New house, more choices.

[palayman]

5 minutes ago, paulbates said:

@Bumbershoot

Here is the comparison file of 2 pages. It was here on the forum. Its a before and after turning the breakers for the signalinc on. 

Paul

 

Insteon Bridge.pdf 370.46 kB · 0 downloads

Amazing!  Pretty much settles any debate on the desirability of  a coupler. Thanks for sharing!

[lilyoyo1]

1 hour ago, palayman said:

This is why I have my PLM next the electrical panel so that the distances to devices are as evenly distributed as possible and why I have a a phase coupler so that I don't have to wait for the RF bridging to take place. As I said, I don't notice the popcorn even without adjusting ramp rates.

I don't have the popcorn effect either. Different led bulbs do respond differently to ramping but that's a different situation to me

[Bumbershoot]

29 minutes ago, paulbates said:

@Bumbershoot

Here is the comparison file of 2 pages. It was here on the forum. Its a before and after turning the breakers for the signalinc on. 

Paul

 

Insteon Bridge.pdf 370.46 kB · 5 downloads

Thank-you, very nice work, and that's an impressive improvement!  I know what my next HA gadget is going to be.

Again, thank-you!

[Scottmichaelj]

Wait! I can see how this popcorn effect could happen. I doubt the Insteon delay of hops are being seen though, given the usage of any ramp on rate.. 
Having said that, most can see the speed of light delay on a long street full of street lights that all turn on with the same circuit.  
If a scene uses a ramp on rate,with  different LED bulb brands and LED lights trips have different power supplies and different lux linearity curves. I have a fine example in my dining room chandelier. One of the five Cree bulbs went bad and I returned it to HD (The Borg), only to have a newer style Cree bulb handed to me as a replacement. At 100% all bubs look the same but anything below 60% that bulbs is much brighter than the other four. (lesson there? Always buy an extra bulb and mark the spare for multiple bulbs visible from each other)
Now apply this to a slow and long ramping up voltage coming from various Insteon dimmers. They may all put out the same average voltage, at the same time, but the difference in bulb linearities may make them look like the popcorn effect.
 
[mention=166]Scottmichaelj[/mention]As an experiment I would be interested to have you set all the devices involved (cheap popcorn bulbs you bought  ) set to fast On, and document if the effect goes away, or is reduced, or changes in any way.
I assume you have various brands of bulbs in your "popcorn" scene. Can you describe this in more detail. I find this interesting and it would be nice to know for future reference and reduction or elimination of the effect.
 

This is why I have my PLM next the electrical panel so that the distances to devices are as evenly distributed as possible and why I have a a phase coupler so that I don't have to wait for the RF bridging to take place. As I said, I don't notice the popcorn even without adjusting ramp rates.

Same type of bulbs (recessed Cree LED with trim - Ecosmart Cool White by Home Depot) for all my lights in the sunset scene I have. I am comparing only recessed LEDs in my kitchen, family room, great room, upstairs hallway and foyer, nothing outside that ie lamps or other surface mount lights. Total is 9 loads on different circuits, over 37 led cans. PLM is next to the panel and on its own circuit, whole home surge, phase coupler, with all load circuits on the same panel. Not sure how much better your going to get than that. The event viewer scene test does show a few lower hops. The only thing that could possibly be an issue is line noise (which I suspect MR16s to be) however I have filterlincs on all UPS, fridge, freeze, wine fridges and washer/dryer. Again zero communication errors. Thats as close to perfect as you can get if you ask me. But even then thats a lot of stuff to try and make Insteon perfect. Lets remember I am not complaining or bashing Insteon just was commenting on what I know to be true based on my home and what I seen and done for my clients.

[Ajax]

OK guys I am thinking we are getting a little off topic

[palayman]

10 hours ago, Ajax said:

OK guys I am thinking we are getting a little off topic

Sorry you feel that way.  I actually thought the discussion was good and should help anyone trying to setup Insteon in a new home.

[palayman]

16 hours ago, Scottmichaelj said:

But even then thats a lot of stuff to try and make Insteon perfect.

