What are the plans for the ISY (Repost of laymanspc)

[lilyoyo1]

@LaymansPC I have taken the liberty to repost your topic so that myself and others can commit on your question/statements:

 

Original message: Just as the topic asks:  What are the current plans for ISY?  I purchased my ISY994i/ZW back in 2014 and instantly fell in love the device, what it can do, and how it does it.  That being said, I've been much less than impressed by the frequency of available upgrades and the speed at which new devices are supported.  When I initially started into it, I thought it might be a good system to offer to clients.   Unfortunately, with the apparent lack of upgrades, improvements, or simple support for new Zwave devices, I've never felt comfortable actually offering it to my customers.

Please tell me things are going to increase in pace.

Michel Kohanim replied:

Need more clarification on statements such as "or simple support for new Zwave devices". What's not supported? 

With regards to the pace, we do not release anything unless we are ourselves 100% convinced of its stability. So, the pace is not going to change.

With kind regards,
Michel

 

Note:  I was unable to locate a reply button in the previous thread.  Michel tried to assist in PM.

New message: Clarification on "or simple support for new ZWave devices"  should have read "simply".  As for the devices I'm referring to, basically any of the newer ZWave hardware labeled Gen5 or ZWave Plus.  I understand such things may require an upgraded ZWave module in the ISY, or even newer ISY hardware, but I'm wondering what is in the works and what sort of timeline such things are projected for.  I'd love to have some of the Aeotec door sensors and some of the other newer hardware that's available, but they currently do not work with the ISY.

[LaymansPC]

Thanks!

[lilyoyo1]

I read your post and like @Michel KohanimKohanim have the same question " what is not supported"? I've installed many gen5 devices without fail or issue. There may be some unsupported devices but from my experience those are generally due to low cost oems taking shortcuts or other mfg.  not supporting zwave a certain way requiring UDI and others to create custom code to get them working. That's not on the controller but the person who made the device. Whether it's smartthings, homeseer, fibaro, ISY, indigo, etc. I have not seen a single controller support every device made. 

In regards to improvements and upgrades what are you looking to do that the isy can't do? I have my isy connected to RTI, ecobee, hue, elk, Google, Alexa, harmony, and Sonos. There are many others who use it with other stuff such as Tesla, lifx, homekit (can't figure out why someone would want to with homekit. Lol), LG, Sony, and much much more. 

I install the ISY frequently in customer's homes without issue. All devices I se have been tied and tested to work and they do. I refuse to use anything I wouldn't put in my own home which means no name oems are a no no.  (Historically those have the greatest issues with all controllers). Saving the customer (or me making) a few extra bucks isn't worth sacrificing the time, effort, or my name. 

Once installed, I generally do not upgrade any of my customers ISY's unless I'm called back to add or do something that requires something the isy couldn't do before. I appreciate that UDI does not rush out new firmwares. As an installer and user, I like that fact that I can use the latest firmware with confidence that I won't have any surprises. While I still test in my home first, I enjoy knowing I will not break something in my house or someone else's just to add a single device. For some their speed causes consternation. For others like me it's much appreciated. In the end we're turning devices on, off, or dimming. How much more can you really add?

With all that said, what is it that you are trying to do with the isy that you can't and what devices are you trying to use that you can't. Simply making an open statement the way you did is akin to taking your car to the shop and simply saying it's broke. 

[simplextech]

To add to this.  The ONLY devices I know of that do not function properly with the ISY are "SOME" multi-sensors that veer off from standards (looking at Fibaro).  Otherwise I'm not aware of any Z-Wave device that adhere's to the Z-Wave standard that does not work with the ISY.  I'm more than happy to test devices, verify and add them to the support list.

[LaymansPC]

Aeotec Gen5 hidden door sensors are what I'm beating my head on most recently.  ISY sees them, but their status never changes.    

[lilyoyo1]

What firmware/UI are you on? Did you try changing different parameters?

[LaymansPC]

I stayed on latest stable over the years;  4.7.3 or whatever most recently.  I've been wanting to implement some changes, new devices, and redo everything from the ground up; so I just moved to the latest beta this past week in hopes that some of the newer hardware would be better supported.

I changed no parameters.  I would never have thought a simple binary sensor would require such things.  With other controllers it works like any other binary sensor and shows "OFF" or "ON" and nothing needs changed.  With ISY it shows "ON" all the time.

I just find it frustrating to see so little change in 5 years when the industry as a whole is absolutely exploding with new stuff.  I'm just curious what UD has planned for the future.  New hardware?  Upgrades for existing hardware?  New device support?  Like I said initially, I love what it does and how it does it, I just wish it did more and wondered if there was any plans in the works.

