Whole home surge protection recommendations

[lilyoyo1]

21 minutes ago, Geddy said:

 

+1 for the EATON product. I had one installed last year. Also got the double pole 50 amp circuit breaker as part of it. Having lived in the house almost 20 years I never really thought about whole home protection, but feel better now that we have that with the extra equipment we have in the house. We still protect for spot of connection for the expensive stuff (entertainment system and computers).

 

I still use standard surge protectors on my electronics. Never thought about whole home until I started using automation. I figured if I'm going to protect a tv why wouldn't I protect switches I spent money on as well. 

[palayman]

7 hours ago, larryllix said:

According to the info link  @palayman posted above, the Leviton unit has no protection from neutral to ground. If installed right at the main panel, the ground and system neutral are connected together within inches of the spike suppressor and become redundant.

Speculating here that the probability of a bad bond between the neutral and ground, at the frequencies of interest to the spike or surge, are probably of the same order as the probability of being hit by a lightning strike.

[westom]

11 hours ago, larryllix said:

When grounding high voltage structures, we always had to make the electricians redo the mounting path, as they always wanted to run the large copper conductors through metallic structure holes.  We didn't even allow two hole metal clamps to hold the bare conductors as they would form a complete ferrous metallic ring.

The relevant concept is called impedance.   First, no protector does protection.  OP must understand that.  An effective protector makes a low impedance (ie less than 10 foot) connection to the item that does all protection - earth ground.

TV cable already has best protection installed for free - and no protector.  A hardwire must connect low impedance (ie no sharp bends) from that cable to single point earth ground.  What harmlessly 'absorbs' hundreds of thousands of joules?  Earth ground.

Phone cannot connect directly to earth.  So a telco installs (for free) a 'whole house' protector.  That protector is only doing what a TV cable's hardwire does better.  Make a low impedance connection to what does protection - earthing electrodes.

Second, AC is the only incoming utility not required to have effective protection.  One wire does connect to earth - to protect humans.  Other wires must also connect low impedance (ie less than ten feet) to that earthing electrode.  It must be the same electrode also used by the telephone, satellite dish, OTA antenna, and TV cable.  Single point earth ground.  A homeowner is responsible for providing, inspecting, and maintaining earth ground.

If a surge is not anywhere inside, then best protection already inside every appliance is not overwhelmed.  That can only happen when a surge connects low impedance (ie hardwire not inside metallic conduit) to earth.

Third, lightning is typically 20,000 amps.  A minimal 'whole house' protector is 50,000 amps.  Ineffective protectors fail.  An effective protector must remain functional for many decades after many direct lightning strikes.  This proven solution costs tens of times less money per protected appliance.

How to make that protector even more effective?  Upgrade the only item that defines protection - earth ground.  An AC utility demonstrates how it is done in  good, bad, and ugly (preferred, wrong, and right) pictures at: 
https://www.duke-energy.com/energy-education/power-quality/tech-tips
  then select Tech Tip 8.

 It must be single point earth ground.  Protectors are only connecting devices to what does protection.  Plug-in protectors have no such connection due to excessive impedance .

Above is the 'secondary' protection layer.  Each layer is only defined by the item that does protection.  A 'primary' protection layer also should be inspected.

[palayman]

6 hours ago, westom said:

The relevant concept is called impedance.   First, no protector does protection.  OP must understand that.  An effective protector makes a low impedance (ie less than 10 foot) connection to the item that does all protection - earth ground.

Actually the relevant concept Larry was discussing is a called a ground loop.  BTW I've never heard of impedance being measured in feet.  Usually it's ohms.

[westom]

4 hours ago, palayman said:

Actually the relevant concept Larry was discussing is a called a ground loop.  BTW I've never heard of impedance being measured in feet.  Usually it's ohms.

The ohms (impedance) are excessive if a wire is too long.

Quote

 ... and pass the spike suppression through a metal knockout hole in the panel choking off some of the high frequency spectrum, and thereby reducing the effect of the protector.

That is not about ground loops.  That is about the impedance of a connection from protector to earth.  Wire impedance is relevant. So significant that wire with sharp bends, splices, inside metallic conduit or too long compromises protection.

