larryllix Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 2 minutes ago, timholmesjr said: I received my unit today and went to the forum to try and figure out why the only device I have included thus far (Aeon Labs Appliance Switch) with energy consumption isn't registering energy usage. This was the first thread I opened. I must say I am disappointed at the curtness of the responses. I may not know the whole story, but I am not sure this is support I am looking for. Welcome to the UDI forums! Since this was your first post, and mine was your first response, how was it curt? If you lay out your problem there are many willing to help, spending oodles of time on your behalf. If you really want some help usually it is best to open a new thread with an appropriate title. Sorry, I know nothing about your subject matter. All the best.
timholmesjr Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 Sorry @larryllix I didn't mean to imply that you in particular were responding curtly. I was attempting to solve my issue before opening a new thread. I feel sure the answer is in the forums somewhere. I was just taken aback at the tone of some of the responses. This would be my third HA controller so I have navigated forums many times before. I am sure it was unlucky that I stumbled onto this post as my first. Who knows maybe I am being overly sensitive. Thanks for reaching out.
simplextech Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 12 minutes ago, timholmesjr said: I received my unit today and went to the forum to try and figure out why the only device I have included thus far (Aeon Labs Appliance Switch) with energy consumption isn't registering energy usage. This was the first thread I opened. I must say I am disappointed at the curtness of the responses. I may not know the whole story, but I am not sure this is support I am looking for. There are many people on this forum that spend lots of time trying to help. However this is not "support" per se but people volunteering to help. If you have a device issue it's always best to open a ticket with UDI and provide them with device information. For support from others we will ask the same thing. What device and what's the problem? Provide the Make, model of the device as "Aeon Labs Appliance Switch" is not enough information to go on. Is this the only z-wave device in your network? How far is it from the ISY? Z-Wave relies on multiple devices to form a "mesh" and if the device is too far away then it won't be able to communicate which is a very common new user issue. It's also advisable to start a new thread rather than piggy-backing off an existing one when they are not related.
lilyoyo1 Posted October 9, 2019 Author Posted October 9, 2019 40 minutes ago, timholmesjr said: I received my unit today and went to the forum to try and figure out why the only device I have included thus far (Aeon Labs Appliance Switch) with energy consumption isn't registering energy usage. This was the first thread I opened. I must say I am disappointed at the curtness of the responses. I may not know the whole story, but I am not sure this is support I am looking for. For direct support from UDI you'll need to contact them directly. This is a peer to peer forum. We aren't paid employees of UDI nor do we speak for them. We take time away from our lives and families to help one another. Curt responses does happen for various reasons (for the same reasons they happen in real life) as does exceptional support from those with more experience. In regards to your device, you must set your parameters to activate energy features when it comes to aeotec. Those can be found in the owners manual for your device. I've subsequently read the other posts after I posted. In addition to what simplextech stated, it's important to start a new thread for a new subject to make it easier for others to find the same information that you're looking for. This can keep the same questions to a minimum.
LaymansPC Posted October 10, 2019 Posted October 10, 2019 6 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said: Why wasn't what mentioned? Zwave is zwave. There is no difference between units except the new is 500 series and the old is 300 series. They both work with the same devices as zwave is backwards compatible I'm not on a new chipset looking for backwards compatibility to run older devices, I'm on an old chipset looking to run newer devices. "forward compatibility"? If zwave is zwave, why are some things marketed as just zwave, some as gen5, some as plus? You say they're the same, yet some things (mostly anything labeled plus or gen5) do not work for me when you say they should. I'd really like to get to the bottom of why certain things are not working and what can be done so they will, without the ridiculous workarounds others have gone through such as adding other brand controllers to the network. I bought what was supposed to be the best zwave controller to control zwave stuff. Zwave support was limited 5 years ago and I accepted that as something that would probably improve over time and just happily lived with a few basic motion sensors, lights, and outlets while waiting. Seeing all the new ZWave hardware and deciding to jump back into it, sadly nothing has changed as far as I can tell.