 

 

[asbril]

14 minutes ago, LaymansPC said:

I stayed on latest stable over the years;  4.7.3 or whatever most recently. 

5.0.X has added great features to ISY and you should really jump to the latest update. 

I know of no one having regrets moving to 5.0.15A. 

As mentioned by others there are very few Zwave devices that don't work with ISY and these are largely the cheapest devices. Go with the good brands and you will be ok.

The addition of Nodeservers has been quite spectacular with much more to come (I expect and hope....).

[larryllix]

2 hours ago, asbril said:

5.0.X has added great features to ISY and you should really jump to the latest update. 

I know of no one having regrets moving to 5.0.15A. 

As mentioned by others there are very few Zwave devices that don't work with ISY and these are largely the cheapest devices. Go with the good brands and you will be ok.

The addition of Nodeservers has been quite spectacular with much more to come (I expect and hope....).

...and real time clock availability and being able to save and restore device levels into variables when you want to "borrow" a lamp to flash your garage door was left open and then return the lamp to whatever it was doing before you "borrowed it".

Got power windows in your vehicle? Of course you do. get v5!! 

[lilyoyo1]

2 hours ago, LaymansPC said:

I stayed on latest stable over the years;  4.7.3 or whatever most recently.  I've been wanting to implement some changes, new devices, and redo everything from the ground up; so I just moved to the latest beta this past week in hopes that some of the newer hardware would be better supported.

I changed no parameters.  I would never have thought a simple binary sensor would require such things.  With other controllers it works like any other binary sensor and shows "OFF" or "ON" and nothing needs changed.  With ISY it shows "ON" all the time.

I just find it frustrating to see so little change in 5 years when the industry as a whole is absolutely exploding with new stuff.  I'm just curious what UD has planned for the future.  New hardware?  Upgrades for existing hardware?  New device support?  Like I said initially, I love what it does and how it does it, I just wish it did more and wondered if there was any plans in the works.

 

 

How hasn't the isy changed? I asked previously about what you want the isy to do that it cant and you still haven't answered.

You talk about device support but only mentioned a single product which may or may not be an isy issue. 

It would be much easier to understand where you're coming from and to receive answers if you give detailed explanations. What you're doing right now is akin to someone saying something isn't working but not saying what isn't working

[LaymansPC]

Right at this moment, I just want it to recognize these door sensors that work fine on other (crappier) controllers.  I've came across other devices labeled gen5 and zwave plus and have never gotten any of it to work on ISY.  Some stuff gets installed as UNINTIALIZED and won't do anything, others install seemingly properly, yet they still do nothing.  The only things that seem to work for me are the various GE dimmers and outlets and I have a couple styles of motion sensors that work great (one is a basic ecolink motion sensor, other does motion and temp).  I also run some Insteon hardware with the ISY without issue (I've found the Insteon door sensors eat batteries too quickly and end up with apparently unrecoverable issues if you don't change the batteries before they fully fail).

[lilyoyo1]

You still aren't answering any questions. At this point it's an empty complaint. A problem can't be solved nor can you be helped without specifics. You say the isy can't do certain things but you have yet to say what you are trying to do. You say it doesn't work with devices but only name 1 thing.

If there is a problem have can UDI improve if you give zero information. Especially when you mention a device that they feel is supported. As an installer you should know what troubleshooting entails to be able to articulate the problems you are experiencing, the steps taken, and the system setup. If you are looking at providing a service to people for money, you should be able to explain what you are trying to do and how they can help you achieve your desired goals. 

At this point I'm done. We cant help since you have no desire to provide us any type of information to get you going nor can UDI help either. 

In regards to Insteon. I've had batteries die on sensors without any issues getting them going again. Most likely it's not a device issue but how something is being done

[LaymansPC]

Keep in mind, my question wasn't answered either.  My question was questioned.  My original question was to find if there were going to be any upcoming changes to ISY.  The answer is apparently "no".

It is totally beside the point that my reason for asking is due to difficulty getting some hardware working.  Whether it be my fault or the fault of the ISY, fact is I have read through the tutorials and forums here and elsewhere and found no solutions besides pairing up multiple controllers and the explanation that not all devices work with all controllers, which I have accepted for years.  My hope was that with UD/ISY having one of the most function capable units out there, there would be changes in the works to make it more compatible (or at least easier to get working) with more hardware. 