Wire impedance is also why plug-in protectors have no effective connection to earth.  Therefore may divert destructive currents through nearby appliances.

A hardwire to connect a breaker box protector was routed over the foundation and down to earthing electrodes.  Higher impedance, created by sharp bends and longer wire, compromised protection.  Protection increased when that wire was through foundation and down to electrodes - lower impedance.

[lilyoyo1]

3 hours ago, westom said:

The ohms (impedance) are excessive if a wire is too long.

That is not about ground loops.  That is about the impedance of a connection from protector to earth.  Wire impedance is relevant. So significant that wire with sharp bends, splices, inside metallic conduit or too long compromises protection.

Wire impedance is also why plug-in protectors have no effective connection to earth.  Therefore may divert destructive currents through nearby appliances.

A hardwire to connect a breaker box protector was routed over the foundation and down to earthing electrodes.  Higher impedance, created by sharp bends and longer wire, compromised protection.  Protection increased when that wire was through foundation and down to electrodes - lower impedance.

All of this is a moot point. The op just wants a recommendation on whole house surge protectors. If he were building a house, grounding and all that information would matter more. 

Also, here is a link to where you copied and pasted from so others know the full story

https://boards.fool.com/i-am-rather-shocked-most-only-want-to-argue-rare-33993346.aspx

Edited September 18, 2019 by lilyoyo1

[westom]

21 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said:

All of this is a moot point. The op just wants a recommendation on whole house surge protectors.

No protector does protection.  Not one. Protectors are only effective when connected low impedance (ie less than 3 meters) to single point earth ground.  Only earth ground harmlessly dissipates hundreds of thousands of joules.

Best protection costs least - ie Ufer grounds.  These installed when footings are poured.  Otherwise, a homeowner must spend more money on $10 earth ground electrodes. Required when more effective earth grounds were not installed.

No protector does protection .  Not one.  Ineffective plug-in protectors are profit centers.  Other companies, so well known for their integrity, provide 'whole house protectors.  Those also do not do protection.  Instead, effective when connected low impedance (ie less than 10 feet) to the same item that made Ben Franklin's lightning rods so effective.

An informed recommendation always - as in always - answers this question. Where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate?  Just another reason why informed homeowners spend $10 for each 8 plus foot earth ground electrode.  Because a protector (lightning rod or 'whole house' protector) is only as effective as its earth ground.  Where do hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate?    Destructively inside through appliances. Or harmlessly outside in earth.  Only a homeowner makes that choice.

Nothing new here.  This science has been well proven for over 100 years in every facility that cannot have damage.  And is little known to majority only educated by hearsay, wild speculation, and advertising.  Yes, the many can be that easily manipulated by advertising lies.  As demonstrated 70 years ago when almost all Americans knew that smoking cigarettes increased health.  They also ignored well proven science and numbers.  Scams are that easily promoted.

[lilyoyo1]

7 minutes ago, westom said:

No protector does protection.  Not one. Protectors are only effective when connected low impedance (ie less than 3 meters) to single point earth ground.  Only earth ground harmlessly dissipates hundreds of thousands of joules.

Best protection costs least - ie Ufer grounds.  These installed when footings are poured.  Otherwise, a homeowner must spend more money on $10 earth ground electrodes. Required when more effective earth grounds were not installed.

No protector does protection .  Not one.  Ineffective plug-in protectors are profit centers.  Other companies, so well known for their integrity, provide 'whole house protectors.  Those also do not do protection.  Instead, effective when connected low impedance (ie less than 10 feet) to the same item that made Ben Franklin's lightning rods so effective.

An informed recommendation always - as in always - answers this question. Where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate?  Just another reason why informed homeowners spend $10 for each 8 plus foot earth ground electrode.  Because a protector (lightning rod or 'whole house' protector) is only as effective as its earth ground.  Where do hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate?    Destructively inside through appliances. Or harmlessly outside in earth.  Only a homeowner makes that choice.