simplextech Posted October 10, 2019 Posted October 10, 2019 8 minutes ago, LaymansPC said: I'm not on a new chipset looking for backwards compatibility to run older devices, I'm on an old chipset looking to run newer devices. "forward compatibility"? If zwave is zwave, why are some things marketed as just zwave, some as gen5, some as plus? You say they're the same, yet some things (mostly anything labeled plus or gen5) do not work for me when you say they should. I'd really like to get to the bottom of why certain things are not working and what can be done so they will, without the ridiculous workarounds others have gone through such as adding other brand controllers to the network. I bought what was supposed to be the best zwave controller to control zwave stuff. Zwave support was limited 5 years ago and I accepted that as something that would probably improve over time and just happily lived with a few basic motion sensors, lights, and outlets while waiting. Seeing all the new ZWave hardware and deciding to jump back into it, sadly nothing has changed as far as I can tell. Current list of Z-Wave devices I'm compiling. This will soon be moved to the UDI Github and expanded. The list is small as I don't have a large variety of Z-Wave devices as there's really not many different "devices" but there are hundreds of vendors selling the same device. https://github.com/simplextech/udi-isy-zwave/issues There is one device that is a "Fail" and that's a Fibaro multi-sensor. The rest are good. Now on to your other points/questions about labels. The label of Gen5 is actually a label used by Aeotec/Aeon Labs. It's a branding label. Not much more. "Z-Wave Plus" is an official marking for "Certified" devices. If that stamp or printing/logo is NOT on the device then it is NOT Z-Wave Plus meaning it does not have all of the new features/functions of the 500 Series Z-Wave chipset. Your point of forward compatible. Z-Wave is Z-Wave and the "basic" functions of a Z-Wave Plus device will work with a standard Z-Wave controller or 300 series which is what it sounds like you have. Now the advantages of increased range and speed you will not get because you have a 300 series controller. You also will not be able to take advantage of new device level features. However much of that is besides the point. A primary item you are missing would be firmware related with the ISY. I don't know this for sure however I'm sure @Michel Kohanim or someone else can confirm or deny that the older firmware also does not have the newer 500 series features built into it nor does that firmware contain... lets call them "drivers" for the newer devices. Hence the newer devices may not include correctly with your controller because the firmware doesn't know how to communicate with the device properly. The newer device "might include" but what the ISY thinks the device is and what the device really is may not match up correctly. My suggestion would be to upgrade your z-wave board to the current 500 series board and upgrade your ISY firmware to the latest "beta" 5.0.15 which is very stable. Then if you find a device that does not include and work properly it becomes a valid "issue" that can be raised as a trouble ticket to UDI. An alternative you could upgrade the ISY firmware to the latest version and try with the older z-wave board. This however I'm not sure would even work as the 300 series chip is quite old and in my opinion would just be a waste of time and energy in "hoping" it will provide the results you're seeking.
LaymansPC Posted October 10, 2019 Posted October 10, 2019 I'm on the latest beta, which hasn't improved device support for me (and to the question posed earlier, yes I've cleared the java cache as per the instructions). I'm more than happy to upgrade to the newer series board if that is what it takes. It was indicated by Michel and others that wasn't the problem and I shouldn't be having any issues. I don't want to sink more money into it if it isn't going to correct the situation.
lilyoyo1 Posted October 10, 2019 Author Posted October 10, 2019 7 hours ago, LaymansPC said: I'm not on a new chipset looking for backwards compatibility to run older devices, I'm on an old chipset looking to run newer devices. "forward compatibility"? If zwave is zwave, why are some things marketed as just zwave, some as gen5, some as plus? You say they're the same, yet some things (mostly anything labeled plus or gen5) do not work for me when you say they should. I'd really like to get to the bottom of why certain things are not working and what can be done so they will, without the ridiculous workarounds others have gone through such as adding other brand controllers to the network. I bought what was supposed to be the best zwave controller to control zwave stuff. Zwave support was limited 5 years ago and I accepted that as something that would probably improve over time and just happily lived with a few basic motion sensors, lights, and outlets while waiting. Seeing all the new ZWave hardware and deciding to jump back into it, sadly nothing has changed as far as I can tell. You were asked many times for details about your system. None of which you provided. We're not here to guess about what you have when you refused to provide information. If I you're here to simply complain then you've succeeded. You keep saying devices and nothing has changed but yet only mentioned 1 product. For someone who claims to be an installer, you sure lack knowledge about the devices you use. Zwave is zwave in that all devices talk to each other regardless of chipset. This is the underlying zwave signal and code. Plus devices have additional features that older chipsets can't take advantage of. Backwards compatability means both old and new work together. This doesn't matter whether it's the controller or device I have both old and new cards and all devices work with both. The aeotec works flawlessly with both as do other zwave plus devices that I have. This is in my home and other homes that I've done installations in.