You asked for me to get specific.  I cannot get more specific than a device that I have within inches of my hand.  I can get so specific as to retrieve logs or anything else.  The aeotec gen5 hidden door sensor works perfectly with a couple other controllers I have around (but do not like the way they handle devices/programs/etc...).  On these other controllers, status changes from off to on when you move it near the magnet.  Exclude and include the sensor on ISY, and the status remains "ON" all the time regardless of the magnet or anything else that I have tried (I have not tried anything with the parameters as you mentioned earlier).

Other devices I've tried that haven't worked really do not matter as I no longer have them available to try or test with.  They worked with other controllers and were used with those controllers elsewhere.

As for the Insteon door sensors.  Out of four the batteries died in, three give an error that the insteon engine cannot be determined, fourth doesn't power up at all.  Multiple resets of the PLM and other insteon hardware (lamp modules and outdoor modules) have no effect. In my opinion, they have simply failed.  They are from 2014 as well and have seen a lot of use.  They never worked more than a month without losing connection.  I really don't think AAA batteries really are suited for that sort of duty, so I would be happy to move to the Aeotec with their CR123A batteries.

With having no issues out of most hardware (26 mixed zwave/insteon devices and about 40-45 programs on my ISY), I'm fairly confident in how things are being done.  If there are some tricks or tips you can pass along, I'm grateful for the assistance. 

Even if we can determine a means of forcing these aeotec sensors to work by editing some parameters or whatever, it doesn't change the reasoning behind my original question because it should work out of the box, same as it does with other controllers.

Thanks for your time and take care

[lilyoyo1]

There is literally a whole forum section that details what the isy can do now (improvements over the years). As well as many posts spread out about their new system (also easily found on their website) about the upcoming release of their new product polisy.

I'm not going to rehash I'm details something that is so easily found. I mentioned in my earlier post that the isy now works with Sonos, hue, harmony, ecobee,Tesla, Google, Alexa, and many others.

You on the other hand still haven't provided any information about your setup to help troubleshoot the issues that you are having which are atypical for the avg. user. If you want help then help us help you by providing information about your setup.

If you want troubleshooting help to get your sensor working we're here to help. If your simply going to say it doesn't work but it does with other controllers then you're on your own. As I've constantly said, saying it's broke without details isn't going to get things fixed. What's your firmware and UI? What steps are you taking when adding the device to the isy, etc. 

[Brian H]

One of the issues with new Insteon Modules. Is Smarthome   SmartLabs.  They are known to not provide UDI with the proper documentation to implement it in the  ISY994i. I have seen some posted where UDI had tried with varied success backward engineer a module. Also they sometimes provided incorrect information or it was changed with improvements  that where never updated to developers and UDI. Been that way since I was part of the now defunct Insteon Developers Group. New management doesn't seem to be much better so far.

In the early days of Insteon. I also saw the list of manufacturers that where considering adding Insteon support but quietly dropped out.  Going to ZWave instead. Probably easier to deal with.

[oberkc]

16 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said:

I asked previously about what you want the isy to do that it cant and you still haven't answered.

 

9 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said:

You still aren't answering any questions.

Is this true?  I thought he answered that is was the Aeotec Gen5 hidden door sensor (post sunday 11:33) that was not linking

[lilyoyo1]

Yes it's true. He mentioned the device. There is no information on steps taken, system firmware and UI, network, etc. All things needed when troubleshooting a problem

[larryllix]

8 hours ago, LaymansPC said:

Keep in mind, my question wasn't answered either.  My question was questioned.  My original question was to find if there were going to be any upcoming changes to ISY.  The answer is apparently "no".

It is totally beside the point that my reason for asking is due to difficulty getting some hardware working.  Whether it be my fault or the fault of the ISY, fact is I have read through the tutorials and forums here and elsewhere and found no solutions besides pairing up multiple controllers and the explanation that not all devices work with all controllers, which I have accepted for years.  My hope was that with UD/ISY having one of the most function capable units out there, there would be changes in the works to make it more compatible (or at least easier to get working) with more hardware. 

You asked for me to get specific.  I cannot get more specific than a device that I have within inches of my hand.  I can get so specific as to retrieve logs or anything else.  The aeotec gen5 hidden door sensor works perfectly with a couple other controllers I have around (but do not like the way they handle devices/programs/etc...).  On these other controllers, status changes from off to on when you move it near the magnet.  Exclude and include the sensor on ISY, and the status remains "ON" all the time regardless of the magnet or anything else that I have tried (I have not tried anything with the parameters as you mentioned earlier).

Other devices I've tried that haven't worked really do not matter as I no longer have them available to try or test with.  They worked with other controllers and were used with those controllers elsewhere.

