New device prohibits PLM communication

[bsacco64]

Hey all, I recently installed an ISY in my house. Everything works great and I am really happy with it. However, today I was greeted with a lovely " Cannot communicate with <Insteon Device>, check connections" error in the admin console. I narrowed the problem down to a charger I use to charge my reclining couches. Is there workaround to this problem? This concerns me, because say I get a new TV or something and this also wipes PLM communication. Any Ideas would be greatly appreciated.

[mwester]

Welcome to the wonderful world of powerline communications!  Yep, it's often the little things that cause the most noise and junk on the powerline, while a large bulky but quality device is fine...  After a similar experience that finally resulted in discovering that the culprit was an el-cheapo eBay chinese knock-off phone charger, I now have a general rule that prohibits any "junk" electronics from being plugged into anything in my house.

Alas, that's not enough -- even well-made devices can have noisy power-supplies.  So my walls are littered (quite literally) with Insteon Filterlincs, into which all manner of devices are plugged.  All my electronics, from the top-end stuff (e.g. Sonos) to the low-end junk (e.g the Walmart-special Philips TV in the basement), are plugged into Filterlincs.  I've had to resort to wired-in high-current filters for some other things (septic lift pump).

So, your experience is not unique - start with a Filterlinc or perhaps even a box of ten or twelve of them... that should help a lot.

[gviliunas]

"Ten or Twelve?" @mwester remind me not to buy el-cheapo stuff from e-bay.....

Yes, over the years I too have purchased a few bad actors. The biggest culprits for me have been power strips with filter capacitors as part of the surge suppression network. I stay away from anything "Surge Suppressor" unless I know the device only uses MOVs (or other non-capacitor device). These are huge signal-sucks that can seriously reduce the power-line Insteon signal strength.

 

[larryllix]

I just got a new gadget and as soon as I plugged the wall wart in, my bedroom lamp stop responding. Luckily it was noticed right away. I moved it further away and things improved but until it was unplugged, things were still flakey.

Other than that both my GDOs make noise, especially the new one with the battery backup. It drove my whole system down to about 50% response immediately. Filterlincs helped but it is still not the same.

[Brian H]

I too use some FilterLincs on problem electronic devices. That absorb Insteon power line signals or generate noise on to the power lines. I know my Vizio  TV's  absorb power line signals and my portable AC also does.

The X10 XPPF may work also but I would not recommend them.  They are only 5 amps and that rating is generous. I have run them close to their 5 amp rating and the coils in the filter get very warm and even smell.

[jec6613]

Thinking of this, does anyone have anything that would work for 20A?  I have some fairly hefty devices I'd like to filter out (or filter out an entire rack of AV equipment).

[Teken]

2 hours ago, jec6613 said:

Thinking of this, does anyone have anything that would work for 20A?  I have some fairly hefty devices I'd like to filter out (or filter out an entire rack of AV equipment).

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/X10-Pro-20A-Wired-In-Filter-120-220V-Model-XPF/123341280017?_trkparms=aid%3D555018%26algo%3DPL.SIM%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D20160908110712%26meid%3D011ad6cbdf6448f396a6a096c563492d%26pid%3D100677%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D30%26mehot%3Dnone%26sd%3D161091952077%26itm%3D123341280017%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D2386202&_trksid=p2386202.c100677.m4598

[mwester]

I have a couple of the X10 Pro XPF units -- they need really big boxes to wire them directly in-line, but they do a good job with Insteon signals (even though they are spec'd for X10, which is close but not quite the same frequency as Insteon).

[Brian H]

Oh yes. The 20 Amp XPF is big. Instruction sheet says a 3 gang box would hold it.

JV Digital Engineering. Has a great set of troubleshooting tutorials. Are originally for X10 but as mentioned. The Insteon Power Line commands are close to the X10 commands. So the tutorials may still give you some information.   http://jvde.us/x10_troubleshooting.htm   If you can use a plug in 15 Amp filter. Their 15 Amp XTB-15 is still available.

[ELA]

Filterlincs are your friend

I have a half dozen or so filters placed precisely where they are needed.   Some people talk about noisy devices without actually having a clue whether it is really noise or signal sucker issue.

I got frustrated with Insteon signal level issues years back and developed a tool that allows me to measure whether devices are putting out noise or are just a signal sucker.

In my experience most often it is a signal sucker.  There are some noisy devices, just much less so that signal suckers.   Manufacturers add across the line capacitors to reduce the noise they put out.  That then makes them an insteon signal sucker.   As manufactures get better at reducing the noise they emit they increase how much they suck to Insteon.

