Buying a SmartThings hub. Ditch ISY OR, use them both together?

[abuttino]

Because of a dismal start to 5.x (2 alpha updates a year), plus, I have too many products in my home that communicate with several other protocols. It would seem that it was time to start thinking about something else. Hue, LIFX, Harmony Elite, ZWave, Nest (Doorbell, Thermo, cameras), rPi, Eventghost with iR for amp/tv, Android TV, Amazon Fire Stick, and soon, Zigbee.

 

The polyglot is stuck in alpha stages because of 5.x. with little to support some of the best parts of my HA system.

 

I like some of the simplicity of the ISY, but I could probably sell off all my switches and other Insteon stuff to pay for the small amount of switches I want.

 

It seems like Insteon just doesn't want to be a leader in home automation. I blame none of this on UDI, just in case you were thinking I was.

 

All in all, I have about 300 network resources, it would be a pain. However, as of now, I'm not using a single Insteon unit other than the PLM to make the ISY work.

 

So! The million dollar question, should I keep the ISY around for the iR and network resources, or, just transfer it all to the Smartthings hub?

 

 

 

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[kissfan]

Put z-wave in your ISY and keep trucking. I dumped my Insteon last time my PLM died and took the entire system offline. I’m through with Insteon.


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[DrLumen]

One thing to consider is ST is all cloud based. The only way to control devices on the ST hub is via Alexa or their phone app. Timers, sunset/sunrise, scenes, are all set via the app so the programming with it is limited. If your internet goes down, nothing will work. They are trying to shift some control locally but that is a work in progress.

But, ST is slick, seamless, refined and stable.

I wanted control within my walls so I dumped ST and bought the ISY. The ISY is more flexible but crude compared to ST. I tried to get both to work but ST doesn't want to be second fiddle and Samsung really doesn't support it being a secondary controller. I never could get the ISY to act as a secondary controller but wasn't too motivated as, again, I wanted the primary control in house.

As always, YMMV.

Edited February 16, 2018 by DrLumen

[asbril]

55 minutes ago, kissfan said:

Put z-wave in your ISY and keep trucking. I dumped my Insteon last time my PLM died and took the entire system offline. I’m through with Insteon.


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I could not agree more. I started with X10 and added Insteon. That is why I got ISY. With ISY I discovered Zwave and when the PLM stopped working (thankfully only having  2 or 3 Insteon devices), I went ZWave all the way.  Yes there was some cost in replacing my X10 and Insteon devices, but I am a very happy camper with the combination of ISY and Zwave.

In this forum there are many loyal fans of Insteon and I understand this, especially when they have invested in Insteon big time. There are a few Insteon devices that do not exist in Zwave ( Fan- Fanlamp combination), but Zwave is growing fast while Insteon is pretty much stagnant.

Edited February 16, 2018 by asbril

[abuttino]

I do have a ZWave in my ISY. That doesn't really help all the other protocols I use, unfortunately.

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[paulbates]

If your primary requirement is the support of that diversity of devices and you aren't willing to use V5 in alpha and don't want to wait (all understandable) it sounds like smarthings is the way to go.

If you can integrate the ISY as at some level it would probably make sense to keep your investment in $ and learning curve and consider other duties for it in the future.

Paul 

[stusviews]

1 hour ago, asbril said:

There are a few Insteon devices that do not exist in Zwave ( Fan- Fanlamp combination), but Zwave is growing fast while Insteon is pretty much stagnant.

No matter how fast Z-Wave is growing, an increase in the number of products available is of no avail if the new products do not include replacements for Insteon devices that are still not available as Z-Wave devices, to wit, both the FanLinc and the multi-button keypads.

OTOH, no Insteon product comes close to Z-Wave compatible locks.

BTW, what are some of the new Z-Wave devices (e.g., did not exist)? I do agree that there are significant advances in the Z-Wave protocol which leads to improved, but not necessarily new products

[asbril]

8 minutes ago, stusviews said:

No matter how fast Z-Wave is growing, an increase in the number of products available is of no avail if the new products do not include replacements for Insteon devices that are still not available as Z-Wave devices, to wit, both the FanLinc and the multi-button keypads.

