Using X10 Motion sensors? From the wiki

[RichTJ99]

Hi,

 

I was setting up one of my Insteon motion sensors & came across this:

 

http://www.universal-devices.com/mwiki/ ... on_Sensors

 

It talks about using X10 motion sensors with the ISY. How is this accomplished? How does the ISY hear the X10?

 

Thanks,

Rich

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi Rich,

 

The PLM is capable of sending/receiving X10 messages. All you have to do is to make programs for the House Code/Unit Code of your X10 device.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

Hi,

 

I was setting up one of my Insteon motion sensors & came across this:

 

http://www.universal-devices.com/mwiki/ ... on_Sensors

 

It talks about using X10 motion sensors with the ISY. How is this accomplished? How does the ISY hear the X10?

 

Thanks,

Rich

[RichTJ99]

This will sound like a dumb question but... How does the ISY hear the X10 commands? I am using a W800 & homeseer currently, but I would rather the ISY monitor it.

[RichTJ99]

I guess my question is what hardware do I need to have the PLM/ISY recognize X10 commands from my wireless devices?

[TJF1960]

You will still need an x10 transceiver or something similar (like the EZX10RF from http://www.simplehomenet.com/cats.asp?id=10) to receive the transmission from the x10 motion sensor. The transceiver will then transmit the data on the power line where your plm/ISY will recognize it.

 

I have not used the EZX10RF so I cannot comment on how well it works with ISY, perhaps someone who uses one can comment.

 

I guess my question is what hardware do I need to have the PLM/ISY recognize X10 commands from my wireless devices?

[RichTJ99]

The way I envision this working is that the motion sensor sends a "G1" command & that the PLM can hear that & tell the ISY?

 

How hard is the programming of it? I just cant figure if it makes more sense to spend $125 on the X10 reciever, or spend $35 per motion & $35 per door sensor.

 

I am impressed with the Insteon items, but the fact is the X10 items are $5.00 per item. I also have a load of spares.

 

I could see anything new being Insteon, but the old could possible work for an additional $125.00.

 

I guess hearing how it works with the ISY might be good.

[markens]

I guess hearing how it works with the ISY might be good.

I have an old X10 RF remote and TM751 transceiver unit, and the ISY works flawlessly in receiving the X10 signals from the powerline. As Michel said above, you use ISY programs to easily detect and act on the X10 commands. The ISY can send X10 commands to the powerline as well, also easily via program control.

 

--Mark

[MikeB]

This will sound like a dumb question but... How does the ISY hear the X10 commands? I am using a W800 & homeseer currently, but I would rather the ISY monitor it.

 

I use the W800's cousin, the V572A, in my home for a couple random X10 RF devices.

[RichTJ99]

So, the main reason I want to swap is I would like to become less dependant on Homeseer.

 

The main status page on Homeseer is excellent. I like being able to see what time doors were opened & closed last (same with motion). The ISY Web interface is pretty lousy at best.

 

I would want the ISY to be able to update homeseer to the X10 motion. It sounds like the status changes are not always updated though which would defeat the purpose.

 

Is this conceptually how it should work:

 

So, the X10 motion would send a signal, the V572A (Mike- how does this talk to the ISY or PLM?) or the TM751, or the EZX10RF would hear the signal & then relay it to the ISY?

 

Then the iSY hears "G1" & responds by running a program with that trigger?

 

Can the ISY do virtual devices? Say Virtual Motion 1 as a device & when the ISY hears "G1", it sets Virtual Motion status to On, then after 60 seconds of no motion, the program sets Virtual Motion 1 to Off?

[MikeB]

So, the X10 motion would send a signal, the V572A (Mike- how does this talk to the ISY or PLM?) or the TM751, or the EZX10RF would hear the signal & then relay it to the ISY?

 

The V572A is powerline, so the PLM would "hear" the X10 signals over the powerline. I would place the V572A fairly close to the PLM to ensure reliable communications.