Nothing new here.  This science has been well proven for over 100 years in every facility that cannot have damage.  And is little known to majority only educated by hearsay, wild speculation, and advertising.  Yes, the many can be that easily manipulated by advertising lies.  As demonstrated 70 years ago when almost all Americans knew that smoking cigarettes increased health.  They also ignored well proven science and numbers.  Scams are that easily promoted.

Another copy and paste job. Trolling sure has seen better days. To bad you don't have any original thoughts. At least change things up some. Ok...Thank you

[westom]

12 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Another copy and paste job. 

Informed professionals have been saying this for over 100 years.  If he had anything useful to contributet, he would have.  larryllix  accurately described problems created by electricians who are not taught these basic electrical concepts.  Protectors are only effective when connected low impedance (ie less than 10 feet) to single point earth ground.  

He also notes, "These units are beneficial in probably 99% of the cases though."  An IEEE Standard says it will do 99.5% to 99.9% protection.  And then says: 

Quote

Still, a 99.5% protection level will reduce the incidence of direct strokes from one stroke per 30 years ... to one stroke per 6000 years ...   Protection at 99.5% is the practical choice.

The Steve Jenkins article is also informative.  But he makes a few mistakes.  No protector does protection.  A protector is only a connecting device to what does the protection - earth ground.  Incoming TV cable, for example, needs no protector.  A hardwire makes that low impedance (ie less than 10 foot) connection to what does protection.

Type 3 protectors cannot be located where a low impedance ground connection exists.  But a protector is effective when connected low impedance to earth.

The 'whole house' solution is only a 'secondary' protection layer.  Only earth ground defines each protection layer.  A plug-in protector has no earth ground - is not a layer of protection.  A homeowner should also inspect his 'primary' protection layer.  Steve Jenkins may not; which explains those burned protectors.

Any protector that fails did no effective protection.  Since lightning is typically 20,000 amps, then a minimal 'whole house' protector must be 50,000 amps.  Those burned protectors (if I remember the numbers) were undersized - therefore ineffective.

He also did not know that other incoming utilities (ie telephone) already installed protection for free.  Protection that is effective if he provides, inspects, and maintains what makes protectors effective - earth ground electrodes.

Apparently misunderstood - best protection for ground and neutral wires (as larryllix explains) is that low impedance hardwire that connects direct to earth ground electrodes.  No protector needed for those wires that must already have best protection.

Effective protection always answers this question.  Where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate?  If outside (the 'whole house' solution), then everything inside remains undamaged.  Then best protection, already inside every appliance, is not overwhelmed.

An honest recommendation includes numbers (ie 50,000 amps, hundreds of thousands of joule, less than 10 feet, multiple electrodes 8 feet or deeper).   lilyoyo1 did not even know 'whole house' solution can only be installed at any time.  The most critical item may need be corrected / upgraded as larryllix explains.  A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Earth ground defines each layer of protection. Protectors without that earth ground are ineffective. 

 

[Jamison_IO]

So, in line with the "ground is the best protection" theory, how does one measure and ensure their ground its in the best possible condition to protect the expensive electronics?

Also, how does a god, but simple ground protect from a spike that otherwise would damage the inline electronics? Is there a way the grounding system inherently siphons off, or redirects, the excess energy to ground instead of it going through to items connected to the system?

[lilyoyo1]

37 minutes ago, Jamison_IO said:

So, in line with the "ground is the best protection" theory, how does one measure and ensure their ground its in the best possible condition to protect the expensive electronics?

Also, how does a god, but simple ground protect from a spike that otherwise would damage the inline electronics? Is there a way the grounding system inherently siphons off, or redirects, the excess energy to ground instead of it going through to items connected to the system?

Don't listen to Westom. He's a troll that goes around doing copy and paste jobs to act like he knows something (look at his responses to me). Go with your whole home surge protector and you'll be ok. 

Don't get me wrong, grounding matters but at this point the cost to check and potentially redo your grounding is a serious cost.

Surge protection is a3 step thing. One at the meter, whole whole and then local such as the ones with power strips and outlets. Mine was installed at the meter when the house was built. Your utility company may or may not allow them so I wouldn't worry about it touch. The others you can control so I would focus on that part. 

