Strange Wiring Question

[trevorst]

I posted this in the ZWave forum but thought I would post it here also for help from non ZWave folks.

I bought a couple of ZWave Dimmer switches to add to my 3way foyer and staircase lights. When I opened up the boxes was not what I expected. If anyone can give me advice on the wiring in the attached photos I would very much appreciate it.

[oberkc]

Both switches  appear to be part of a three-way arrangement.  Are there other switches that control the load also controlled by these two switches.

Most likely, none of the conductors attaced to these two switches are neutrals.  The white bundle may be a neutral.

it is likely, in my estimation, that you will need to replace the other two switches with zwave versions.

In order to be more specific, you will need to describe the wiring in all boxes.  This includes a description of all cables in the box, number and color of each conductor within each cable, and to what they are connected.

[trevorst]

Thanks for your reply.

This is a threeway setup the pictures show both switch boxes, both the live blacks and white neutrals of the 4 lights are wired together as shown in picture one. Picture two shows that the second switches in the threeway setups have one cable ( 3 wires red, black, white) connected, this cable does not come from the first switch as far as I can tell. The threeway switch setup as shown works just fine.

[oberkc]

The bottom picture appears to show a single cable to each switch, black, white, and red.  Correct?

I am unable to follow all the conductors in the top picture.  Does it have four cables in the box, with two BWR cables and two BW cables?  How are they currently connected to the switches?

My best guess is that one of the BW cables in the top box is supply (line and neutral), the second BW cable goes to load, and the two BWR cables go to the switches (why do you suspect otherwise?)

If all the blacks and whites are wired together, as you state, there would be no blacks or whites to connect to the switches.  I do not understand your "4 lights" description.  What four lights?

If the switches in the top picture are both wired to a single BWR cable, and have no connections to the bundle of live blacks and white neutrals, then those switches have no neutral and supply is most likely supplied at the fixture and that the BWR cables pass through the fixture box, rather than directly between the switches.

I am still hoping for a description of the wiring in all the boxes, as requested in my original response.  Without that, I can only speculate and assume.

[Drosen]

Have you confirmed that the 3 wire cables don't go between boxes? If they did then all the cables could be accounted for. Six cables in wirenut box. Two 3 wire cables and four 2 wire cables. One two wire cable is feeding power in. Another is exiting to another location.  A third is going to one set of lights (stairwell) and the fourth to the other set of lights (foyer). Those last two cables can be identified as having their black conductor attached to a switch in the wirenut box. There is no neutral in the box containing only the three wire cables.

 

[larryllix]

Since there are four 4-way switches being used for 3-way applications, and two switches are mounted in each box beside each other, you must have three switching circuits involved. The third switch is not being shown. This is based on having four switches at only two locations. This is not a useful wring layout and there must be more switches involved.

[trevorst]

Thanks for the input.

I will investigate further given all your input and reply back later today.

[trevorst]

Sorry for the delay getting back to everyone had something come up.

After further investigation I think it may be wired as a California threeway. The reason I say this is because with all four switches removed (2 upstairs, 2 down) all 12 wires are hot.... Don’t think I can add a smart switch now... Any and all input welcome.

[TrojanHorse]

I believe those were outlawed years ago. Maybe some of the old timers here have experience with a California 3-way. Larry can maybe chime in

 

I unfortunately have never even seen one, nor had the pleasure of hooking one up.

 

What happens when you turn on both at the same time?

 

Wish I could help... I couldn’t help myself...

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[trevorst]

Actualy they are not outlawed if there is a neutral in the boxes which there is, at least that is what I have read. 

[larryllix]

2 hours ago, TrojanHorse said:

I believe those were outlawed years ago. Maybe some of the old timers here have experience with a California 3-way. Larry can maybe chime in

<snipped>

 

I have never heard of a California 3 way. I don;t think these are old timers but rather old 4 way switches

4 way switches will work the same as 3way switches if you don't mind paying $30 a switch instead of $4.

@trevorst: if you are not a good electrical troubleshooter you may consider getting an electrician with a good reputation.

At this point (assuming all wires are disconnected and hot) I would find the breaker for the circuit. Turn it off and tape it over so it doesn't get flipped by accident.
Get your meter out and prove  all wires to be dead. Test to the metal boxes. Prove your meter still works, elsewhere.
Hook your ohmmeter/buzzer from each wire to it's metal box. Touch each other end of wires to the metal box at their  end until you can locate the one buzzes/shows continuity. Mark both  end s of the wire with a cable number eg: A, B, C, or C1 etc...
You may need to find the cable that feeds the lamp fixture by checking for voltage first and then using a continuity tester across the black and white of a cable (probably 14/2). Turn out all the bulbs to see if the continuity stops when the last bulbs is loosened. Mark that cable or wires say...."L" for lamps.