OTOH, no Insteon product comes close to Z-Wave compatible locks.

BTW, what are some of the new Z-Wave devices (e.g., did not exist)? I do agree that there are significant advances in the Z-Wave protocol which leads to improved, but not necessarily new products

Inoveli is coming out (this April) with battery powered 3 &  5 button Zwave wall switches (  https://inovelli.com/zwave-switches/  ). They also plan to come out this Summer with a Fan / Fanlamp combination. Battery powered is not as good as line powered, but my point is that Zwave has more future and will catch up with the Insteon devices that currently do not exist in Zwave.

Just look at the new Homeseer 200+ dimmer switches. Great new features, though I needed (and still do) Bumbershoot's help to set these up.

Edited February 16, 2018 by asbril

[kissfan]

No matter how fast Z-Wave is growing, an increase in the number of products available is of no avail if the new products do not include replacements for Insteon devices that are still not available as Z-Wave devices, to wit, both the FanLinc and the multi-button keypads.
OTOH, no Insteon product comes close to Z-Wave compatible locks.
BTW, what are some of the new Z-Wave devices (e.g., did not exist)? I do agree that there are significant advances in the Z-Wave protocol which leads to improved, but not necessarily new products

There are z-wave fan controls.

http://www.z-wave.com/shop-z-wave-smart-home-products/smart-fan-control-ge-jasco-ge-z-wave-plus-wireless-smart-fan-speed-control-3-speed



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[asbril]

22 minutes ago, kissfan said:

 

There are z-wave fan controls.

http://www.z-wave.com/shop-z-wave-smart-home-products/smart-fan-control-ge-jasco-ge-z-wave-plus-wireless-smart-fan-speed-control-3-speed



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We are talking about a double switch, controlling both the fan and the fan lamp.

[abuttino]

If your primary requirement is the support of that diversity of devices and you aren't willing to use V5 in alpha and don't want to wait (all understandable) it sounds like smarthings is the way to go.
If you can integrate the ISY as at some level it would probably make sense to keep your investment in $ and learning curve and consider other duties for it in the future.
Paul 

Looking at the face of Smartthings, it's extremely simple, but I haven't even gotten to the programming such as Pistons. Not a stranger to Python and will give it a go. But local control of Eventghost is one of the best things I have on the ISY. It turns things off that aren't smart like my amp and TV.

Hopefully, I can do internal http calls, that's going to be pretty important to get it the way I want it..

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[stusviews]

kissfan,

The Z-Wave fan controller is not even in the same ballpark as the FanLinc. There exists two important differences. One is that, unless you are looking at the controller when changing speeds, it's difficult to see what speed you're changing to. I know, I had one installed and removed it. But most important, it is not really a replacement for the FanLinc. The Z-Wave controller handles only the fan. the Insteon FanLinc controls both the fan speed and the brightness of the light.

Two Z-Wave device are required to accomplish that. The main advantage of the FanLinc is that you get both controllers in one device. Only a single-gang box is required. If you're retrofitting, a significant aspect of both protocols,  then consider that many homes have only that single-gang box. Consider also, that virtually all non-HA remote controlled fans allow that.
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asbril,

The 3- and 5-button in-wall remotes seems promising, but battery powered is really a disadvantage and still no replacement for the 8-button Insteon keypad. But, why battery powered unless it mounts on the wall and not to a wall box, same as the Insteon Mini Remote. If so, then still, not really a replacement for the Insteon Keypad. Rather, it mimics an already available Insteon device, but with 3 and 5 buttons as opposed to 4 and 8.

And, there's no Insteon replacement for the Z-Wave doorbell nor any Insteon lock that comes close to Z-wave locks. I choose the best of both and would never restrict myself to one protocol if a better device is available in another protocol, even if that device is not compatible with the ISY.