[westom]

7 hours ago, Jamison_IO said:

 Is there a way the grounding system inherently siphons off, or redirects, the excess energy to ground instead of it going through to items connected to the system?

Concept was demonstrated by Ben Franklin.  Lightning is an electrical connection from charges in a cloud (ie three miles up) to charges in earth (ie four miles distant).  A shortest connection is down to earth and then four miles to those charges.

Lightning took a best path to earth through a conductive church steeple.  But wood is not a very good conductor.  So that maybe 20,000 amps created a high voltage.  Church steeple damaged.

Franklin connected a lightning rod to earth ground.  Now a best connection to earth was that connection.  So that maybe 20,000 amps created a near zero voltage.  Nothing damaged.

Lightning striking utility wires many blocks down the street takes a best path to earth through conductive appliances.  But appliances are not very good conductors.  So that 20,000 amps will increase voltage as necessary to blow through appliances.  Appliances damaged.

Facilities all over the world connect a 'whole house protector low impedance (ie less than 10 feet) to earth ground.  Now a best connection to earth is that connection.  So that maybe 20,000 amps creates a near zero voltage.  Nothing damaged.  Robust protection inside every appliance is not overwhelmed.

Demonstrated by those four paragraphs: lightning rod and 'whole house' protector do similar. One to protect a structure.  Other to protect appliances.  Both do something better when that earth ground is upgraded / enhanced.  A conductive connection to earth means a destructive current is not flowing destructively through / inside a building or appliances.  In both cases, that hundreds of thousands of joules dissipates harmlessly outside.

Protection is never about excess energy.  Protection is about how an electric current connects a cloud to earthborne charges. If that path is not anywhere inside a building, then nothing (not even a protector) is damaged.

An effective protector is only a connecting device.  Lightning can be 20,000 amps.  So a 'whole house' protector must be at least 50,000 amps.  Those are routinely sold in big box hardware stores and electrical supply houses.  Manufactured by a long list of other companies well known for their integrity.  And that protector must have a dedicated hardwire to connect to your single point earth ground.  A homeowner provides, inspects, and must maintain his earth ground.

Earthing is not only essential.  It must be installed as demonstrated by this utility's good, bad, and ugly (preferred, wrong, and right) solutions at:  https://www.duke-energy.com/energy-education/power-quality/tech-tips
  then select Tech Tip 8.

The art of earthing is defined by factors such as neighborhood history over the past few decades.  And conductivity of earth.  For example, sand is less conductive. So more earth electrodes are necessary.  For most homeowners, two eight+ foot copper clad rods do quite fine.

Plenty of case studies from many professionals can be provided to demonstrate this.  Above defines a well proven strategy for effective protection that also typically costs less money.  And has been routine in facilities that cannot have damage even over 100 years ago.  Also inspect your 'primary' protection layer.

Franklin demonstrated the concept.  Protection is always about hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly absorbed outside in earth.  Then a current from cloud to distant charges is not taking paths destructively through / inside the house.

Ignore another who is only reciting what he was told to believe.  We did this stuff routinely.  Even learned from a few disastrous mistakes.  We learned by even replacing destroyed semiconductors - to trace the path of a surge.  Protectors never do protection. And can sometimes make damage easier.  Effective protectors connect destructive transients to earth.  A better protector means it absorbs less joules.

Also inspect your 'primary' protection layer.  Currents connected to earth via that layer need not be earthed by your 'secondary' protection layer or destructively via appliances. That layer is also defined by its earth ground.

 

Edited September 20, 2019 by westom

[palayman]

In Southeast, Ground Rods May Not Protect Homes Against Lightning

https://news.ufl.edu/archive/2002/08/in-southeast-ground-rods-may-not-protect-homes-against-lightning.html

[Jamison_IO]

Thanks for the suggestions, folks. And to Westom, this is obviously some sort of personal crusade (or maybe unhealthy obsession) for you with this topic. Below is just a small sampling of what I found when I googled your latest response. I appreciate the information, but now, I think we should all move on.

