Uber ~ Automated Driving Death

[Teken]

As I noted in this forum and others it was just a matter of time before someone lost their lives due to this new technology: https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2018/03/19/uber-self-driving-vehicle-hits-kills-pedestrian-in-phoenix-suburb.html  I don't care what kind of technology, safety, or back up systems are in place. This kind of technology is not ready for prime time due to the fact there is no preexisting infrastructure, education, and common sense.

As noted in the news article they cite the Tesla driver who became nothing more than a smear on the ground.

Why?!?!?

Inattention, lack of common sense, and failure to do the one thing he's supposed to do ~ Drive!!!

What is the litmus test for me some may ask?? When millions of people will place their infant child in said vehicle and let them go on their merry way!! In 2018 a plane can literally take off, fly, and land unattended and has been the case for more than five years. If the technology is so great in a commercial air plane where 99.9999999999999% of the people in the skies are professionals.

Why isn't anyone hopping on said plane with out a pilot / co pilot?!?!?

Is the technology not ready, flawed, too many possible threats and conditions???

Ask the very same for this so called self driving vehicle tech where you are literally surrounded by imbecile's all day ~ Yet its OK to automate the super highways. There will be one more, ten more, than one hundred million more deaths.

Yet as sure as the sun will rise tomorrow there will be endless sheeple that will flock to this technology with a second thought.   

[mitchmitchell]

As I noted in this forum and others it was just a matter of time before someone lost their lives due to this new technology: https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2018/03/19/uber-self-driving-vehicle-hits-kills-pedestrian-in-phoenix-suburb.html  I don't care what kind of technology, safety, or back up systems are in place. This kind of technology is not ready for prime time due to the fact there is no preexisting infrastructure, education, and common sense.
As noted in the news article they cite the Tesla driver who became nothing more than a smear on the ground.
Why?!?!?
Inattention, lack of common sense, and failure to do the one thing he's supposed to do ~ Drive!!!
What is the litmus test for me some may ask?? When millions of people will place their infant child in said vehicle and let them go on their merry way!! In 2018 a plane can literally take off, fly, and land unattended and has been the case for more than five years. If the technology is so great in a commercial air plane where 99.9999999999999% of the people in the skies are professionals.
Why isn't anyone hopping on said plane with out a pilot / co pilot?!?!?
Is the technology not ready, flawed, too many possible threats and conditions???
Ask the very same for this so called self driving vehicle tech where you are literally surrounded by imbecile's all day ~ Yet its OK to automate the super highways. There will be one more, ten more, than one hundred million more deaths.
Yet as sure as the sun will rise tomorrow there will be endless sheeple that will flock to this technology with a second thought.   

Golly, let's think about what the bar is - average human drivers. NOT proffessionals like pilots of commercial aircraft. This technology will far out do average human drivers long before people consider it ready for prime time.

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[Teken]

Golly, let's think about what the bar is - average human drivers. NOT proffessionals like pilots of commercial aircraft. This technology will far out do average human drivers long before people consider it ready for prime time.

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Your reply doesn't address why people aren't lining up to take a seat in a plane with no driver in droves.

Why?!?

Keeping in mind the skies are much safer than the road ways. Will anyone place their infant child in one of these automated vehicles in the future in droves??

I think not . . .


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[DrLumen]

15 minutes ago, Teken said:

 

Your reply doesn't address why people aren't lining up to take a seat in a plane with no driver in droves.

Why?!?

Keeping in mind the skies are much safer than the road ways. Will anyone place their infant child in one of these automated vehicles in the future in droves??

I think not . . .


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Maybe because someone isn't packing 853 people (Airbus A380) into the family sedan?

[oberkc]

Quote

Why isn't anyone hopping on said plane with out a pilot / co pilot?!?!?

Perceptions of the passenger.  Regardless of statistics or facts, most are not comfortable getting on a fragile aluminum tube hurtling through the air at near the speed of sound, without someone onboard in charge.