Below is a list I created years ago that quantifies how bad various items attenuate(Suck) the Insteon signal.   It is qualified by how bad a device is;  in relation to the loading effect that any one actual Insteon device presents to the power line ( at the Insteon freq.).   Each Insteon device itself is a signal sucker.   Luckily they also repeat (transmit) insteon signals that offsets that sucking effect.

From the list you see that a Surge suppressor, that includes an EMI filter ( usually a 0.01 to 0.1uf cap.) presents about 1 insteon load.   There are many devices much worse.

Rather than put an XPF on my garage door I  added a dual coil, differential mode inductor,  wired in series in a small electrical box. That reduced the loading level much better than an XPF would.

Most often with signal suckers an inductor is all that is really needed.   Filterlincs are much easier though.

[larryllix]

Yes, and many filters do not say whether the pass signals or block them either. FilterLincs do both.

[Brian H]

I have on rare occasions.  Seen a  manufacturer actually put a coil in the line input before the capacitor that is across the line to neutral.

My LED TV has three capacitors . As accurate as I can measure with out physically opening it up. A .1uF AC rated capacitors on the power input. Across the line to neutral and one from line to ground pin and one from neutral to the ground pin.

[Teken]

10 hours ago, ELA said:

Filterlincs are your friend

I have a half dozen or so filters placed precisely where they are needed.   Some people talk about noisy devices without actually having a clue whether it is really noise or signal sucker issue.

I got frustrated with Insteon signal level issues years back and developed a tool that allows me to measure whether devices are putting out noise or are just a signal sucker.

In my experience most often it is a signal sucker.  There are some noisy devices, just much less so that signal suckers.   Manufacturers add across the line capacitors to reduce the noise they put out.  That then makes them an insteon signal sucker.   As manufactures get better at reducing the noise they emit they increase how much they suck to Insteon.

Below is a list I created years ago that quantifies how bad various items attenuate(Suck) the Insteon signal.   It is qualified by how bad a device is;  in relation to the loading effect that any one actual Insteon device presents to the power line ( at the Insteon freq.).   Each Insteon device itself is a signal sucker.   Luckily they also repeat (transmit) insteon signals that offsets that sucking effect.

From the list you see that a Surge suppressor, that includes an EMI filter ( usually a 0.01 to 0.1uf cap.) presents about 1 insteon load.   There are many devices much worse.

Rather than put an XPF on my garage door I  added a dual coil, differential mode inductor,  wired in series in a small electrical box. That reduced the loading level much better than an XPF would.

Most often with signal suckers an inductor is all that is really needed.   Filterlincs are much easier though.

ELA,

I've said this in the past and will do so again today.

Please consider making the tool commercially or offering a schematic with parts listing so others can benefit from such a great diagnostic tool! I would love to have one of these portable devices in my arsenal to help identify signal suckers / noise makers while on site and have the ability to quantify them with real numbers.

Always happy to see you on the forums . . .

[ELA]

Hello Teken,

  Nice to hear  from you also.

Back in 2013 I did seriously consider building and selling ELAMontors. The initial build, cash investment,  could not be justified by the niche market available.

I also considered releasing all the hardware design details and selling only the microcontroller ( with code preloaded).   I feared many people would struggle with the fine pitch surface mount soldering required.   If they assembled and it did not work they would possibly not be very happy with me.  The design requires hand winding a small torroid with 100 turns of very fine wire.  That is quite challenging. I found a company that would wind them by machine but again an investment.

I know that some would be able to get it done successfully but I am no longer interested in spending the time required to provide support to those who would struggle.

I have too much time invested in the design to simply give it away.  I would love to provide the design free to a limited audience ( to those on this forum).  But of course once the design is out there on the internet -anyone could decide to capitalize on it.

      I learned a lot from the experience and am always willing to share things it taught me , such as quantifying signal suckers.

I had shared another simpler method to test for signal suckers years back but I can no longer find my old posts.   That involved using a DVM to measure how quickly a charge applied to a devices line terminals ( when unconnected from the power line) decayed.   Devices without an across the line cap allowed the charge to decay immediately, whereas devices with a cap. inside;  you could see a  delay in the discharge when  the voltage was removed.  I cannot remember clearly but I think I used a 9V battery as the source. ( caution: measure DC input resistance before applying a battery.)    If I recall that was useful with Surge Suppressor strips to determine if they had a cap inside.   If you have a meter that measures caps. that is a lot easier tho.

     I have a few Surge Suppressor strips that I have opened and cut out the cap.  I like having the MOVs just not the cap.  Not recommended for everyone since many of these are poorly built and taking them apart and putting back together  might create other issues.