is not clear why would anyone want to talk to the repeater or establish associations.

With one of my yale locks,  a thermostat re-transmits the original controller frame, bit for bit, without being a secure device -- it's an ordinary RCS TZ-45 without any encryption capabilities, but can beam.  The thermostat does not support any secure commands: https://products.z-wavealliance.org/products/82

[stusviews]

If you're still having problems, I (and many others) have found the Aeon Siren to be a really good solution for Schlage. It's already in security mode.

BTW, I haven't even tested the siren part.

[Bumbershoot]

39 minutes ago, stusviews said:

If you're still having problems, I (and many others) have found the Aeon Siren to be a really good solution for Schlage. It's already in security mode.

BTW, I haven't even tested the siren part.

It works, and it's LOUD!  I use a couple of different tones to identify various things (such as fire, break-in, etc.).  It's too loud for daily use.

[Irakandjii]

18 hours ago, vjk said:

The manual description means that you can securely communicate with the repeater itself because it supports  the secure command class:https://products.z-wavealliance.org/products/1966/classes. The previous model did not support secure communication with the repeater: https://products.z-wavealliance.org/products/752/classes. Both models also supports associations.  It is not clear why would anyone want to talk to the repeater or establish associations.

With one of my yale locks,  a thermostat re-transmits the original controller frame, bit for bit, without being a secure device -- it's an ordinary RCS TZ-45 without any encryption capabilities, but can beam.  The thermostat does not support any secure commands: https://products.z-wavealliance.org/products/82

Thanks for this post.  When I get some time, I will research further to see if I can explain the behavior I observed regarding secure mode as a necessity for success with a lock.

I had a situation where my Schlage BE469 failed to function until I put the extender in secure mode. 

Now, I am really curious why this was the case.

What you are saying makes engineering sense, as I would not expect the payload's content to matter to a repeater.  Usually just the addressing "headers" and routing tables are used.  

I have not found a substantive engineering resource to confirm how this protocol works under various options.  Would you have a link to those to help me on my way to a better understanding?

 

 

 

[vjk]

4 hours ago, Irakandjii said:

  Would you have a link to those to help me on my way to a better understanding?

While Sigma Design released some info : http://zwavepublic.com/specifications, they did not provide any description of either the Serial API, or the RF protocol.

Basic zwave RF frame layout was standardized a while ago and PHY/MAC layers description is available online: https://www.itu.int/rec/T-REC-G.9959-201501-I/en

The payload and the routing layer, however, is not described anywhere, but it is possible to figure out some commands and parameters by looking at the payload bits in the RF capture. The hex command class representation and parameters  are available from Sigma docs.

[wdhille]

On 2/12/2018 at 7:58 PM, stusviews said:

If you're still having problems, I (and many others) have found the Aeon Siren to be a really good solution for Schlage. It's already in security mode.

BTW, I haven't even tested the siren part.

I ordered two more of the Inovelli devices yesterday. They talk reliably to the ISY and then to my Schlages. I'll pick up a siren too, only because everyone needs a good siren!