MyServer or CQC Anyone?

[Teken]

8 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

The problem with what everyone wants and says the isy needs is cost. The question comes down to who's willing to pay what it costs? Sure, UDI can add a bunch of what everyone asks but that will come at a price. Control4 has what it has because it costs 10x as much as the isy. Even with homeseer, I you want all features you'll be looking at dropping around 600 dollars.

Judging by the number of people complaining about the cost of agave, mobilinc, and devices in general, I say not many. Until people (enough) are actually willing to pay, the discussion will never end. 

I believe if UDI follows through with launching a Kickstarter / IndiGoGo campaign if successful would directly pay for a dedicated UI developer. If the Polyisy is any indicator in terms of *Market Demand* this should easily satisfy the questions of *Is there a demand, will people pay*.

So long as people see value in a product / service these things will sell . . . 

[lilyoyo1]

2 minutes ago, Teken said:

I believe if UDI follows through with launching a Kickstarter / IndiGoGo campaign if successful would directly pay for a dedicated UI developer. If the Polyisy is any indicator in terms of *Market Demand* this should easily satisfy the questions of *Is there a demand, will people pay*.

So long as people see value in a product / service these things will sell . . . 

I'd hope so but I see too many people say one thing and then jump on the cheapest snake option regardless of the outcome. 

[Teken]

2 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

I'd hope so but I see too many people say one thing and then jump on the cheapest snake option regardless of the outcome. 

True, but we're (UDI) is at a huge turning point in terms of mass adoption for a home automation controller. Many of us have been extremely vocal in the past about X vs Y and the direction the company should take. I can safely state today many of the wants, needs, and just because are slowly coming to fruition.

I don't recall the thread but when I find it it essentially called out what we the forum members / customers wanted to see in the next ISY-XXX platform. There was a lot of heated debate and healthy banter about protocols and hardware I/O support. If my memory serves me (getting really old now) I hazard to guess 80% of those wants and needs have been included in the Polyisy!

All of those involved in that specific thread wanted to see BLE, WiFi, Ethernet, Multi HA, Cloud Integration, 3rd party Weather, faster processor, more memory, more storage.

The Polyisy has met this demand while incorporating Node Servers . . .

The 5.XX frame work is in my mind a method for third parties to create modules that integrate with their / others wares. 

Back On Point: I truly believe once a clean path to migrate the ISY Series Controller to the Polyisy the phrase value is truly understated! 

[simplextech]

20 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

The problem with what everyone wants and says the isy needs is cost. The question comes down to who's willing to pay what it costs? Sure, UDI can add a bunch of what everyone asks but that will come at a price. Control4 has what it has because it costs 10x as much as the isy. Even with homeseer, I you want all features you'll be looking at dropping around 600 dollars.

Judging by the number of people complaining about the cost of agave, mobilinc, and devices in general, I say not many. Until people (enough) are actually willing to pay, the discussion will never end. 

You are so right that I can't even stop laughing..... everyone wants this and wants that and then when faced with the options of 1. Develop it yourself or 2. Pay for it they all opt for option 3. of complain about the cost and continue asking for free.

HomeSeer only provides half of what a full integrated system does because NONE of the plugins are integrated so they are their own little ecosystem of plugins.  The only thing that's consistent is the event engine can react to changes from all of the plugin devices.  It's well known so people buy it but you can actually get CQC for roughly the same price or less because the HomeSeer is just the HS cost that doesn't include any plugins that you will need so that adds even more to the TCO. 

I'm not advocating for UDI to "add" anything to the ISY.  The system does what it's designed for.  It's not a full integrated home automation system like Control4 or CQC or Crestron it's a Insteon Device controller with Z-Wave too now and a very capable logic engine.  I'm looking at options out there for a layer on top to integrate with all the rest of my stuff and bring it all into a nice UI that I can design and make it look the way I want and without having to learn web design.   

 

[Teken]

2 minutes ago, simplextech said:

You are so right that I can't even stop laughing..... everyone wants this and wants that and then when faced with the options of 1. Develop it yourself or 2. Pay for it they all opt for option 3. of complain about the cost and continue asking for free.

HomeSeer only provides half of what a full integrated system does because NONE of the plugins are integrated so they are their own little ecosystem of plugins.  The only thing that's consistent is the event engine can react to changes from all of the plugin devices.  It's well known so people buy it but you can actually get CQC for roughly the same price or less because the HomeSeer is just the HS cost that doesn't include any plugins that you will need so that adds even more to the TCO. 