Once you have done all that you should make yourself a diagram on paper of what you found and post it here. Perhaps somebody can make sense out of it and we can continue.

 

[oberkc]

6 hours ago, trevorst said:

Any and all input welcome.

I would have liked a description of how the switches were wired (as twice asked).  I am unfamiliar with "California three way", but was able to look it up and was not convinced that this eliminates the possibility of smart switches.  I am also not sure that the use of four-way switches here guarantees a third set of switches somewhere, especially with one connector unused.

Given that lack of original wiring description, I think I will back out of this discussion unless I see something come along where I think I can help. 

[larryllix]

15 minutes ago, oberkc said:

I would have liked a description of how the switches were wired (as twice asked).  I am unfamiliar with "California three way", but was able to look it up and was not convinced that this eliminates the possibility of smart switches.  I am also not sure that the use of four-way switches here guarantees a third set of switches somewhere, especially with one connector unused.

Given that lack of original wiring description, I think I will back out of this discussion unless I see something come along where I think I can help. 

Another set of switches is not based on anything 4 way. It is based on the idea that nobody would wire two sets of 3 way circuits all in the same two boxes. It would serve no purpose having two switches beside each other with the same function.

I suspect there are two more 3way  switches elsewhere involved, and three 3 way circuits involved. Each box shown contains one end of a 3way circuit as well as a common 3way circuit shared between the boxes shown. The usage of 4 way switches in the bottom photo shows somebody used irregular  practices.

[apostolakisl]

I don't know what you mean "all the wires are hot".  That can not be.  The first box looks to me like it has 4 cables entering it.  One of those 4 is probably the wire back to the breaker box.  The other sets would include cables going to the other switches and to the fixture itself.  If you unsplice everything and then turn the breaker back on, you'll be able to find the cable that goes back to the breaker.  The other cables can be ohmed out to figure out which of them go to the other boxes. 

[oberkc]

15 hours ago, larryllix said:

Another set of switches is not based on anything 4 way. It is based on the idea that nobody would wire two sets of 3 way circuits all in the same two boxes. It would serve no purpose having two switches beside each other with the same function.

That seems unusual to me, as well.  While I would not go so far as saying it is impossible, it is sure worth considering the likelihood that there are other switches involved.

It is certainly worth seeking confirmation from the OP.

 

[lilyoyo1]

At some point I say get an electrician. Is the money you save worth all the time taken? The guys on these forums are great but at some point, for your safety and piece of mind, you're better off letting a person on site who knows electricity (as previously mentioned) vs assuming things

[larryllix]

At some point I say get an electrician. Is the money you save worth all the time taken? The guys on these forums are great but at some point, for your safety and piece of mind, you're better off letting a person on site who knows electricity (as previously mentioned) vs assuming things

The details given are not always enough to troubleshoot a wiring as complex as I believe this is becoming.

I also recommend an electrician to sort you out.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

[trevorst]

I am so sorry for wasting everyone’s time on this... It was a case of user error and over thinking the problem.

Turns out they are two normal threeway circuits, what thru me initialy was I knew the power was entering on box 1 and couln’t undersant why box 2 was hot. This got my head wrapped around all kinds of wild ideas of californis wiring etc... Once I started following oberkc’s advice and documenting the wiring I found out although the power entered into box 1 it was then routed to box 2. So from there it all fell into place. Have the Z-Wave switches in and working great.

Thanks everyone who offered ideas.

Trevor

[apostolakisl]

In box 1, I see 4 cables, 2 with 3+1 conductors, and 2 with 2+1.

Good chance one of the 2 + 1 is the power from the panel and the other is carrying power onto some other location.

The 3 + 1 are likely running a standard 3 way in conjunction with the other box where there are also 2 3 + 1.  The 2 3+1 cables from each box probably go (1 each) to the 2 light fixtures where two of the conductors feed the light and the 3rd is spliced together as the traveler.

Based on these two pictures, I'm not finding anything so unusual.  

 

EDIT:  If you open the light fixture box(es) and unsplice the wires, I'm sure you'll find that the 3+1 cables go directly from each box to the light fixture box(es).

[trevorst]

Thanks apostolakisi.. You must have been writing your reply as Inwas posting mine.. You are 100% correct as stated all is working fine now.

[asbril]

1 hour ago, trevorst said:

Have the Z-Wave switches in and working great.

 

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