 

 

Can the ISY do virtual devices? Say Virtual Motion 1 as a device & when the ISY hears "G1", it sets Virtual Motion status to On, then after 60 seconds of no motion, the program sets Virtual Motion 1 to Off?

 

Not currently, but you could use an ISY program as a variable in that manner. I'm not sure if that would help with your Homeseer integration (I've never used Homeseer).

 

 

I've never used one, but the EZX10RF is a bit different in that it links X10 codes directly to Insteon devices. No need for ISY Programs once it is installed and configured.

[RichTJ99]

I am not entirely sure how to get this done. I think I need to figure out a better plan.

 

My biggest issue is that the X10 motion sensors are so cheap I have a number of htem outside, they get rained on, etc & when they stop working, I grab another $5.00 motion sensor to replace it. No big deal. A $35 Insteon Motion Sensor, I wouldnt be so quick to leave exposed to the elements.

 

When homeseer sees G1, it updates the status of the device from off to on. Then it auto offs after 60 seconds. It doesnt bother listening for hte off.

 

The main reason I like the status page is they have a WAP version for my cell phone which is very easy to use. Its nice to see when the cleaning lady came & left, etc.

 

Anyway on to my issue, right now, if Homeseer is shut down, theres nothing listening to the X10 commands, no email notifications, etc. I like the idea of migrating all functionality to the ISY which is always on & in a power outage, will turn itself back on.

 

Using homeseer for an easy to view monitor system would be OK too.

 

Some ISY limitations:

 

1. Email notifications are limited & there seems to be no message subject control.

2. HTML view lacks an easy way to see events.

 

[bpwwer]

I am not entirely sure how to get this done. I think I need to figure out a better plan.

 

This is just an idea, I don't have any X10 motion sensors or any X10 RF devices anymore so hopefully someone else can correct anything I'm wrong about.

 

1) Use a V572A or W800 to move the X10 signals to the power line.

 

2) Create 2 programs on the ISY for each motion sensor. The first sets the second one on and then off after a delay.

 

if X10 G1 status ON
then
  set program motion-1 to true
  wait 60
  set program motion-1 to false

 

I don't think the second program has to have any code in it at all, it is just acting like a true/false variable.

 

Then in HomeSeer, hide the first program (filter it out in the config page) and use the second (motion-1) for your motion status.

 

You can then use HomeSeer events to trigger on motion-1 going true or false to send whatever notifications you want.

 

It might be possible to do this with one program per motion sensor, but I'll leave that to the ISY programming experts [/code]

[fitzpatri8]

What you want to do is have that x10 code trigger a program.

 

Even if the program has no actions, it will update the timestamp in the ISY's Programs list so you can see when it was last activated (so you can see when the housekeeper was there, for instance).

 

If you also have that program send a notification, that program's name will be included in the subject line of the email or text message. If you name a program Living Room Motion, the subject line of the notification email in that program will be Living Room Motion: Alert.

[RichTJ99]

I am not entirely sure how to get this done. I think I need to figure out a better plan.

 

This is just an idea, I don't have any X10 motion sensors or any X10 RF devices anymore so hopefully someone else can correct anything I'm wrong about.

 

1) Use a V572A or W800 to move the X10 signals to the power line.

 

Thats a good question, how do I get the w800 signal (or the V572A) onto the powerline without hitting a PC first? They both have serial cable connections.

 

2) Create 2 programs on the ISY for each motion sensor. The first sets the second one on and then off after a delay.

 

if X10 G1 status ON
then
  set program motion-1 to true
  wait 60
  set program motion-1 to false

 

I don't think the second program has to have any code in it at all, it is just acting like a true/false variable.

 

 

So do I need to do any second program?

 

Then in HomeSeer, hide the first program (filter it out in the config page) and use the second (motion-1) for your motion status.

 

You can then use HomeSeer events to trigger on motion-1 going true or false to send whatever notifications you want.