As an experiment I made a video of the largest scene I have at 60 fps, composed of 5 devices and about 20 pot lights (all the same bulbs) being turned on.  They are on 4 breakers and spread across both phases. To make it worst case I made sure the heat pump was running along with the washer, dryer and a hair dryer. Video showed all 5 coming on in the same video frame. The only piece of additional hardware is my $5, home made, phase coupler.  YMMV

Not sure that Lutron could do better, but is would be at least 5X the cost, I'd couldn't do it myself and it wouldn't be integrated with all my other stuff.

[lilyoyo1]

16 hours ago, Ajax said:

OK guys I am thinking we are getting a little off topic

I know our debates may seem out of hand but its really not. Many of us that you see going back and forth simply have alot of experience that expands on the initial question. This is actually good for other users. I and others on here may not agree on many things, however both viewpoints gives others (especially new users) a broader picture than if we simply answered a question and moved on. Many of us are advanced users of multiple protocols. While we may have our favorites, competing viewpoints give a broader picture versus if we all just simply agreed. As Palayman said, it provides alot of information for others. While you may not need the information, someone else might. You will be surprised how much goes into a system (any system) to get it running optimally. 

Take @Scottmichaelj for existence. If I had to pay someone to do my home I would have no problem turning to him to do it outside of distance. I've seen the knowledge that he had and while I've had quite a few debates with him, I can see he knows what he is talking about. Just because we have a difference in opinion doesn't lessen what he knows. The same with @Teken. Even though he has let me down this past year with arguing, I have to admit he is one of the most knowledgeable people here. When we built our dream home alot of what I did came from his posts over the years that I ended up implementing in my own installations. 

Edited February 26, 2019 by lilyoyo1

[simplextech]

I'm actually finding a lot of this useful.  I'm new to the Insteon world so this is interesting.  I find no issues with debating the technologies as I have found that each have their own strength/weakness and this type of back and forth often brings out hidden gems.

[larryllix]

All except Scott. He's not from 'round here.

We like to argue on video chat cause the insults seem more threatening face to face being at different ends of the continent from each other.

I given him 'till sundown to get out of Insteon country.


Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

[Ajax]

All I do understand the discussion and I encourage it bc that is the best way to learn, but a lot of times when one searches for specific topics discussions like these get missed bc of the title does not include "popcorn effect" or something similar.

And yes I did ask a very vague question so I should be prepared for a multitude of various answers. Basically all I am saying is that I hate make decisions for other peoples homes! I am glad I do not do this as a profession! Especially trying to find what would work for my in-laws... so hoping you guys could help me not make a mistake

[larryllix]

All I do understand the discussion and I encourage it bc that is the best way to learn, but a lot of times when one searches for specific topics discussions like these get missed bc of the title does not include "popcorn effect" or something similar.

And yes I did ask a very vague question so I should be prepared for a multitude of various answers. Basically all I am saying is that I hate make decisions for other peoples homes! I am glad I do not do this as a profession! Especially trying to find what would work for my in-laws... so hoping you guys could help me not make a mistake

All systems are a mistake as well as the answer depending on how hard you work them and/or understand them.

 

Usually the basics take a little time to install while the fancy stuff can eat your life.

 

With ISY there is enough help here and canned routines to make your life a lot easier.

 

Many of us have gone insane from excessive programmin and we apologize logically.

 

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

 

 

 

[lilyoyo1]

2 minutes ago, Ajax said:

All I do understand the discussion and I encourage it bc that is the best way to learn, but a lot of times when one searches for specific topics discussions like these get missed bc of the title does not include "popcorn effect" or something similar.

And yes I did ask a very vague question so I should be prepared for a multitude of various answers. Basically all I am saying is that I hate make decisions for other peoples homes! I am glad I do not do this as a profession! Especially trying to find what would work for my in-laws... so hoping you guys could help me not make a mistake

It's actually easier than what you think since most times the client doesn't know what they want.....just that they want it and don't know how. 

[Ajax]

OK so how to you guys feel about the GE Z-Wave Plus dimmers vs Insteon https://byjasco.com/products/ge-z-wave-plus-wall-smart-dimmer for quality an feel? 

[markv58]

I have both. It depends on the application which brand I use. I prefer Insteon overall over any z-wave but I haven't upgraded to the newest z-wave and that might change my opinion if I can get the same feedback from the GE switches as I do from the Insteon.

I have one right next to the other in a couple of locations and other than the led positions I don't notice any difference in quality or feel.