As for the Insteon door sensors.  Out of four the batteries died in, three give an error that the insteon engine cannot be determined, fourth doesn't power up at all.  Multiple resets of the PLM and other insteon hardware (lamp modules and outdoor modules) have no effect. In my opinion, they have simply failed.  They are from 2014 as well and have seen a lot of use.  They never worked more than a month without losing connection.  I really don't think AAA batteries really are suited for that sort of duty, so I would be happy to move to the Aeotec with their CR123A batteries.

With having no issues out of most hardware (26 mixed zwave/insteon devices and about 40-45 programs on my ISY), I'm fairly confident in how things are being done.  If there are some tricks or tips you can pass along, I'm grateful for the assistance. 

Even if we can determine a means of forcing these aeotec sensors to work by editing some parameters or whatever, it doesn't change the reasoning behind my original question because it should work out of the box, same as it does with other controllers.

Thanks for your time and take care

 

Now that we know more about your real complaint.

The description of problems sounds like a classic communications problem.  You have RF and/or powerline noises interfering with your system.
"Cannot determine Insteon engine" is a classic example of bad comms in the Insteon system. This is the way ISY reports it cannot receive a proper response of what device it is talking to.

You didn't ask about what changes were coming to ISY, but rather you asked if the speed of changes was going to accelerate, a typical troll question that has been seen here many times by first time posters, many times. Then another no-time poster account  placed a "like" on your post, as the tag team trolls usually do. AFAIC This was partly the reason you were grilled for specifics. When you didn't give them, and seem to skirt them, it made it appear as if this may be correct, unfortunately.  ISY receives much jealousy from other home automation systems and some are always looking to "expose" some perceived problem in a fairly perfect box. Apologies if you received the wrong end of the stick and welcome to the forums.

Yes, ISY development seems slow at times but it's "beta" versions have less bugs than some of the thermostats I have used that never upgrade.

[LaymansPC]

Yes, my real complaint is 5 years ago I bought an ISY and don't see where zwave device support has improved.  OK, they've added nodeservers and have a new addon box coming out, but how do these help support zwave devices that otherwise do not work with ISY out of the box?  I saw another thread where some folk want to upgrade zwave device firmware from the ISY but were told that is a zwave+ function of a 500 series chip, which we do not have.  Why?  Seems like such support would be a desirable function of something marketed as a zwave controller.  Adding other controllers seems like a very poor bandaid.  I would gladly buy whatever upgrades (or even entirely new ISY boxes) UD could come up with to solve these issues.

What you call a typical troll question: will the frequency of updates ever be increasing?  I call a legitimate question.  ZWave is a much more active segment of the industry now than it was 5 years ago when I purchased my ISY.  Lots of new devices, lots of new companies, etc..  I just see ISY as being surpassed on device compatibility, which I find very irritating considering it is the most function-capable controller available.

As for the questions over firmware, I do believe I answered that saying I stuck with the latest stable over the years until recently (last week) when I moved to the latest beta. 

As for the Insteon issues being "classic RF interference",  I would accept that as a potential source of the problems if it were not for the fact they worked fine for many years when changing the batteries once a month.  Even having an insteon lamp module within 3 feet of each of the insteon door sensors, if I let the batteries go more than a month they would lose communication.  I just don't think a AAA battery was the best choice by Insteon for a RF device.  I live in a very rural area that hardly even has any cellular signals floating around (there are cellular signals, but weak to the point of being unusable).  The only real sources of RF around my place are my wifi access points, my zwave network, and my insteon network.  At this point, the three that will power on give me the "engine cannot be determined" error even if they are laying within inches of the PLM.  Dirty power would be a possibility, the wiring in this rural area is nearly 100 years old.  What makes me think that is also a non issue is the fact the PLM can communicate over the lines to the lamp and outdoor modules without issue.  As stated, I don't really want to swap batteries that often again, so I'd prefer to go to the aeotec sensors and simply regard the insteon door sensors as "failed".  My other zwave sensors (binary motion sensors) that use the CR123A batteries last for many years.

 

[Michel Kohanim]

@LaymansPC,

I still don't know what other issues you have except for AeoTec Hidden Door Sensor Gen 5. Also, perhaps you are used to forum being the medium for support but, that's not how we operate. If you have support questions, you are welcome to submit a ticket. If you just want to complain about our slowness, well, we are slow. And, unfortunately, that's not going to change. If our slowness is a major issue for you vs. how ISY programs are handled (which you like), then I guess that answers the question. 

With regards to Z-Wave 500 series chip - and as I mentioned before - you do NOT need it. 