 

It might be possible to do this with one program per motion sensor, but I'll leave that to the ISY programming experts [/code]

 

Now that is an interestng approach. Homeseer will add that program as a device ID, so it doesnt matter if its a program or something else. Cool stuff!

 

I just need to figure out how to get the X10 onto the powerline now.

 

 

EDIT: Sorry about the wierd quotes. A programmer I am not...

[RichTJ99]

What you want to do is have that x10 code trigger a program.

 

Even if the program has no actions, it will update the timestamp in the ISY's Programs list so you can see when it was last activated (so you can see when the housekeeper was there, for instance).

 

If you also have that program send a notification, that program's name will be included in the subject line of the email or text message. If you name a program Living Room Motion, the subject line of the notification email in that program will be Living Room Motion: Alert.

 

How does a program have no actions? Or more clearly, how will the program be run if it has no actions?

 

I never thought about that, thats a great way to do email notifications.

[MikeB]

Not sure about the W800 (my understanding is that it is serial only), but the V572A interfaces with an X10 module to put signals on the powerline.

[fitzpatri8]

The v572 requires a x10 PSC05 interface to transmit x10 signals via a power line carrier signal.

 

Your program could be as simple as:

 

Program Content for 'Front Room Motion'

If X10 'A1/ON  (3)' is Received

Then No Actions

Else No Actions

 

* When the motion sensor transmitted A1 ON, the v572 would receive the wireless signal and broadcast it via the PSC05 as a power line signal.

 

* The Insteon PLM would hear the power line signal and trigger the ISY program.

 

* The ISY would update the Programs's Last Run Time to the current date & time. (Log into the ISY, but instead of going to the Admin Console click on Programs to see the 'Last Run Time' of all your programs.)

 

You could also send an email notification, but then you have to add a notification limit. Those x10 motion sensors can send out a new ON signal every few seconds while they continue to see motion, so having it email you as the housekeeper vacuums can easily fill your mailbox and run through your cell phone's allotment of text messages!

[RichTJ99]

So in terms of hardware, I could use:

 

 

PowerLinc Serial/TW523 & CD-ROM

http://www.smarthome.com/1132B/PowerLin ... put/p.aspx

 

&

 

V572A

http://www.smarthome.com/4831N/All-Hous ... ver/p.aspx

 

I can plug them all into the PLM?

 

Can I take the coax & existing antenna from the W800 & plug it into the v572A?

 

In terms of cost, the PLS & V572A are about $100 bucks. That gets the ISY to hear wireless X10 directly.

 

The alternative is to buy more insteon triggerlincs & Motion detectors.

 

The cheaper solution is the X10 route, but I am not sure its the "better" route.

 

I admit the X10 works just fine for my needs but changing out the batteries is annoying.

 

I love the idea that if the Homeseer PC is shut down, everything would still work (minus voice notifications).

 

Any opinions?

[markens]

How does a program have no actions? Or more clearly, how will the program be run if it has no actions?

A program can be totally empty (no conditions and no actions) and still be very useful as kind of a variable to remember state.

 

With no conditions, it will generally be run manually or under control of another program.

 

With no actions, the program simply exits, and the program's status will be TRUE if it ran the 'Then' part, or FALSE if it ran the 'Else' part. Even with no actions.

 

So another program could run this empty program via 'Run Then' to make it TRUE, or 'Run Else' to make it FALSE. Other programs can use this status as part of their conditions.

 

--Mark

[IndyMike]

RichTJ99,

 

You had asked for opinions on the V572a. Well, it's pretty much the Cadillac of the transceiver lineup, but you probably already know that since you use the W800.