[mwester]

Quality is good -- love the screw terminals as opposed to the wire leads that most switches have.  Downside is that they're big - hard to fit in multigang boxes if you have a bunch of them side-by-side.  Color changing is inexpensive -- they provide white, and light almond in the package (thought they used to include ivory - I'll have to check my parts box - but the web site says only white and light almond now.  Works for me, but that's a consideration!)

Feel isn't bad -- not quite as "clicky" as the Insteon switches (and way less "clicky" than the mechanical counterparts, of course).  The GE Z-Wave Plus units are far, far better than the lower-cost z-wave units (like the Enerwave unit, which is so dreadful I tossed one in the trash rather than re-purposing it, after I replaced it with a GE unit).

The LED is kinda lonely, if you're accustomed to the multi-color, multi-LED units like the SwitchLinc Dimmer, or the HomeSeer multi-color multi-led device (which is only in white, so I can't use them, alas   ).  There's also not a lot of customization you can set -- I have a bunch of Insteon devices where one press brings them up to 30% brightness for normal lighting, and a double-press brings them up to their whopping great full brilliance (for tasks like cleaning, etc).  Can't do that with the Z-Wave stuff.  However, the GE unit DOES support associations and will notify the ISY when the button is pushed - so programs, and ISY-based scenes, all work with the unit.

For whatever reason, one of the basement GE units (the GE Z-Wave switch w/occupancy sensing) just popped up as a preferred repeater for a number of my z-wave devices, after I moved some plugin devices around post-christmas-cleanup.  So it clearly works as a repeater, even though being embedded in a wall isn't the ideal location for a repeater.

Bottom line: All future z-wave switches will be the GE units for me (at least until HomeSeer comes up with light almond faceplates).

Edited February 27, 2019 by mwester
Looks like the faceplates included have changed...

[Ajax]

26 minutes ago, mwester said:

Quality is good -- love the screw terminals as opposed to the wire leads that most switches have.  Downside is that they're big - hard to fit in multigang boxes if you have a bunch of them side-by-side.  Color changing is inexpensive -- they provide white, and light almond in the package (thought they used to include ivory - I'll have to check my parts box - but the web site says only white and light almond now.  Works for me, but that's a consideration!)

Feel isn't bad -- not quite as "clicky" as the Insteon switches (and way less "clicky" than the mechanical counterparts, of course).  The GE Z-Wave Plus units are far, far better than the lower-cost z-wave units (like the Enerwave unit, which is so dreadful I tossed one in the trash rather than re-purposing it, after I replaced it with a GE unit).

The LED is kinda lonely, if you're accustomed to the multi-color, multi-LED units like the SwitchLinc Dimmer, or the HomeSeer multi-color multi-led device (which is only in white, so I can't use them, alas   ).  There's also not a lot of customization you can set -- I have a bunch of Insteon devices where one press brings them up to 30% brightness for normal lighting, and a double-press brings them up to their whopping great full brilliance (for tasks like cleaning, etc).  Can't do that with the Z-Wave stuff.  However, the GE unit DOES support associations and will notify the ISY when the button is pushed - so programs, and ISY-based scenes, all work with the unit.

For whatever reason, one of the basement GE units (the GE Z-Wave switch w/occupancy sensing) just popped up as a preferred repeater for a number of my z-wave devices, after I moved some plugin devices around post-christmas-cleanup.  So it clearly works as a repeater, even though being embedded in a wall isn't the ideal location for a repeater.

Bottom line: All future z-wave switches will be the GE units for me (at least until HomeSeer comes up with light almond faceplates).

That's great to hear, but surprised that the double tap etc is only an Insteon thing and not a Isy thing. Have you had any issues with having to run heal networks etc?

[simplextech]

38 minutes ago, mwester said:

For whatever reason, one of the basement GE units (the GE Z-Wave switch w/occupancy sensing) just popped up as a preferred repeater for a number of my z-wave devices, after I moved some plugin devices around post-christmas-cleanup.  So it clearly works as a repeater, even though being embedded in a wall isn't the ideal location for a repeater.

Generally all powered z-wave devices act as repeaters.  Curious are you running the z-wave with the ISY?  If so what are you using to view the routing and network information with ISY?

[Ajax]

Reading the reviews on the GE z-wave plus seems like there is a high failure rate around 2-3 years... (outside of the 2 year warranty)

[mwester]

1 hour ago, Ajax said:

That's great to hear, but surprised that the double tap etc is only an Insteon thing and not a Isy thing. Have you had any issues with having to run heal networks etc?