I'm not advocating for UDI to "add" anything to the ISY.  The system does what it's designed for.  It's not a full integrated home automation system like Control4 or CQC or Crestron it's a Insteon Device controller with Z-Wave too now and a very capable logic engine.  I'm looking at options out there for a layer on top to integrate with all the rest of my stuff and bring it all into a nice UI that I can design and make it look the way I want and without having to learn web design.   

 

You just described *Human Nature* . . . 

There is always going to be a war between *Want vs Need* / *Pay vs Free* / *Do it once vs Do it again*.  

[simplextech]

1 minute ago, Teken said:

You just described *Human Nature* . . . 

There is always going to be a war between *Want vs Need* / *Pay vs Free* / *Do it once vs Do it again*.  

Yup... however it seems that especially within the home automation segment there's a war of realities.  Today's mass consumers have some entitled expectation that everything should be free and if they want something someone else should do the work for it.  We can all thank all of the "Free" cloud services that everyone loves... That and the cheap hubs that integrate with those free services that are somehow now the pinnacle of home automation because someone can use their phone to turn on a light bulb... BAH!!!! yes I'm cranky today

 

[Teken]

3 minutes ago, simplextech said:

Yup... however it seems that especially within the home automation segment there's a war of realities.  Today's mass consumers have some entitled expectation that everything should be free and if they want something someone else should do the work for it.  We can all thank all of the "Free" cloud services that everyone loves... That and the cheap hubs that integrate with those free services that are somehow now the pinnacle of home automation because someone can use their phone to turn on a light bulb... BAH!!!! yes I'm cranky today

 

Agreed ~ While many here know I hold a very dim view on these hubs that market themselves as truly awesome. I do have to concede that these hubs have pushed existing market leaders to do better and also revisit their pricing structure. 

Competition / Choices in any market has always been to the benefit of the general public ~ In moderation.

We see this issue with competing Home Automation protocols from Insteon, Z-Wave, ZigBee, WiFi, BLE, Other. Cloud Power in my mind has a place & purpose when implemented correctly with a very narrow scope. Some of that cloud power comes into play to enhance legacy hardware that simply did not offer X vs Y capabilities. 

Think conditional logic -> IFTTT  / Fail Over & Backup / Processing Power / Analytics . . . 

  

[bpwwer]

15 minutes ago, simplextech said:

I'm not advocating for UDI to "add" anything to the ISY.  The system does what it's designed for.  It's not a full integrated home automation system like Control4 or CQC or Crestron it's a Insteon Device controller with Z-Wave too now and a very capable logic engine.  I'm looking at options out there for a layer on top to integrate with all the rest of my stuff and bring it all into a nice UI that I can design and make it look the way I want and without having to learn web design.   

I agree that historically, the ISY is just a Insteon/Zwave device controller with it's own logic engine.   But with the addition of nodes servers and Polisy, it is starting to grow and evolve beyond that.   And I also agree that to get a nice UI today, you have to layer on something else like CQC.  But even doing that today, there's going to be a lot of duplicate functionality between the two systems. I'd rather focus resources on expanding the ISY's functionality than improving the ability to link the two systems together (and I say this while promoting a HomeSeer plug-in to do just that).

I think the direction the ISY is going will eventually lead to it being able to replace full fledged HA systems.  This assumes of course, that the ROI is there and UDI can make a profit doing so. 

If someone is willing to pay for both an ISY and HomeSeer or CQC then they'd likely be willing to pay more for an ISY that can do everything HomeSeer or CQC can do.  The only question is are there enough of those people to support the effort.

[lilyoyo1]

14 minutes ago, bpwwer said:

I agree that historically, the ISY is just a Insteon/Zwave device controller with it's own logic engine.   But with the addition of nodes servers and Polisy, it is starting to grow and evolve beyond that.   And I also agree that to get a nice UI today, you have to layer on something else like CQC.  But even doing that today, there's going to be a lot of duplicate functionality between the two systems. I'd rather focus resources on expanding the ISY's functionality than improving the ability to link the two systems together (and I say this while promoting a HomeSeer plug-in to do just that).

I think the direction the ISY is going will eventually lead to it being able to replace full fledged HA systems.  This assumes of course, that the ROI is there and UDI can make a profit doing so. 

If someone is willing to pay for both an ISY and HomeSeer or CQC then they'd likely be willing to pay more for an ISY that can do everything HomeSeer or CQC can do.  The only question is are there enough of those people to support the effort.

Im quite sure there are those on here who would be willing to pay more to get what they want. If you think about it though, how many here are doing what you do? Most will look at free open source options to avoid paying for something. Id love to be wrong about this but when I look at what people say on here about things, I dont have much optimism.