lilyoyo1 Posted October 10, 2019 Author Posted October 10, 2019 7 hours ago, simplextech said: Current list of Z-Wave devices I'm compiling. This will soon be moved to the UDI Github and expanded. The list is small as I don't have a large variety of Z-Wave devices as there's really not many different "devices" but there are hundreds of vendors selling the same device. https://github.com/simplextech/udi-isy-zwave/issues There is one device that is a "Fail" and that's a Fibaro multi-sensor. The rest are good. Now on to your other points/questions about labels. The label of Gen5 is actually a label used by Aeotec/Aeon Labs. It's a branding label. Not much more. "Z-Wave Plus" is an official marking for "Certified" devices. If that stamp or printing/logo is NOT on the device then it is NOT Z-Wave Plus meaning it does not have all of the new features/functions of the 500 Series Z-Wave chipset. Your point of forward compatible. Z-Wave is Z-Wave and the "basic" functions of a Z-Wave Plus device will work with a standard Z-Wave controller or 300 series which is what it sounds like you have. Now the advantages of increased range and speed you will not get because you have a 300 series controller. You also will not be able to take advantage of new device level features. However much of that is besides the point. A primary item you are missing would be firmware related with the ISY. I don't know this for sure however I'm sure @Michel Kohanim or someone else can confirm or deny that the older firmware also does not have the newer 500 series features built into it nor does that firmware contain... lets call them "drivers" for the newer devices. Hence the newer devices may not include correctly with your controller because the firmware doesn't know how to communicate with the device properly. The newer device "might include" but what the ISY thinks the device is and what the device really is may not match up correctly. My suggestion would be to upgrade your z-wave board to the current 500 series board and upgrade your ISY firmware to the latest "beta" 5.0.15 which is very stable. Then if you find a device that does not include and work properly it becomes a valid "issue" that can be raised as a trouble ticket to UDI. An alternative you could upgrade the ISY firmware to the latest version and try with the older z-wave board. This however I'm not sure would even work as the 300 series chip is quite old and in my opinion would just be a waste of time and energy in "hoping" it will provide the results you're seeking. The underlying zwave code works the same so new and old can mix without issue. You just don't get the feature compatibility. I have both chips and all zwave devices I've installed (myself and other) all work with both without fail. If he has older zwave devices, he still won't get most features of zwave plus as the controller "downgrades" to older firmware when it's present. He would need to replace all devices at that point.
simplextech Posted October 10, 2019 Posted October 10, 2019 2 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said: The underlying zwave code works the same so new and old can mix without issue. You just don't get the feature compatibility. I have both chips and all zwave devices I've installed (myself and other) all work with both without fail. If he has older zwave devices, he still won't get most features of zwave plus as the controller "downgrades" to older firmware when it's present. He would need to replace all devices at that point. In my long winded way that is what I was saying or trying to. The devices will work from a raw device level. New features won't be available and depending on the Z-Wave device DB loaded with the firmware will also determine what devices the ISY "knows" about to properly configure. Yet as you have stated many times now. We're not getting any real information to go on so there's not much help that can be provided.
lilyoyo1 Posted October 10, 2019 Author Posted October 10, 2019 39 minutes ago, simplextech said: In my long winded way that is what I was saying or trying to. The devices will work from a raw device level. New features won't be available and depending on the Z-Wave device DB loaded with the firmware will also determine what devices the ISY "knows" about to properly configure. Yet as you have stated many times now. We're not getting any real information to go on so there's not much help that can be provided. The 300 series can't take advantage of "features". It wouldn't have the range, firmware update capabilities etc. Since associations use doesn't change, there isn't anything that's needed for that itself. I have both cards along with customers with new and old ISY versions. I test at home prior to installation so I don't show up looking like an idiot if something doesn't work. To this day, I have never had a device work on 1 but not the other
LaymansPC Posted October 12, 2019 Posted October 12, 2019 Well, this has been a delightful experience. +1 to ya. UD would do well to kill off the forums or at least kill off public access to them. It is a drag on the overall customer experience. Not sure what I didn't answer that was relevant to my original question. When asked, I even went on to explain why I was asking what I was. I have no problems following the documented instructions, which is why I'm an old customer that is new to the forum asking about the direction and plans for UD/ISY rather than seeking technical assistance. All I wanted to know was if there were plans in the works (or upgrades that have came out in the past 5 years) that would improve the ZWave device compatibility. Also, slow down and read what others are saying. I never claimed to be an installer, I said it was something I had considered. ZWave device selection and support was poor 5 years ago, so I held off. I was hoping over time it would improve. Device selection has absolutely exploded with all sorts of awesome devices. ISY support of said devices has not (or at least with the ISY sold to me 5 years ago, even with the latest beta firmware). Frankly, I guess it is just time to bite the bullet and go with one of the other controllers the devices DO work on and deal with their "less than ideal" software. I was glad to be a UD customer while I was, but now with this experience, I'll be happy to say "no longer".