Quote

Golly, let's think about what the bar is - average human drivers. NOT proffessionals like pilots of commercial aircraft. This technology will far out do average human drivers long before people consider it ready for prime time.

Exactly.  In the unmanned aircraft world, they are levying standards for the autonomous system that can never be met by humans.  It matters not whether the autonomous system is better or safer.

Same for the self-driving car.  It will NEVER be perfect.  Will it be better than human-controlled cars?  (of this I am sure it will be, if not already.)  How many died today on the road because of bad human drivers?  Maybe self-driving cares are not yet ready, but there will be a day not far into the future when we will look back and shudder at the thought of a human driver.

[lilyoyo1]

According to the latest update from the video, the lady stepped out in front of the car at the last moment. Even with a human driver, she probably would have gotten hit. 

[oberkc]

1 minute ago, lilyoyo1 said:

According to the latest update from the video, the lady stepped out in front of the car at the last moment. Even with a human driver, she probably would have gotten hit. 

I wonder if this is the case.  It is, of course, entirely possible that this was not a fault of the driverless car (which actually had human observers on board to watch over things.)

[Mustang65]

Teken,
Come on now, look at the numbers. Cars driven by humans since January 1st of this year have killed 1,200 people. Last year more than 41,000 people were killed by humans driving cars. 90% of auto fatalities each year are caused by Speeding, Drinking, Drugs, texting, running red lights. So if you really think about it you are 90% less likely to get in an accident (you have eliminated the human errors) with a computer driven car .  Yes, I know, most people do not have them. They do not Speed (unless you override the limit), they do not drink or do drugs, OK they do text on your display or send data to all the  involved microcontrollers, but will not run a red light.

 

They had a program on TV this afternoon indicating that the Uber accident happened at night, the woman rushed out of the woods and into the path of the car. First responses from the police is whether the car was driven by a human with no computer assistance or by the computer, either way the accident was unavoidable.

 

Late last year I listened to a group of Insurance industry leaders discussing how the Automobile industry is going to react to the new technology, of less accidents and deaths. They will have to reduce their annual rates that they charge its customers with cars having this technology.. There were a lot of other issues discussed with it. The use of 360 degree video, combined with the new technology and cars talking to each other, will make insurance claims pretty much cut and dry.

 

The other computer driven car death was in  Tesla in Florida, the car was set to autopilot and crashed into the back of a semi. The report said the driver was either asleep or incapacited AND THE DRIVER DID NOTHING TO INTERVENE. That version of that software REQUIRED the driver to intervene.

Just something to think about it.

 

If I was in a Uber car and the driver set it to autopilot, I COULD ask that he turn it off or give me a BIG discount on my charge!

 

Nothing mentioned about a computerized car's computer getting a virus.... (wait this may fall under the humans taking drugs category)

Don

[mitchmitchell]

Your reply doesn't address why people aren't lining up to take a seat in a plane with no driver in droves.

Why?!?

Keeping in mind the skies are much safer than the road ways. Will anyone place their infant child in one of these automated vehicles in the future in droves??

I think not . . .


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Teken,

How many airlines are offering pilotless service? But my point is that the comparison is completely specious as the skill levels involved and risks are orders of magnitudes apart. Our grandchildren will be horrified that people once manually drove cars. I'd feel a lot safer if more of the *other* cars on the road today were driverless!



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[Teken]

I'll restate my question once again because it needs to be asked and answered. It doesn't matter what numerical value you place on the following the answer will still be zero. How many people will place their infant child in a fully automated aircraft with no human control?? Keeping in mind the air is millions of times safer than ground transportation. 

Now, if we take the same example for a fully automated vehicle on the road ways where there are zero predefined roads for said vehicles. How many here or anywhere will place a infant child in said fully automated vehicle to be Shepard from start to finish at the minimum of 30 miles???

I can safely state the amount of people wanting to do so is zero . . .

Again, unless the road ways are predefined and all of the required elements for the right of way is present. You simply can not offer a safe ride for anyone because the human element of others is something that can't be protected against. Like many here I love technology but there are things which mans capacity to create is out pacing his ability to temper that with experience of *What not to do*.