I still dont see the ISY being able to replace a full fledged HA system. Not in the next few generations at least. I feel this way because of the software approach to things. Sure you can control certain devices via IP but thats not nearly as good as something controlled via hardware. There's a reason why C4, Crestron, RTI, etc. focuses on hardware integration vs software. Yes, there are drivers for certain things but the focus is on physical connections. UDI can duplicate the experience to a certain degree but the reliability simply wont be the same

[simplextech]

28 minutes ago, bpwwer said:

I agree that historically, the ISY is just a Insteon/Zwave device controller with it's own logic engine.   But with the addition of nodes servers and Polisy, it is starting to grow and evolve beyond that. 

It is growing and evolving.  One problem and this is just reality.  The core of the system is not designed beyond static device control.  To change this requires core changes which are not easy and will take a very LOOONG time probably 10 years and none of that is cheap.  Alternative is not to build but to buy or partner and integrate a full package.

[simplextech]

3 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Im quite sure there are those on here who would be willing to pay more to get what they want. If you think about it though, how many here are doing what you do? Most will look at free open source options to avoid paying for something. Id love to be wrong about this but when I look at what people say on here about things, I dont have much optimism.

There's likely a small handful of people... maybe.... <short on optimism>

 

[Teken]

11 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Im quite sure there are those on here who would be willing to pay more to get what they want. If you think about it though, how many here are doing what you do? Most will look at free open source options to avoid paying for something. Id love to be wrong about this but when I look at what people say on here about things, I dont have much optimism.

I still dont see the ISY being able to replace a full fledged HA system. Not in the next few generations at least. I feel this way because of the software approach to things. Sure you can control certain devices via IP but thats not nearly as good as something controlled via hardware. There's a reason why C4, Crestron, RTI, etc. focuses on hardware integration vs software. Yes, there are drivers for certain things but the focus is on physical connections. UDI can duplicate the experience to a certain degree but the reliability simply wont be the same

I believe the approach should be to offer a black box which allows various I/O's to be integrated with. A few years ago the company released a I/O relay which I have no clue if it sells or has market need?!? In a small way it was encouraging to see UDI thinking past just the controller and being able to offer more direct hardware support. With the advent of the latest Polyisy it offers pretty much all of the I/O's many of us have asked for.

I only wish they would have considered replaceable RAM, Video. 

As others have noted here and in other threads it's not just about a slick UI vs Core Features. It's about finding a balance of each because there are more *Hub* type people than there are *Geeks* in the world.

One only needs to see the market share from the likes of Smartthings which I can safely state has the highest adoption and deployed use. People like easy Plug & Play along with an intuitive interface regardless if its just a glorified remote control. When I look at other controllers from Vera, HomeSeer, and see how many developers are supporting said product. You just have to stop and ask what is the secret sauce in that success?

People want simple, point and shoot, ease of integration, and third party support.

It's been a very long road for many of us who came from the ISY-26 / ISY-99 to ISY-994. When I look back at where the company has been and what they have achieved since then it has been a very slow and steady march to adopt, grow, and integrate. To me it seemed one day Michel woke up and said you know what I should sit down and invest their time and resources to connect to the cloud.

Just this single decision has in my mind helped grow and transition other customers.

Voice control from the likes of Amazon Echo / Google Home, integration with IFTTT, 5.XX Frame work to allow *things* to integrate with the ISY / Poly. 

[larryllix]

54 minutes ago, Teken said:

I believe the approach should be to offer a black box which allows various I/O's to be integrated with. A few years ago the company released a I/O relay which I have no clue if it sells or has market need?!? In a small way it was encouraging to see UDI thinking past just the controller and being able to offer more direct hardware support. With the advent of the latest Polyisy it offers pretty much all of the I/O's many of us have asked for.

I only wish they would have considered replaceable RAM, Video. 

As others have noted here and in other threads it's not just about a slick UI vs Core Features. It's about finding a balance of each because there are more *Hub* type people than there are *Geeks* in the world.

One only needs to see the market share from the likes of Smartthings which I can safely state has the highest adoption and deployed use. People like easy Plug & Play along with an intuitive interface regardless if its just a glorified remote control. When I look at other controllers from Vera, HomeSeer, and see how many developers are supporting said product. You just have to stop and ask what is the secret sauce in that success?

People want simple, point and shoot, ease of integration, and third party support.

It's been a very long road for many of us who came from the ISY-26 / ISY-99 to ISY-994. When I look back at where the company has been and what they have achieved since then it has been a very slow and steady march to adopt, grow, and integrate. To me it seemed one day Michel woke up and said you know what I should sit down and invest their time and resources to connect to the cloud.