simplextech Posted October 12, 2019 Posted October 12, 2019 So I'm still confused. What device does not work that you are wanting to work?
larryllix Posted October 12, 2019 Posted October 12, 2019 1 hour ago, LaymansPC said: Well, this has been a delightful experience. +1 to ya. UD would do well to kill off the forums or at least kill off public access to them. It is a drag on the overall customer experience. Not sure what I didn't answer that was relevant to my original question. When asked, I even went on to explain why I was asking what I was. I have no problems following the documented instructions, which is why I'm an old customer that is new to the forum asking about the direction and plans for UD/ISY rather than seeking technical assistance. All I wanted to know was if there were plans in the works (or upgrades that have came out in the past 5 years) that would improve the ZWave device compatibility. Also, slow down and read what others are saying. I never claimed to be an installer, I said it was something I had considered. ZWave device selection and support was poor 5 years ago, so I held off. I was hoping over time it would improve. Device selection has absolutely exploded with all sorts of awesome devices. ISY support of said devices has not (or at least with the ISY sold to me 5 years ago, even with the latest beta firmware). Frankly, I guess it is just time to bite the bullet and go with one of the other controllers the devices DO work on and deal with their "less than ideal" software. I was glad to be a UD customer while I was, but now with this experience, I'll be happy to say "no longer". About five years ago, ISY didn't support Zwave at all. Now ISY supports almost every Zwave device out there according to the constant threads about all the new devices. As a no Zwave person, I thought many times of blocking threads that mention Zwave as it has been flooding the forum with support, that I haven't been interested in. If your ISY has not improved or expanded in five years it is because you haven't kept up. My ISY has gone to more possibilities than I will ever venture into. Having said that, there has been a lot of confusion around this thread, and some may have seemed a little rough due to frustration and possibly personal factors.. But I see some truth on both sides, so I suggest everybody just forget about it, and move on and leave the passive aggressive attacks behind. Perhaps we can all start over with more forum experience under our belts? @Michel Kohanim Can this thread be closed as it isn't accomplishing anything, is leading to animosity, and has just wasted bandwidth? IMHO.
LaymansPC Posted October 12, 2019 Posted October 12, 2019 3 hours ago, simplextech said: So I'm still confused. What device does not work that you are wanting to work? As explained, it is an Aeotec Gen5 hidden door sensor that has most recently given me issues. Full story: My ISY, this one: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00P7C88XM, that I purchased in April of 2014 (more than 5 years ago, and it does support zwave), was the newest entrant into the zwave controller market at the time AFAIK. I had already been tinkering with some other controllers and simple devices like Ecolink motion sensors and Jasco outlets. I immediately fell in love with how ISY worked. Outfitted my place with lots of motion sensors and switches and outlets and have had a very successful security and automated lighting scheme setup in my ISY. At the time, there were not a lot of ZWave devices on the market, so I filled in some of the gaps with Insteon hardware. Door sensors, leak sensors, etc.. All of the Insteon hardware has proven to be of lesser quality than any of the Zware hardware I've owned. Lamp modules put within three feet of the doors to be repeaters for the door sensors have been the best of the indoor hardware, but even those have subpar plastic which has became brittle over the years (I had one crumble in my hand when attempting to unplug it). The door sensors would need a new AAA battery about once a month. A little longer in warmer months and a little less in colder months. Finally after about four years, I don't know if I was more angry or lazy, I quit changing the batteries in them. A couple months back, I decided to put fresh batteries in everything, as some of my oldest motion detectors were starting to run low as well. Three of the four door sensors seemingly power up, but were not picked back up by the PLM/ISY. One wouldn't power on with a fresh battery. I tried removing and adding the seemingly working door sensors back into the system, each time I got the dreaded "insteon engine not determined" message. I tried all the typically recommended methods I could find, hold it near a repeater or the PLM while adding it (tried both), full reset, etc.. Unhappy with the Insteon stuff, I looked to zwave where there is more competition and seemingly better stuff. During ownership, at least a couple