I can tell you all there isn't a automated vehicle that will operate safely in a winter environment here in Canada.

Anyone who has ever driven in the dead of winter knows even after 35 years of driving each and every day is different. No amount of AI will compensate for the human element of stupidity or incompetence of others.   

[Teken]

6 minutes ago, mitchmitchell said:

Teken,

How many airlines are offering pilotless service? But my point is that the comparison is completely specious as the skill levels involved and risks are orders of magnitudes apart. Our grandchildren will be horrified that people once manually drove cars. I'd feel a lot safer if more of the *other* cars on the road today were driverless!



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My driving point is the technology is well proven that an air craft can safely take off, fly, and land unattended. Boeing has been certified to do so for more than five years as part of their fail over systems. Regardless of that fact alone there isn't a soul that would place a infant child on a plane with out a human being at the helm. The same would apply to a ground vehicle and the only reason people are taking notice is because I have used an example that anyone can relate to.

Now, if I simply shifted the human to Grandpa / Grandma would anyone flinch??

Perhaps, perhaps not . . .

But, I dare say Grandpa / Grandma would not be willing to step inside of said air plane full knowing the vehicle was unattended.

If we simply shift the human to the yuppy clueless clown who only knows LOL, face down into a cell phone, the odds might be higher for one of these fools to step on board.

We all know this because everyday there are tens of thousands of fools who risks their lives for only one single thing and that is to get a high. It doesn't matter if its drugs, jumping out a perfectly good airplane, to people willing and able to take on mortal threat because it gives them a high. Given the three classes of humans I just listed its clear from infant, grandma, to yuppy the determination of getting into a fully automated vehicle depends on a persons acceptance of risk(s). We all know just breathing is a risk, crossing the street, even taking a shower but all of these are on the order of percentages far below what could happen.

In the end I enjoy the different views from others but I maintain the lack of infrastructure, training, public awareness, and the common sense will make this tech nothing but a shift in blame, death, and opportunity for lawyers. 

[lilyoyo1]

1 hour ago, oberkc said:

I wonder if this is the case.  It is, of course, entirely possible that this was not a fault of the driverless car (which actually had human observers on board to watch over things.)

In this case I assume it is. With the accident happening in public, the likelihood of a video leaking out is greater. Since the police specifically said they had the video showing the events, should another come out showing different; the ensuing scandal would cause more than a simple accident is worth.

[lilyoyo1]

A driverless cars vs a pilotless plane are 2 different things. When it comes to risk, 1 can kill from a single person to maybe a dozen. The other (should something happen) can kill hundreds of not thousands should it crash in a populated area. 

It is telling however that the military is looking into building pilotless warplanes (not drones)

[larryllix]

All this technology and the stupid AI cannot detect the person closed their eyes or turned their head away from the road too long and then either screams at them or locks the vehicle off?

 

Cripes... Googles AI can't get my vocals operating properly. AI was previously called "making assumptions" and it's dangerous, so far.

[asbril]

11 hours ago, Teken said:

As I noted in this forum and others it was just a matter of time before someone lost their lives due to this new technology: https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2018/03/19/uber-self-driving-vehicle-hits-kills-pedestrian-in-phoenix-suburb.html  I don't care what kind of technology, safety, or back up systems are in place. This kind of technology is not ready for prime time due to the fact there is no preexisting infrastructure, education, and common sense.

As noted in the news article they cite the Tesla driver who became nothing more than a smear on the ground.

Why?!?!?

Inattention, lack of common sense, and failure to do the one thing he's supposed to do ~ Drive!!!

What is the litmus test for me some may ask?? When millions of people will place their infant child in said vehicle and let them go on their merry way!! In 2018 a plane can literally take off, fly, and land unattended and has been the case for more than five years. If the technology is so great in a commercial air plane where 99.9999999999999% of the people in the skies are professionals.

Why isn't anyone hopping on said plane with out a pilot / co pilot?!?!?