Just this single decision has in my mind helped grow and transition other customers.

Voice control from the likes of Amazon Echo / Google Home, integration with IFTTT, 5.XX Frame work to allow *things* to integrate with the ISY / Poly. 

Seems like what goes around, comes around.... full circle for ISY and HA. When we get fancy remote control so easy to effect our HA wants, we need 90% less HA...

….except when we are not home!  
Strange HA world, that.

[lilyoyo1]

31 minutes ago, Teken said:

I believe the approach should be to offer a black box which allows various I/O's to be integrated with. A few years ago the company released a I/O relay which I have no clue if it sells or has market need?!? In a small way it was encouraging to see UDI thinking past just the controller and being able to offer more direct hardware support. With the advent of the latest Polyisy it offers pretty much all of the I/O's many of us have asked for.

I only wish they would have considered replaceable RAM, Video. 

As others have noted here and in other threads it's not just about a slick UI vs Core Features. It's about finding a balance of each because there are more *Hub* type people than there are *Geeks* in the world.

One only needs to see the market share from the likes of Smartthings which I can safely state has the highest adoption and deployed use. People like easy Plug & Play along with an intuitive interface regardless if its just a glorified remote control. When I look at other controllers from Vera, HomeSeer, and see how many developers are supporting said product. You just have to stop and ask what is the secret sauce in that success?

People want simple, point and shoot, ease of integration, and third party support.

It's been a very long road for many of us who came from the ISY-26 / ISY-99 to ISY-994. When I look back at where the company has been and what they have achieved since then it has been a very slow and steady march to adopt, grow, and integrate. To me it seemed one day Michel woke up and said you know what I should sit down and invest their time and resources to connect to the cloud.

Just this single decision has in my mind helped grow and transition other customers.

Voice control from the likes of Amazon Echo / Google Home, integration with IFTTT, 5.XX Frame work to allow *things* to integrate with the ISY / Poly. 

Comparing Smartthings to ISY is comparing apples to steak. Smartthings is where they are because of the Samsung name.

Yes it's a simple system but that also goes against everything most isy users want. You can run other stuff on smartthings but then you are entering the world of geeks which is where most users stay away from. 

If UDI simply wanted market share, they would say screw us, create an app and have basic timers (insteon hub+). They focus on what they do because they share the same idea that we all share on here. Let's be real, we all chose ISY for a reason over all of those controllers. 

UDI expanded because the automation space expanded. That's what any good company would do. While I'm sure that expansion helped with some customers, I think it's their reputation that switches many over from something else. 

Let's be real, Vera doesn't deserve to be mentioned. How are they still around????!!!! Pull the curtains open on homeseer and you start to see the chinks in their armor. Great system but  unreliable hardware. 

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi All,

Excellent discussion! I have an idea!

Background: a) we got pretty good response for Polisy even without Kickstarter/Indigogo and b) we already have talented UI/app developers on the forum. With this background out of the way, my idea is that we make an RFP (our wish list for the UI) and distribute to those interested and whom we already know and trust (hiring a developer for something so specific is not very efficient).

Once we get proposals, we pick one/two or all, and then do what we did for Polisy: email directly from UD to existing registered customers who have signed up for Product News. In short, UD's role would be to act as the Kickstarter but without charging for the service + providing up to 25% of the required funding itself. We'll collectively decide who gets what based on the level of investment. The end result will be UI/apps that are sold through UD. The proceeds from the sales will be used for enhancements/maintenance.

With kind regards,
Michel

[Teken]

1 hour ago, Michel Kohanim said:

Hi All,

Excellent discussion! I have an idea!

Background: a) we got pretty good response for Polisy even without Kickstarter/Indigogo and b) we already have talented UI/app developers on the forum. With this background out of the way, my idea is that we make an RFP (our wish list for the UI) and distribute to those interested and whom we already know and trust (hiring a developer for something so specific is not very efficient).

Once we get proposals, we pick one/two or all, and then do what we did for Polisy: email directly from UD to existing registered customers who have signed up for Product News. In short, UD's role would be to act as the Kickstarter but without charging for the service + providing up to 25% of the required funding itself. We'll collectively decide who gets what based on the level of investment. The end result will be UI/apps that are sold through UD. The proceeds from the sales will be used for enhancements/maintenance.

With kind regards,
Michel

Just take my money already!! ??☝️

[simplextech]

1 hour ago, Michel Kohanim said:

Hi All,

Excellent discussion! I have an idea!