times a year, I've checked to ensure I was using the latest stable release, and have updated several times during my ownership. During these times, I've also searched around to see what all new zwave stuff was out that interested me. Among some of the stuff were a leak sensor, a multisensor, and a occupancy sensor (really just another motion/multi sensor) that I tried and had no success with. Seeking information, I'd read in the forums. Mostly with multisensors, folk would be told "support is coming" or "those are junk". To be fair, one of the multisensors did work after an update, a motion/temp sensor. To be honest, one out of the three or four over the years isn't a good ratio. Finally, after being sick to death of Insteon, wanting to update my original programs to do more, seeing all the great new zwave hardware out there, I decided to dig into stuff. I most recently purchased four new Aeotec Gen5 hidden door sensors. They use the CR123A batteries that've lasted more than 5 years in other similar zwave hardware. When I add them to my ISY, a single device shows up and reports ON all the time. When I tested them on other available controllers (albeit newer controllers), there are four devices added, one of which goes on and off as you activate the sensor with the magnet. Once again I dug into the forums and read up. Many recommendations on various threads to use the latest beta firmware prompted me to try it. Still, the sensors do not respond when added. I've tried fully resetting the ISY and ZWave module. Confirmed all the versions are correct for ISY, UI, Zwave, reset java cache, all of the typical recommendations found on the dozens of threads I've found most closely representing my issues. Frustrated with what to me seems to be a severe lack of zwave support, I wanted to know if anything was being done to change this or if a great product was simply being left to twist in the wind while the entire zwave market is exploding with great stuff.
simplextech Posted October 13, 2019 Posted October 13, 2019 Is this the door sensor in question? https://www.amazon.com/Recessed-Invisible-security-Battery-powered/dp/B0151Z49BO
Michel Kohanim Posted October 13, 2019 Posted October 13, 2019 @LaymansPC, You are welcome to repeat your story as much as you wish alas, at this juncture, I am just going to tune out. Again: 1. We will continue to be slow. So, if this is a show stopper, please look for another product 2. If you need support, contact our support team Good luck. With kind regards, Michel
LaymansPC Posted October 13, 2019 Posted October 13, 2019 15 hours ago, simplextech said: Is this the door sensor in question? https://www.amazon.com/Recessed-Invisible-security-Battery-powered/dp/B0151Z49BO Yep.
simplextech Posted October 13, 2019 Posted October 13, 2019 1 hour ago, LaymansPC said: Yep. Great. I'll get one on order to verify functionality.
MWareman Posted October 14, 2019 Posted October 14, 2019 I ordered one to try as well - my Insteon hidden door sensor has stopped working so that’s a good excuse to switch to a zwave device.
simplextech Posted October 14, 2019 Posted October 14, 2019 15 hours ago, LaymansPC said: I look forward to the results. Aeotec Recessed Door Sensor Gen5 Inclusion: Works fine Exclusion: Works fine Nodes Created Notify Sensor (battery info) Binary Sensor (On/Off) Notes: Parameter 121 of the device has to be set to the value 16 (enable SENSOR BINARY) To wake the door sensor press and hold the "action" button for ~6 seconds until the light starts blinking. This wakes up the sensor and you can then query the parameter and set the parameter. After setting parameter 121 to value 16 as is stated in the device manual for sensor binary mode the device works flawlessly. Thank you UD Support for also pointing this out as I was searching for this piece of information and it was not provided in the "user manual" pamphlet in the box. This has also been documented on the Z-Wave device issue tracker.
Jimbo.Automates Posted October 15, 2019 Posted October 15, 2019 Similar issues were discussed and resolved a long time ago But a different value, Set config parameter 121 to 272 in the admin console (size 4) https://forum.universal-devices.com/topic/20581-aeon-labs-recessed-door-sensor-work-around-507Sent from my Pixel 3 XL with Tapatalk
MWareman Posted October 15, 2019 Posted October 15, 2019 Is the workaround still necessary with 5.0.16? Seems it can see the new report type - but it has to be selected. Got mine yesterday but have not included it yet to my network....
simplextech Posted October 15, 2019 Posted October 15, 2019 8 minutes ago, MWareman said: Is the workaround still necessary with 5.0.16? Seems it can see the new report type - but it has to be selected. Got mine yesterday but have not included it yet to my network.... Look at my notes in previous posting. That works in 5.0.16 and information I received from UD support
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