Is the technology not ready, flawed, too many possible threats and conditions???

Ask the very same for this so called self driving vehicle tech where you are literally surrounded by imbecile's all day ~ Yet its OK to automate the super highways. There will be one more, ten more, than one hundred million more deaths.

Yet as sure as the sun will rise tomorrow there will be endless sheeple that will flock to this technology with a second thought.   

Teken, with all (deserved) respect for you, I could not disagree more. First of all, the local police implied that the victim moved very quickly in the path of the Uber self-driving car and that most likely the deadly result would have been the same with a regular car.

Secondly, new technologies often are built on lessons of failures and accidents. That applies to airplanes, trains as well as regular cars. My prediction is that in 15 to 20 years all or most cars will be self driving. Faster and impecable internet will allow cars to communicate with each other as well as with roads, traffic signs etc.

Initially there will be Express Lanes for self driving cars, all going at fast speeds, while regular cars remains stuck in traffic in the other lanes. The inside of self driving cars will eventually be without steering wheels and seats will turned towards the other seats, almost like an office or living room. In fact, there will be no more fun in driving as the speed and routes will be determined by the roads, weather and other factors, and this will lead to people no longer owning cars but using Uber type of services. Homes, condos and office buildings will have reduced parking spaces... and commuting will be a dream.

Yes, before we get there, we will experience more tragic accidents and as regretful as these will be, they are part of progress. I can not wait to look down "from the clouds" to observe my grand kids in what will be a very different and exciting  world.

[oberkc]

Quote

t is telling however that the military is looking into building pilotless warplanes (not drones)

X-47 landing on carrier a few years ago as part of development testing.  I will happen.  Perhaps it already has.

 

[Teken]

1 hour ago, asbril said:

Teken, with all (deserved) respect for you, I could not disagree more. First of all, the local police implied that the victim moved very quickly in the path of the Uber self-driving car and that most likely the deadly result would have been the same with a regular car.

Secondly, new technologies often are built on lessons of failures and accidents. That applies to airplanes, trains as well as regular cars. My prediction is that in 15 to 20 years all or most cars will be self driving. Faster and impecable internet will allow cars to communicate with each other as well as with roads, traffic signs etc.

Initially there will be Express Lanes for self driving cars, all going at fast speeds, while regular cars remains stuck in traffic in the other lanes. The inside of self driving cars will eventually be without steering wheels and seats will turned towards the other seats, almost like an office or living room. In fact, there will be no more fun in driving as the speed and routes will be determined by the roads, weather and other factors, and this will lead to people no longer owning cars but using Uber type of services. Homes, condos and office buildings will have reduced parking spaces... and commuting will be a dream.

Yes, before we get there, we will experience more tragic accidents and as regretful as these will be, they are part of progress. I can not wait to look down "from the clouds" to observe my grand kids in what will be a very different and exciting  world.

All good points and you're correct with every new technology there will be risks and deaths. However, nobody has answered one of the main questions I posed and that is will you place a infant child in said vehicle???

[Teken]

1 hour ago, oberkc said:

X-47 landing on carrier a few years ago as part of development testing.  I will happen.  Perhaps it already has.

 

Yes, that was one of the drones which I referenced as being able to fly completely unattended and automated. It was also the first ever automated vehicle to ever land on a moving air craft carrier! Anyone who doesn't understand how complicated and hard that is needs only ask a real pilot.

 

[Teken]

9 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said:

A driverless cars vs a pilotless plane are 2 different things. When it comes to risk, 1 can kill from a single person to maybe a dozen. The other (should something happen) can kill hundreds of not thousands should it crash in a populated area. 

It is telling however that the military is looking into building pilotless warplanes (not drones)

We can all agree a large plane even a small plane should it falter could kill dozens if not hundreds of people if it fell out of the sky. Again, this doesn't address what I've asked which is will you come on to a plane that is fully automated??

Taking into account Boeing and others have proven to the FAA and others this not only can be done but has been done hundreds of times. How come I don't see any hands going up in the air?!?!