The units send a single-tap and a double-tap -- but I'm referring to is the trick with Insteon where you can set up the local on-level, so that a single-tap on the Insteon device ramps it up to the specified on-level (e.g. 30%).  And on Insteon, a double-tap is a "fast-on" with the side-effect that it also goes immediately to 100% on.  I've found no z-wave devices that support a local on-level; they all go to 100% when they ramp up.

Regarding healing the network, the only issue I've had has been with the new card in the ISY (the z-wave plus) -- it's range is far less than the old non-plus card.  I finally made sure the ISY was within about 10 feet of a z-wave plus device to act as the first repeater.  Oddly enough, now that I've done that, and run a few heals, most of the z-wave devices in the house have a direct path to the ISY!  No idea what's going on - but it seems unique to the ISY's z-wave card, and seems to all work find as long as one has a close-by device to act as that critical first repeater.

Edited February 27, 2019 by mwester

[mwester]

1 hour ago, simplextech said:

Generally all powered z-wave devices act as repeaters.  Curious are you running the z-wave with the ISY?  If so what are you using to view the routing and network information with ISY?

Yes, all powered devices act as repeaters, but that doesn't mean that the routing selected by the "heal" will necessarily use them -- what I was referring to was that the routing the ISY determined started using that GE in-wall unit, as opposed to the far-closer Aeon Siren that it's always used previously (and I put there specifically to act as a repeater for the ISY -- the Aeon Siren is known to perform very well in that role, and does something useful in addition to being a repeater!).

In order to view the routing information I use the diagnostic console and the "zwave->show information in event viewer->all" menu for each z-wave device.  It's quite tedious.  But I save the diagnostic output to a file, and parse it with a perl script, to select only the bits of info I'm after.  Some day I might try to find the API to trigger this operation, and set up something to magically fetch all this data, and graph it -- kinda like the way one can display the routing graphically in HAAS.

[mwester]

53 minutes ago, Ajax said:

Reading the reviews on the GE z-wave plus seems like there is a high failure rate around 2-3 years... (outside of the 2 year warranty)

Two of mine are approaching that limit, that'd be disappointing indeed.  I guess I'll find out...

[simplextech]

1 hour ago, mwester said:

Some day I might try to find the API to trigger this operation, and set up something to magically fetch all this data, and graph it -- kinda like the way one can display the routing graphically in HAAS.

Yes that is a nice setup with Home Assistant.  I'm very used to using Z-Seer with HomeSeer for Z-Wave so I was interested to see if there was another tool or something someone was using for ISY Z-Wave diagnostics.  

1 hour ago, mwester said:

Yes, all powered devices act as repeaters, but that doesn't mean that the routing selected by the "heal" will necessarily use them

Yes... There's very little rhyme or reason as to how a route is selected.  Even when using a tool to manually set the route it can change to something unexpected on the next network heal.  

[simplextech]

1 hour ago, mwester said:

Two of mine are approaching that limit, that'd be disappointing indeed.  I guess I'll find out...

The only issues I've had with GE switches was I had the LED's go out on two different switches.  Coming from z-wave now to Insteon I prefer the touch/feel of the Insteon switches over the GE switches.  The Zooz switches have a nicer touch I think and more options at a cheaper cost and I never had a problem quality wise with them.  The HomeSeer switches are excellent with lots of features but higher price tag as well.

Innovelli has a new switch in development and they look to have some decent stuff.  I have not used/tested anything from them other than speaking with them about their offerings.

[lilyoyo1]

I am assuming you will be doing the programming. Personally I am not a fan of how zwave is when it comes to lighting but to each their own.  I would recommend buying 6 or 7 switches and installing them in your place to play around with. Its imperative (since its not cheap and its someone else home and they are trusting you) that you have first hand knowledge and experience with what you are using. The last thing you want to do is fill a house with switches without knowing great detail on how they perform. The zwave lovers will sing its praise while overlooking its obvious deficiencies while detractors will do the same in regards to pointing out its cons while overlooking the pros. The same goes for insteon.

 Since you are already familiar with insteon you have a baseline to work with. Having multiple zwave switches will allow you to see first hand how zwave as a protocol operates and whether or not it fits what you are trying to do and your expectations for an automation system.