chris932 Posted January 8, 2019 Posted January 8, 2019 Recently I've been noticing issues with some lighting fixtures. Trying to decide on some recessed lighting I ordered Lithonia Wafer WF4 downlights. I discovered that when connected to an Insteon Micro Dimmer these lights flicker whenever there's Insteon communications, even between other devices. For e.g. if I use an unrelated KPL to turn on an unrelated device the WF4 downlights have a short burst of flicker that seems to correspond with the powerline communication. In the end I wasn't happy with these lights for other reasons and found the Lithonia OneUp 4JBK downlight that do not suffer from this flickering when used with the same Micro Dimmer unit. An interesting thing to note is I dissembled both units and the Wafer WF4 has a separate transformer box and the light itself connects via a low voltage cable. The OneUp 4JBK does not have a separate transformer, instead it has integrated electronics similar to what you would expect in an A19 LED bulb. The problem I'm trying to solve is with a 3rd fixture that I purchased which uses 12v MR16 bulbs. Of course I installed LED bulbs in it. Upon installation I noticed these fixtures have an integrated 12v transformer and sure enough are suffering from the same flickering issue. When I use an app on my phone to turn off an unrelated light on a different circuit I can see the pulsing/flickering. These fixtures are also connected to an Insteon Micro Dimmer, however it is a different unit. Basically I am wondering if there's a device I can connect between the Micro Dimmer and the light fixture to block the Insteon powerline signals and hopefully eliminate the flickering problem. I've read about "noise filters" but it's unclear to me if these would be effective at what I am trying to accomplish, or if they would only block other sorts of signal/noise that typically interfere with powerline communications.
maxnorth Posted January 11, 2019 Posted January 11, 2019 I have the same issue, but with a KPL-controlled LED light. No micro dimmer and no transformer involved.
apostolakisl Posted January 11, 2019 Posted January 11, 2019 Only thing to do is try and find out. The x10pro 20 amp noise filters have worked well for me in the 2 spots I needed them. But that wasn't for flickering.
oberkc Posted January 11, 2019 Posted January 11, 2019 Same for me. I use them to isolate noise from LED loads to switch. Am unsure if it would affect flickering, but it seems to me that there is a good chance that it would.
paulbates Posted January 11, 2019 Posted January 11, 2019 I use the XPNR by itself for low voltage transformer noise as well as PSC furnace blower motor noise. It works well for blocked signals, haven't tried for flickering. As it wires between hot and neutral at the "offending" device, it has no load limitations. Its much smaller than the X10Pro filters and I've been able to get them in the electrical box for the fixture... but its hard to say that universally. Its relatively cheap to test one and see if it will work. Paul
chris932 Posted March 3, 2019 Author Posted March 3, 2019 I just wanted to report back that I seem to have solved the issue using a lower cost Leviton shunt capacitor (SHUNT-002-047 or SHUNT-001-001, both seem effective) What tipped me off is after posting I noticed a different set of lights flickering. These were two outdoor lamps with A19 LED bulbs, each controlled by it's own dedicated Insteon module. However I have two more of the same fixtures ,with the same bulbs, controlled by a shared Insteon dimmer that have never flickered. Maybe different bulbs would have avoided the issue, but it's hard enough trying to find 4000k bulbs (3000k makes white walls look yellow) and the flickering issue seems to plague an array of LED lighting devices anyways. 1
larryllix Posted March 3, 2019 Posted March 3, 2019 Your 3000K bulbs may have a low CRI causing certain colours to be much louder and others to be less predominant. I use 3000K throughout my gathering room mixed among many different brands and the colour isn't quite warm enough. But as I have discovered over the years it's not the colour of the lights, it is what it shines on. I have a med-light grey walls and tha may make the difference. White paints xan be starnge with mixed in ceramic dust and other compounds to make them gleam after the oil based paints went away..
Brian H Posted March 3, 2019 Posted March 3, 2019 (edited) Dimmers are not supposed to be used on transformers. Unless they are specified to be OK on a dimmer. That could be part of the problem. Glad you found a fix. Keep an eye on them for issues over time. Edited March 3, 2019 by Brian H
paulbates Posted March 3, 2019 Posted March 3, 2019 To follow up Brian's comment on transformers, Insteon dimmers can be used with electronic lowvoltage transformers. I have 5 low voltage tranformers that I control with inlinelincs and have been in service since 2007. What's important is to not have a transformer with a maximum load close to the dimmers limit. Probably not a problem for LEDs Paul
Hurting2Ride Posted March 4, 2019 Posted March 4, 2019 21 hours ago, paulbates said: Insteon dimmers can be used with electronic lowvoltage transformers. I have 5 low voltage tranformers that I control with inlinelincs I'm a bit confused, but that's common. When you say Insteon dimmers, are you referring to the inlinelincs? or an Insteon dimmer switch?
paulbates Posted March 4, 2019 Posted March 4, 2019 Maybe that was too specific as I’m using both, mostly inlinelincs. The inlinelinc dimmer is an Insteon dimmer like the switchlinc. Not sure of the (any?) difference in triac based dimming underneath the hood.