[apostolakisl]

On 9/15/2019 at 4:40 PM, nadler said:

I have this:

https://www.amazon.com/Leviton-51120-1-Panel-Protector-240-Volt/dp/B00081K55Q/ref=sr_1_15?keywords=whole+house+surge+protection&qid=1568583448&sr=8-15

Had it installed by an electrician when I upgraded my panel years ago.  I've had no problems since and I'm glad I have it.

I have these as well.  I have 3 panels and put one on each panel.  They are very easy to install if you understand how a panel works and know how to be safe in there.  I have had them for 10 years and have had no problems.  Of course, I have no idea if I would have had problems without them.  

Realize that these surge blockers are designed for power spikes on the utility lines.  Utility line spikes can come from things besides lightening.  Surge blockers are not for lightening strikes that hit something else in the area of your home and flow through your home.  The idea for preventing a lightening strike in the area from entering your home is the Faraday cage concept.  Sensitive buildings will implement this to the nines, but for the common home owner, have one (and only one) good ground.  Never connect buildings to each other.  If you are running communications between buildings, use fiber or radio only.  No copper!  Two grounds is a recipe for disaster.

Edited September 21, 2019 by apostolakisl

[westom]

21 hours ago, Jamison_IO said:

Thanks for the suggestions, folks. And to Westom, this is obviously some sort of personal crusade (or maybe unhealthy obsession) for you with this topic. 

Plenty of urban myths are widely believed.  Including conclusions from shotgunning, wasting of troops by leaders who have a political agenda  and no military grasp, some ridiculous need to constantly replace thermal compound,  the purpose of any organization is it product (not profits),  and other misinformation only based in an automatic belief from hearsay.  One 'fundamental' point in all such discussions: if they don't say 'why'' and with numbers, then it is best treated as a lie.

An important point that was made repeatedly and that others agree.  Earth ground defines all protection.  To have equipotential means a protector (or a hardwire) must connect low impedance to 'single point earth ground'.  Any incoming conductors not connected to that single point ground means equipotential has been violated.  That ground (not any protector or surge blocker) defines protection.  That ground requires most attention because it (and not any protector) defines the protection layer.  Many see a protector; not what is more important - earth ground.

Repeatedly mentioned with a specific intent; above was only about a 'secondary' protection layer.  Nobody yet asked about another critically important item: a 'primary' protection layer.

Surge protection is only one example.  How misinformation is so easily promoted and believed really is the point.  After all, most everyone once knew smoking cigarettes increased health.  Widely believed myths about protection also demonstrate this same 'fundamental' problem.  Some are so attached to myths rather than learn how to separate myths from facts.  Surge protection is a classic example.  Vietnam was another.

 

[westom]

16 hours ago, apostolakisl said:

I have these as well.  I have 3 panels and put one on each panel.  They are very easy to install if you understand how a panel works and know how to be safe in there.  I have had them for 10 years and have had no problems.  Of course, I have no idea if I would have had problems without them.  

Your telco is a $multi-million computer with copper wires connected to every other building in town.  As a result, it suffers about 100 surges with each storm.  And no damage.  Why?  Because best protection is defined by a single point earth ground that every incoming copper wire connects to.  If any telco CO suffers damage, it is a major news story.  Properly earthed protection is that well proven.

Same applies to those 3 panels.  A 'whole house' protector is ineffective if not connected low impedance (ie less than 3 meters) to earth ground.  IOW that protector in a subpanel (that has no earth ground) will do little if any protection.  Because protection is done by its earth ground that exists in the main panel. 

 

Edited September 21, 2019 by westom

[apostolakisl]

On 9/21/2019 at 8:02 AM, westom said:

Your telco is a $multi-million computer with copper wires connected to every other building in town.  As a result, it suffers about 100 surges with each storm.  And no damage.  Why?  Because best protection is defined by a single point earth ground that every incoming copper wire connects to.  If any telco CO suffers damage, it is a major news story.  Properly earthed protection is that well proven.

Same applies to those 3 panels.  A 'whole house' protector is ineffective if not connected low impedance (ie less than 3 meters) to earth ground.  IOW that protector in a subpanel (that has no earth ground) will do little if any protection.  Because protection is done by its earth ground that exists in the main panel. 