Apparently, stagnation applies to both products

[lilyoyo1]

46 minutes ago, stusviews said:

kissfan,

The Z-Wave fan controller is not even in the same ballpark as the FanLinc. There exists two important differences. One is that, unless you are looking at the controller when changing speeds, it's difficult to see what speed you're changing to. I know, I had one installed and removed it. But most important, it is not really a replacement for the FanLinc. The Z-Wave controller handles only the fan. the Insteon FanLinc controls both the fan speed and the brightness of the light.

Two Z-Wave device are required to accomplish that. The main advantage of the FanLinc is that you get both controllers in one device. Only a single-gang box is required. If you're retrofitting, a significant aspect of both protocols,  then consider that many homes have only that single-gang box. Consider also, that virtually all non-HA remote controlled fans allow that.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

asbril,

The 3- and 5-button in-wall remotes seems promising, but battery powered is really a disadvantage and still no replacement for the 8-button Insteon keypad. But, why battery powered unless it mounts on the wall and not to a wall box, same as the Insteon Mini Remote. If so, then still, not really a replacement for the Insteon Keypad. Rather, it mimics an already available Insteon device, but with 3 and 5 buttons as opposed to 4 and 8.

And, there's no Insteon replacement for the Z-Wave doorbell nor any Insteon lock that comes close to Z-wave locks. I choose the best of both and would never restrict myself to one protocol if a better device is available in another protocol, even if that device is not compatible with the ISY.

Apparently, stagnation applies to both products

I can't really say zwave is innovating; when for the most part, all they are doing is catching up to the core benefits of insteon. With that said, there is no perfect system or controller. No single controller will do all that you want (this includes Creston, Control4, Savant, etc. Each and everyone of them has a downside. 

Like Stusviews, I've found using insteon and zwave together gives me the best of both worlds. Where I want color changing lights, hue fills that need. Everything is tied into RTI for A/V.From past experience, I've learned that everything does not need to be automated. Instead of jumping on every technology out there (that does the exact same things others do), I focused on core technologies that works best with the system i have!

Edited February 16, 2018 by lilyoyo1

[asbril]

7 hours ago, stusviews said:

kissfan,

The Z-Wave fan controller is not even in the same ballpark as the FanLinc. There exists two important differences. One is that, unless you are looking at the controller when changing speeds, it's difficult to see what speed you're changing to. I know, I had one installed and removed it. But most important, it is not really a replacement for the FanLinc. The Z-Wave controller handles only the fan. the Insteon FanLinc controls both the fan speed and the brightness of the light.

Two Z-Wave device are required to accomplish that. The main advantage of the FanLinc is that you get both controllers in one device. Only a single-gang box is required. If you're retrofitting, a significant aspect of both protocols,  then consider that many homes have only that single-gang box. Consider also, that virtually all non-HA remote controlled fans allow that.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

asbril,

The 3- and 5-button in-wall remotes seems promising, but battery powered is really a disadvantage and still no replacement for the 8-button Insteon keypad. But, why battery powered unless it mounts on the wall and not to a wall box, same as the Insteon Mini Remote. If so, then still, not really a replacement for the Insteon Keypad. Rather, it mimics an already available Insteon device, but with 3 and 5 buttons as opposed to 4 and 8.

And, there's no Insteon replacement for the Z-Wave doorbell nor any Insteon lock that comes close to Z-wave locks. I choose the best of both and would never restrict myself to one protocol if a better device is available in another protocol, even if that device is not compatible with the ISY.

Apparently, stagnation applies to both products

Yes, I agree that battery powered key pads do not measure up, but my point was that I believe that Zwave has more growth potential. And Yes, being able to use both Insteon and Zwave is a big advantage of ISY.   There is no reason for anyone with a big Insteon setup to get rid of these. All I have been advocating is that if anyone is starting from zero, I would mostly focus on Zwave and only use Insteon where Zwave falls behind or does not exist.