ELA Posted March 5, 2019 Posted March 5, 2019 On 3/2/2019 at 8:38 PM, chris932 said: I just wanted to report back that I seem to have solved the issue using a lower cost Leviton shunt capacitor (SHUNT-002-047 or SHUNT-001-001, both seem effective) What tipped me off is after posting I noticed a different set of lights flickering. These were two outdoor lamps with A19 LED bulbs, each controlled by it's own dedicated Insteon module. However I have two more of the same fixtures ,with the same bulbs, controlled by a shared Insteon dimmer that have never flickered. Maybe different bulbs would have avoided the issue, but it's hard enough trying to find 4000k bulbs (3000k makes white walls look yellow) and the flickering issue seems to plague an array of LED lighting devices anyways. Dont be surprised if your communications reliability goes down as you add more of those shunts. Especially the -047! While they may help your flicker issue they are also signal suckers. Every one you add sucks insteon signal when the switch is on. Yes they are cheaper but to properly solve the issue you also need to isolate the cap. from the network with an inductor. That is what Filterlincs do. 1
Brian H Posted March 5, 2019 Posted March 5, 2019 The Simply Automated ZNF10A is a noise filter that uses a coil and capacitor. It would probably work fine for you. Though it is fairly large and not cheap. http://www.simply-automated.com/documents/452-0053-001_RevE_ZNF10A_User_Guide_130613.pdf 1
Hurting2Ride Posted March 6, 2019 Posted March 6, 2019 On 3/4/2019 at 3:22 AM, paulbates said: Maybe that was too specific as I’m using both, mostly inlinelincs. The inlinelinc dimmer is an Insteon dimmer like the switchlinc. Not sure of the (any?) difference in triac based dimming underneath the hood. I used the InlineLinc at my last house and I saw no functional difference. It sounds like I misunderstood; you're using them in different scenarios, correct?
paulbates Posted March 6, 2019 Posted March 6, 2019 Yes. i use insteon dimmers with low voltage lighting transformers. My original point was to follow on to Brian’s about using Insteon dimmers with transformers. While controlling Transformers with Insteon dimmers is usually not recommended , low voltage electronic lighting transformers is a case where they can be used, and I was offering my experience as an example of it working
Hurting2Ride Posted March 7, 2019 Posted March 7, 2019 I appreciate the example. While I’ve experimented with most types of Insteon-related scenarios, I’m only now looking in to low-voltage options as I’ve never had a home with indoor low-voltage lights before. And now I’ve got a home with roughly 200 of them with zero automation, which is driving me crazy. I’m dying to get them there but the expense...ugh. And roughly half the lights are located in areas with no attic, limiting some of my options. So I’m definitely interested in any & all options, especially for large banks of lights and switches.
chris932 Posted March 12, 2019 Author Posted March 12, 2019 Now the KeypadLinc Dimmer is dead. I set it to less than 100%, say 20%, but the bulb outputs 100% light. Did Insteon fix their RMA process or is it the same old song and dance?
simplextech Posted March 12, 2019 Posted March 12, 2019 10 hours ago, chris932 said: Now the KeypadLinc Dimmer is dead. I set it to less than 100%, say 20%, but the bulb outputs 100% light. Did Insteon fix their RMA process or is it the same old song and dance? I don't know about "fixing" the process. But I recently had a FanLinc that was DOA and I called explained (I did have another that worked with the same fan so that cut the troubleshooting time down). All in all it was a short call and they processed the RMA. The downside was their shipping took nearly 2 weeks before I received the replacement even though I mailed the DOA one the next day.
chris932 Posted May 23, 2019 Author Posted May 23, 2019 Insteon replaced the Keypad but it still doesn't dim my bulb! I also ordered 4 new bulbs, 2 of the same brand/model and 2 of a different brand. No matter what bulb I put in this dimmer it doesn't work right. Even if I take a working bulb out of another dimmer. Also the flickering when Insteon signals are sent is back, and seems to be affecting a new device. Insteon says they're going to send me a "modified keypad" that "should help" any idea what that entails? I haven't told them I got the shunt capacitors, for fear they say the warranty is void. Also my 220v load controller seems to have died again. Same as last time, load control button on the unit works but Why is this stuff so unreliable??
auger66 Posted August 12, 2019 Posted August 12, 2019 On 5/23/2019 at 12:36 AM, chris932 said: Insteon replaced the Keypad but it still doesn't dim my bulb! I also ordered 4 new bulbs, 2 of the same brand/model and 2 of a different brand. No matter what bulb I put in this dimmer it doesn't work right. Even if I take a working bulb out of another dimmer. Also the flickering when Insteon signals are sent is back, and seems to be affecting a new device. Insteon says they're going to send me a "modified keypad" that "should help" any idea what that entails? I haven't told them I got the shunt capacitors, for fear they say the warranty is void. Also my 220v load controller seems to have died again. Same as last time, load control button on the unit works but Why is this stuff so unreliable?? Did the modified keypad work? I have an Insteon traffic flickering problem i finally want to do something with. The lights that flicker on dim are in recessed lighting so I can't plug something in. It looks like lightning in my place. I've thought if the Insteon powerline transmitter/repeater could be disabled and just use rf on the problem lights, it should work. I'm wondering if that's the mod Smarthome is doing.