 

Other options include:

 

1) X10 TM751: Can receive on one house code (16 Unit codes). Decent range, built in relay (loud). Unfortunately, this device does not have a powerline receiver. It hears RF, and then transmits on the powerline. Without a transceiver, the device can't sample the powerline for existing activity before it transmits (it's known for stepping on other transmissions). Cost:$6 on ebay

 

2) X10 RR501: Similar to the TM751 only this unit has a powerline receiver and therefore doesn't step on other transmissions (Collision avoidance). Physically large, good range, built in relay (loud). Cost: $8 on ebay.

 

3) Leviton HCPRF: Can receive all house codes (similar to the V572). Decent range, built in outlet control (quiet), X10 2-way device (can be polled for status), physically small, includes collision avoidance. Device includes Levitons' Intellisense AGC (very nice and reliable). Cost: $39 on Smarthome.

 

4) WGL V572RF32: Similar to the V572, but this device can receive 32 bit RF security codes and translate them to a standard X10 house/unit code. Used with DS10a/MS10a RF security devices. Cost ~$100 HNUSA.

 

That's pretty much the waterfront. You can start simple (RR501) and gain experience with integrating your X10 with the ISY or go all out with the V572.

 

A few additional words on the "collision avoidance" feature - This feature allows devices to test the powerline for an existing X10 transmission prior to starting it's own transmission. I do not know if they can recognize an Insteon transmission as valid data. It's very possible that X10 devices will see Insteon traffic as noise and the collision avoidance will be inoperative.

 

That said, I have a number of X10 motion activated switches and flood lamps and have not seen a degradation in my Insteon communications.

 

IM

[RichTJ99]

IM,

 

Thanks for the list of choices. That RR501 is the right price but since it only does 1 house code, I would need at least 2 (one for motions, one for the DS10A's). I am not even sure that that the unit would hear DS10A traffic as I dont think its housecode based.

 

I am leaning towards the V572A (also want to make sure thats the right device in my post above) & a PowerLinc Serial connector. I do want to make sure that that combo will hear the DS10A's. Again, since its not a standard X10 housecode, I am not sure.

 

With Smarthomes return policy, trying it out to see if it suits my needs seems to be a no brainer.

 

Thanks,

Rich

[fitzpatri8]

No, the v572a does not support security devices like the ds10. For that, you'd need to use the V572RF32.

[chuckl]

I just need to figure out how to get the X10 onto the powerline now.

quote]

 

Sorry if you discovered the answer already for this... I use HomeSeer and the W800 for my X10 device integration. I bought the AC-RF2 plug-in which offers the capability to retransmit the X10 signals on the powerline. I don't believe that you need to buy any other hardware. I'm currently using that approach to let my ISY monitor my motion sensors' states and hoping one day, the W800 will be able to interface directly into the ISY through its serial port.

[RichTJ99]

No, the v572a does not support security devices like the ds10. For that, you'd need to use the V572RF32.

 

Thanks, I also called smarthome & they said they do not sell it. Or actually the person I spoke to said they list everything they sell on the website. The RF32 isnt listed.

[RichTJ99]

Chuck,

 

Thanks for your comments. I also am using the same combo as you. I am looking to continue to use Homeseer/ACRF2/W800 until I figure things out. I am looking to make it so that if Homeseer is shutdown or the PC is off, that my motion events still take place, even if they are not logged due to the HS2 server being down.

 

I was under the impression that the X10 signals are not put onto the powerline, but that they are transmitted to the PC.

 

Is your ISY seeing the changes or is Homeseer seeing the changes in the X10 status?

 

http://forum.universal-devices.com/view ... light=w800

 

Thanks,

Rich

 

 

I just need to figure out how to get the X10 onto the powerline now.

quote]

 

Sorry if you discovered the answer already for this... I use HomeSeer and the W800 for my X10 device integration. I bought the AC-RF2 plug-in which offers the capability to retransmit the X10 signals on the powerline. I don't believe that you need to buy any other hardware. I'm currently using that approach to let my ISY monitor my motion sensors' states and hoping one day, the W800 will be able to interface directly into the ISY through its serial port.