The only reason in my estimation people haven't affirmed the same is because they *Perceive* more Risk . . .

If the average person takes what ever stats they can find on the Interwebs its proven there are more fatalities via motor vehicles than aircraft. So, by extension there is less threat / risks in the air coupled with the fact 99.99999999999 of the people flying up there are professionals. Which *should* translate to less accidents / human error etc. So ultimately a person should be safer and have no worries getting into a small / large aircraft and buckle up and enjoy the ride . . .

So, it goes with out saying what will it take for someone here or anywhere to feel comfortable to get on a fully automated airplane with zero human intervention??

Any takers . . .

[larryllix]

A drone can be mostly a robotic with a controlling entity elsewhere from the drone (think RC control).

 These automated vehicles are trying to perform android style control,  where they make their own major decisions on how to pilot the vehicle. The lines are really starting to blur with this technology, though.

Teken is referring to full android style piloting of a vehicle.

[lilyoyo1]

2 hours ago, Teken said:

We can all agree a large plane even a small plane should it falter could kill dozens if not hundreds of people if it fell out of the sky. Again, this doesn't address what I've asked which is will you come on to a plane that is fully automated??

Taking into account Boeing and others have proven to the FAA and others this not only can be done but has been done hundreds of times. How come I don't see any hands going up in the air?!?!

The only reason in my estimation people haven't affirmed the same is because they *Perceive* more Risk . . .

If the average person takes what ever stats they can find on the Interwebs its proven there are more fatalities via motor vehicles than aircraft. So, by extension there is less threat / risks in the air coupled with the fact 99.99999999999 of the people flying up there are professionals. Which *should* translate to less accidents / human error etc. So ultimately a person should be safer and have no worries getting into a small / large aircraft and buckle up and enjoy the ride . . .

So, it goes with out saying what will it take for someone here or anywhere to feel comfortable to get on a fully automated airplane with zero human intervention??

Any takers . . .

Technically I wouldn't be against getting on an automated plane as they pretty much fly themselves now. Pilots generally take control during take off/landing and specific cases during the flight. With that said, due to perception and risks involved, I doubt we would ever get to the point in our lifetime where we have pilotless planes

[dbuss]

People had the same anxieties and fears when automobiles and planes with drivers and pilots were first introduced. 

[larryllix]

8 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Technically I wouldn't be against getting on an automated plane as they pretty much fly themselves now. Pilots generally take control during take off/landing and specific cases during the flight. With that said, due to perception and risks involved, I doubt we would ever get to the point in our lifetime where we have pilotless planes

Now make the flight price half the cost and see what happens......

[Teken]

27 minutes ago, larryllix said:

Now make the flight price half the cost and see what happens......

Flight costs are primarily driven by fuel, tax's, and fee's . . .  Should the airspace industry even take on fully automated and unattended flight expect insurance coverage to go up substantially. 

The major benefit to fully automated and unattended flight is 24.7.365 travel. As the requirement of a pilot being off shift for X hours is no longer an issue.

[oberkc]

3 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Technically I wouldn't be against getting on an automated plane as they pretty much fly themselves now. Pilots generally take control during take off/landing and specific cases during the flight. With that said, due to perception and risks involved, I doubt we would ever get to the point in our lifetime where we have pilotless planes

One (perhaps THE) major obstacle for pilotless planes is that FAR rules are written based upon someone being onboard.  The regulations do not support it at this point, so flights by pilotless planes cannot legally be routine.  I would not be surprised that the same is true for ground vehicles.

I suspect pilotless planes will be initially employed in great numbers by cargo carriers.  I predict the same will be true for road vehicles (think trucks and commercial use).  

Once the performance of these vehicles is demonstrated and we have higher levels of general confidence, the rest will follow.  There is too much to gain not to pursue it.

Did anyone else see that Cadillac is introducing a car able to self-drive on the highways, coming in 2019?  Add that to tesla vehicles.  It is coming.  Resistance is futile.