Techman Posted August 12, 2019 Posted August 12, 2019 On 3/2/2019 at 7:38 PM, chris932 said: I just wanted to report back that I seem to have solved the issue using a lower cost Leviton shunt capacitor (SHUNT-002-047 or SHUNT-001-001, both seem effective) What tipped me off is after posting I noticed a different set of lights flickering. These were two outdoor lamps with A19 LED bulbs, each controlled by it's own dedicated Insteon module. However I have two more of the same fixtures ,with the same bulbs, controlled by a shared Insteon dimmer that have never flickered. Maybe different bulbs would have avoided the issue, but it's hard enough trying to find 4000k bulbs (3000k makes white walls look yellow) and the flickering issue seems to plague an array of LED lighting devices anyways. Some of the first generation LED bulbs incorporate a driver circuit. The circuit can go bad and or there can be an incompatibility with the Insteon devices. The newer Feit bulbs use only an LED element and dim almost all the way down without flicker. They come in 2700, 3000 and 5000k the link below is an example of the newer bulbs https://www.amazon.com/Feit-Electric-Decorative-Filament-Equivalent/dp/B01M0378U5/ref=sr_1_28?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI5v-Rmrn-4wIVph-tBh0kyAwVEAAYASAAEgJsRvD_BwE&hvadid=153682490531&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9030951&hvnetw=g&hvpos=1t1&hvqmt=e&hvrand=5510797493507541079&hvtargid=kwd-6761877881&hydadcr=8384_9499036&keywords=feit+led&qid=1565651210&s=gateway&sr=8-28
smithlevenson Posted September 3, 2019 Posted September 3, 2019 I used these Phillips Bulbs off of a micro dimmer. The other LED bulbs I tried from Home Depot had poor color and dimmer response. They also blinked at all insteon traffic, which made it unusable. The Phillips bulbs solved all of that. https://www.amazon.com/Philips-465054-LED-Dimmable-35-Degree/dp/B01LMEQIMQ/ref=sr_1_4?keywords=Philips+465054+LED+GU10+Dimmable+35-&qid=1567520504&s=hi&sr=1-4
LFMc Posted September 3, 2019 Posted September 3, 2019 LED bulbs react to power changes so fast compared to old incandescent or florescent bulbs. So any fluctuations on the DC supply circuit are reflected in the LED light near instantaneously. I would think that well designed LED lights would have enough capacitance or inductance on the DC circuit to smooth out any of these flickers, but those additional items add costs to the bulb. I too have some cheaper LED A19 bulbs that seem to flicker randomly on their own. So thanks for making me aware of the cause. I have some Lowe's house brand (Utilitech) can light, replacement, dimmable LEDs on an Insteon dimmer wall switch and they work great without any flicker.
smithlevenson Posted September 3, 2019 Posted September 3, 2019 52 minutes ago, LFMc said: LED bulbs react to power changes so fast compared to old incandescent or florescent bulbs. So any fluctuations on the DC supply circuit are reflected in the LED light near instantaneously. I would think that well designed LED lights would have enough capacitance or inductance on the DC circuit to smooth out any of these flickers, but those additional items add costs to the bulb. I too have some cheaper LED A19 bulbs that seem to flicker randomly on their own. So thanks for making me aware of the cause. I have some Lowe's house brand (Utilitech) can light, replacement, dimmable LEDs on an Insteon dimmer wall switch and they work great without any flicker. I use the Feit Bulbs from Costco with relatively few issues. The cons I find are dimmer response and uneven lowend cutoff, uneven light levels when there are multiple overhead bulbs. I have no color or flickering issues with them. They aren't perfect but I have 40 overhead can lights downstairs alone and the cost savings make up for the minor imperfections. 1
joelika Posted July 3, 2021 Posted July 3, 2021 On 3/2/2019 at 10:38 PM, chris932 said: I just wanted to report back that I seem to have solved the issue using a lower cost Leviton shunt capacitor (SHUNT-002-047 or SHUNT-001-001, both seem effective) What tipped me off is after posting I noticed a different set of lights flickering. These were two outdoor lamps with A19 LED bulbs, each controlled by it's own dedicated Insteon module. However I have two more of the same fixtures ,with the same bulbs, controlled by a shared Insteon dimmer that have never flickered. Maybe different bulbs would have avoided the issue, but it's hard enough trying to find 4000k bulbs (3000k makes white walls look yellow) and the flickering issue seems to plague an array of LED lighting devices anyways. @chris932 Would you mind sharing where you wired in your SHUNT? I have the same issue with 5 Ultra Slim 4 in. LED downlights from Commercial Electric on a micro dimmer. I tried wiring my SHUNT (047) right after the micro dimmer per the instructions from Leviton and I still get a lot of flickering when the downlights are dimmed. I also removed it and tried it in the first junction box of the first downlight and I still had flickering. Thanks!
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