[lilyoyo1]

3 hours ago, asbril said:

Yes, I agree that battery powered key pads do not measure up, but my point was that I believe that Zwave has more growth potential. And Yes, being able to use both Insteon and Zwave is a big advantage of ISY.   There is no reason for anyone with a big Insteon setup to get rid of these. All I have been advocating is that if anyone is starting from zero, I would mostly focus on Zwave and only use Insteon where Zwave falls behind or does not exist.

I'm on the other side of the fence. While zwave has some great products, the platform on a whole is too fractured for me to wholely support. Until they truly catch up to Insteon when it comes to core features, speed, and ease of use, I can't pick them over Insteon. 

Insteon has its issues. I do agree that they do need to add more to their devices. They need to figure out the plm issue (though I think it's blamed too much). Even then, after spending more on Valentine's day chocolate's than what a plm costs, what's buying a new one 3-4 years from now in order to accomplish what I have?

I think Insteon is much easier to get started with while learning automation as  well as having better looking & feeling switches. Choose the wrong zwave product and a person can be set back for years (someone without the financial means to correct).

[abuttino]

Insteon and ISY are great but, in 4 hours time, I've conglomerated all my devices. I'll be able to report to the ISY when things are changing and still be able to use both and be able to report back to the ST hub if something has changed.

I probably wouldn't do this if I wasn't a programmer

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[paulbates]

15 hours ago, abuttino said:

Looking at the face of Smartthings, it's extremely simple, but I haven't even gotten to the programming such as Pistons. Not a stranger to Python and will give it a go. But local control of Eventghost is one of the best things I have on the ISY. It turns things off that aren't smart like my amp and TV.

Hopefully, I can do internal http calls, that's going to be pretty important to get it the way I want it..

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
 

The ISY is extremely powerful for integration with the programs tab. The next closest is probably homeseer. But after 10 years and 3 versions of HS, the ISY is better/easier for me in that regard. 

My preference is to have published integration points (Nodeservers= Nodelink, polyglot) and not custom coding to maintain for my house. Having moved to V5, I've gotten away with exactly that on the ISY. I do have a pi, but all I did was set it up out of the box, install mono & nodelink and configure... I don't think about it and upgrade it once a year (or every major vulnerability).

Both of my kids have graduated and I'm closer to thinking of selling, and keeping the integration at that higher-level will let me sell the integrated active automation (HVAC, Sprinklers, Lighting controls, Attic fan, etc) as a feature that can be turned over to either a techie buyer, or find a support contact for them. Removing coding off of the tech support responsibilities list will make that plausible (eg.. not having to know specifically .net, python, etc..). Things related AV will most likely come with me, and are in their own integration bubble.. eg Harmony-alexa.. a new owner will have their own.

Paul

[abuttino]

The ISY is extremely powerful for integration with the programs tab. The next closest is probably homeseer. But after 10 years and 3 versions of HS, the ISY is better/easier for me in that regard. 
My preference is to have published integration points (Nodeservers= Nodelink, polyglot) and not custom coding to maintain for my house. Having moved to V5, I've gotten away with exactly that on the ISY. I do have a pi, but all I did was set it up out of the box, install mono & nodelink and configure... I don't think about it and upgrade it once a year (or every major vulnerability).
Both of my kids have graduated and I'm closer to thinking of selling, and keeping the integration at that higher-level will let me sell the integrated active automation (HVAC, Sprinklers, Lighting controls, Attic fan, etc) as a feature that can be turned over to either a techie buyer, or find a support contact for them. Removing coding off of the tech support responsibilities list will make that plausible (eg.. not having to know specifically .net, python, etc..). Things related AV will most likely come with me, and are in their own integration bubble.. eg Harmony-alexa.. a new owner will have their own.
Paul

I had hundreds of programs, many hundred Network resources. It was not even close to needed on the SmartThings hub.

Now, I can't remove my ISY from the Z-Wave network and it is pissing me off. Forever a broken link!

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[Michel Kohanim]

abuttino,

What does this mean? As per Z-WAVE specs, all you have to do is to Exclude your devices fro the controller to which you want to include. If that doesn't work the contact SmartThings support. 

With kind regards,

Michel