 

That is not how they work.  Read the instructions.

[larryllix]

2 hours ago, apostolakisl said:

That is not how they work.  Read the instructions.

We always had to spend 10's of thousands of dollars on special transformers to isolate our electrical grid station equipment  from telco (Bell) stations.

Bell would sent high voltages, right from their great grounding system, into our equipment every time we had a high current fault, and burn out our sensitive relays and electronics. Eventually things went away from DC signals and went to tone systems that could be insulated,and it eliminated some of the telco lineman idiots from disconnecting or reversing polarities on critical trip lines.

[lilyoyo1]

I don't know why everyone is still replying to Westom. He's a troll who simply copies and pasted stuff from websites that have no bearing on the conversation. Hopefully @Michel KohanimKohanim band him again

[westom]

18 hours ago, larryllix said:

Bell would sent high voltages, right from their great grounding system, into our equipment every time we had a high current fault, and burn out our sensitive relays and electronics.  

Telco's earth ground did not create damage.  His missing earth ground made damage possible.  If both ends of an interconnecting wire are not connected low impedance to single point earth ground, then a strike to one building can be a direct strike to electronics in another.  So many professional citations demonstrate this.  Even the legendary Polyphaser App Notes demonstrated it.

First, a surge is a current source.  That means its voltage will increase as necessary to blow through anything that foolishly tries to block it - (ie isolation transformer).  Protection is always about connecting that destructive energy to earth ground BEFORE it can enter a building.  Then that transient does not hunt for earth ground destructively inside a building,  It need not blow through galvanic isolation that already exists inside electronics.

Second, isolation transformers do not 'block' longitudinal mode currents.  Destructive transients are longitudinal.

Third, all telco connected facilities (that have no damage) do effective earthing.  Today and over 100 years ago.  Somehow a millimeters separation inside isolation transformers will block what three miles of sky cannot?  Numbers demonstrate why isolation transformers and other magic 'blocking' boxes are ineffective.

lilyoyo1 has yet to cite an electrical concept nor even one technical number.  Disparaging remarks contribute nothing honest.  Somehow millimeter gaps between wires will block what three miles of sky cannot.  Really?

Which 'whole house' protector is best?  One that will conduct at least 50,000 amps.  That defines protector life expectancy.  And one with the low impedance (ie less than 10 foot) connection to earth.  That defines protection during each surge.

Edited September 23, 2019 by westom

[westom]

20 hours ago, apostolakisl said:

That is not how they work.  Read the instructions.

Please quote the relevant instruction.  For which protector?

[apostolakisl]

29 minutes ago, westom said:

Please quote the relevant instruction.  For which protector?

Oh, lets see.  I suppose you could look at the original post you so authoritatively quoted me on where I respond to another use saying that "I have 3 of those" referring to the model he lists.  But for the benefit of those out there who actually need help, it is the leviton 51120--1.  The name for this device is "branch panel mounted surge protection device".  Yes, that is the title of the instruction sheet, first three words are "Branch panel mounted".  

[lilyoyo1]

2 hours ago, westom said:

 

lilyoyo1 has yet to cite an electrical concept nor even one technical number.  Disparaging remarks contribute nothing honest.  Somehow millimeter gaps between wires will block what three miles of sky cannot.  Really?

 

I don't have to cite anything. I'm not on here copying and pasting irrelevant information like you are. The op asked for specific information that I have answered as well as others. You came here trolling as usual. Just making the op aware this is how you operate.

Edited September 23, 2019 by lilyoyo1

[apostolakisl]

45 minutes ago, larryllix said:

It is clear you don't really know much about how grounding works in a telco central station. The telco also spends many thousands of dollars to insulate their grounding system from other grounding systems using isolation transformers and neutralising transformers.

When you conduct the telcos ground into other zones it becomes dangerous and can cause damage to other property. This why in common residential applications a carbon block is passed through to quench these high voltage surges to the customer's ground potential. To connect to some commercial properties an isolation transformer and carbons are used or neutralizing transformers and carbon blocks and/or arcing tubes are used.

Sent using Tapatalk
 

My solution is  . . . .no telco.