Background: a) we got pretty good response for Polisy even without Kickstarter/Indigogo and b) we already have talented UI/app developers on the forum. With this background out of the way, my idea is that we make an RFP (our wish list for the UI) and distribute to those interested and whom we already know and trust (hiring a developer for something so specific is not very efficient).

Once we get proposals, we pick one/two or all, and then do what we did for Polisy: email directly from UD to existing registered customers who have signed up for Product News. In short, UD's role would be to act as the Kickstarter but without charging for the service + providing up to 25% of the required funding itself. We'll collectively decide who gets what based on the level of investment. The end result will be UI/apps that are sold through UD. The proceeds from the sales will be used for enhancements/maintenance.

With kind regards,
Michel

Hmm.... I'll refrain from comment and go about my business.

[Jimbo.Automates]

Hi All,
Excellent discussion! I have an idea!
Background: a) we got pretty good response for Polisy even without Kickstarter/Indigogo and we already have talented UI/app developers on the forum. With this background out of the way, my idea is that we make an RFP (our wish list for the UI) and distribute to those interested and whom we already know and trust (hiring a developer for something so specific is not very efficient).
Once we get proposals, we pick one/two or all, and then do what we did for Polisy: email directly from UD to existing registered customers who have signed up for Product News. In short, UD's role would be to act as the Kickstarter but without charging for the service + providing up to 25% of the required funding itself. We'll collectively decide who gets what based on the level of investment. The end result will be UI/apps that are sold through UD. The proceeds from the sales will be used for enhancements/maintenance.
With kind regards,
Michel

Sounds good to me

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

[simplextech]

Hmm... I will comment... sounds a lot like what happened with HomeSeer.... yeah make a UI or make it prettier... Lipstick on a pig because the core is the same so the functionality is still limited to numerical inputs.  Say you do change the core.... that will only take what another 5 maybe 10 years?  So today people are turning to Home Assistant and building an ecosystem around the ISY so the ISY controls the Insteon devices but HASS has the higher end levels of other devices, apps, integrations..... then they move their z-wave because there multisensors work so all that's left in the ISY is Insteon and so they decide maybe they want z-wave or maybe they move to Lutron Caseta or maybe they move to Radio RA2... or Vantage or something else maybe even ZigBee.... so all of this type of new apps and integrations will be suddenly available because of a UI?

The UI is the garnish for the steak.

[paulbates]

12 minutes ago, simplextech said:

Hmm... I will comment... sounds a lot like what happened with HomeSeer.... yeah make a UI or make it prettier... Lipstick on a pig because the core is the same so the functionality is still limited to numerical inputs.  Say you do change the core.... that will only take what another 5 maybe 10 years?  So today people are turning to Home Assistant and building an ecosystem around the ISY so the ISY controls the Insteon devices but HASS has the higher end levels of other devices, apps, integrations..... then they move their z-wave because there multisensors work so all that's left in the ISY is Insteon and so they decide maybe they want z-wave or maybe they move to Lutron Caseta or maybe they move to Radio RA2... or Vantage or something else maybe even ZigBee.... so all of this type of new apps and integrations will be suddenly available because of a UI?

The UI is the garnish for the steak.

Thank you

[Jimbo.Automates]

I love nothing more than a great steak, but really nice garnish makes for an overall enjoyable meal. A modern UI would make the experience much better and allow it to be run anywhere, not just where Java is available. Providing a better method for Apps like Agave to get information on devices as requested by James would be a good start.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

[Michel Kohanim]

@simplextech, and what does CQC bring that what I suggested doesn't?

With kind regards,

Michel

[Michel Kohanim]

@Jimbo,

Sorry but we cannot go back to the dark ages of device types for James.

Again, I don't mind at all if a group of folks decide to design and manage a compliance layer for James or UI or others. But, UD cannot maintain it simply because it will take ages to get any agreements and even those are volatile.

With kind regards,

Michel

[Jimbo.Automates]

@Jimbo,
Sorry but we cannot go back to the dark ages of device types for James.
Again, I don't mind at all if a group of folks decide to design and manage a compliance layer for James or UI or others. But, UD cannot maintain it simply because it will take ages to get any agreements and even those are volatile.
With kind regards,
Michel

Sorry, @Michel Kohanim I wasn't suggesting device types, he had requested a better way to grab profile data as a start a long time ago.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

[Michel Kohanim]

@Jimbo, thank you and apologies. We have had offline conversations with James and didn't come to an agreement. I will dig up the thread and whether or not there are easy things we can do.

With kind regards,

Michel