Now, let's not spend more bandwidth on complaints and cross-complaints. If you have specific issues with a Z-Wave device, you are welcome to submit a ticket and we'd be delighted to help you.

With kind regards,
Michel

[lilyoyo1]

1 hour ago, LaymansPC said:

Yes, my real complaint is 5 years ago I bought an ISY and don't see where zwave device support has improved.  OK, they've added nodeservers and have a new addon box coming out, but how do these help support zwave devices that otherwise do not work with ISY out of the box?  I saw another thread where some folk want to upgrade zwave device firmware from the ISY but were told that is a zwave+ function of a 500 series chip, which we do not have.  Why?  Seems like such support would be a desirable function of something marketed as a zwave controller.  Adding other controllers seems like a very poor bandaid.  I would gladly buy whatever upgrades (or even entirely new ISY boxes) UD could come up with to solve these issues.

What you call a typical troll question: will the frequency of updates ever be increasing?  I call a legitimate question.  ZWave is a much more active segment of the industry now than it was 5 years ago when I purchased my ISY.  Lots of new devices, lots of new companies, etc..  I just see ISY as being surpassed on device compatibility, which I find very irritating considering it is the most function-capable controller available.

As for the questions over firmware, I do believe I answered that saying I stuck with the latest stable over the years until recently (last week) when I moved to the latest beta. 

As for the Insteon issues being "classic RF interference",  I would accept that as a potential source of the problems if it were not for the fact they worked fine for many years when changing the batteries once a month.  Even having an insteon lamp module within 3 feet of each of the insteon door sensors, if I let the batteries go more than a month they would lose communication.  I just don't think a AAA battery was the best choice by Insteon for a RF device.  I live in a very rural area that hardly even has any cellular signals floating around (there are cellular signals, but weak to the point of being unusable).  The only real sources of RF around my place are my wifi access points, my zwave network, and my insteon network.  At this point, the three that will power on give me the "engine cannot be determined" error even if they are laying within inches of the PLM.  Dirty power would be a possibility, the wiring in this rural area is nearly 100 years old.  What makes me think that is also a non issue is the fact the PLM can communicate over the lines to the lamp and outdoor modules without issue.  As stated, I don't really want to swap batteries that often again, so I'd prefer to go to the aeotec sensors and simply regard the insteon door sensors as "failed".  My other zwave sensors (binary motion sensors) that use the CR123A batteries last for many years.

 

I still have many 1st Gen hidden door sensors going strong with simple battery changes so it's hard for me to agree with you. With Insteon, comm issues are comm issues regardless of how "close" another device is. The RF signal is still tied to the zero crossing so if there are issues with that you'll have issues regardless. As an "installer" I would suspect that you've come across this many times. 

Of course you'll feel the way that you do by staying on 4.7.3. UDI has stated (on the thread for 4.7.3) that there would be no additions to that firmware. 5.0 supports many other devices that 4.7 does not. Since you finally said you recently upgraded, make sure that you clear your java cache otherwise things will not work properly (which is why I said firmware AND UI. 

You are right in that numerous companies are releasing zwave devices. If they follow the zwave protocol properly then those additional devices will add to the isy without issue. If they do not then UDI (as well as other controllers) will need to create custom code to get it to work. Try using smartthings. You'll see that they do not support just as many devices as UDI natively. You would need to use 3rd party work around for support. Zwave unfortunately is a strange beast. They don't make it easy to support. 

[LaymansPC]

I didn't want to start a new thread, so I'll ask it here.

This is the device I purchased in April of 2014: 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00P7C88XM

This is what is being sold today.

https://www.amazon.com/ISY994iZW-Universal-Devices-Automation-Controller/dp/B07GNS1B7V/

I also note there is a 500 series listed.  

Curious why this wasn't mentioned?  Is there some difference between what I have an what is available currently that would explain the poor ZW+/Gen5 device support with what I have?

[lilyoyo1]

Why wasn't what mentioned? Zwave is zwave. There is no difference between units except the new is 500 series and the old is 300 series. They both work with the same devices as zwave is backwards compatible

[larryllix]

UDI has not really left anybody behind. An older ISY9994 has been upgraded t the same firmware a new would have, AFAIK.

I don't have any Zwave and will be holding off for some time. I haven't needed anything that Insteon or WiFi based hubs/devices do not offer.

[timholmesjr]

I received my unit today and went to the forum to try and figure out why the only device I have included thus far (Aeon Labs Appliance Switch) with energy consumption isn't registering energy usage.  This was the first thread I opened.  I must say I am disappointed at the curtness of the responses.  I may not know the whole story, but I am not sure this is support I am looking for.