Under-Cabinent Xenons Causing Interference

[AdamHLG]

hey all,

 

New kitchen. Many new Insteon switches and KPLs. All programming going great for scenes. However, I found that when my 6 or 7 under-cabinent xenon lights are dimmed anywhere from 20% to 70% (they are controlled by 3 switchlinc dimmer switches), I have severe communications issues. Lights do not respond to the KPL enacted scenes, etc (or from the ISY interface). Spotty results, etc. When I remove the xenons from the scenes (or make sure they are off), the problems go away. The xenon undercabinet lights, especially when dimmed, are causing Insteon interference.

 

Anyone else ever hear of this or have any ideas?

 

Adam

[AdamHLG]

Well, i should have searched first. Looks like someone else had the same problem:

 

http://forum.universal-devices.com/view ... ight=xenon

 

Anyone have any ideas on how to fix this issue?

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi Adam,

 

The best thing to do would be to put your lights on a FilterLinc. This way, the noise is filtered by the FilterLinc and thus should have minimal impact on your INSTEON devices.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[AdamHLG]

Ya, but they are hard wired in!!!

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi Adam,

 

That would be a problem! Unfortunately I do not know of any other solution to filter out the noise. I do apologize.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

Ya, but they are hard wired in!!!

[Brian H]

There are some wired in X10 types that may work as the Insteon signal is 131.65 KHz and the X10 is 120 KHz. The FilterLinc was originally for X10.

 

Though I would see if someone here has actually done this or knows of a filter that worked for them.

[MikeB]

I don't have any first-hand experience, but have heard people have good results with this unit from Leviton:

 

http://www.smarthome.com/4835/Leviton-N ... 287/p.aspx

[AdamHLG]

Well, this is a big deal to me.

 

I am replacing all my x-10 with Insteon. I now have 100+ switches / outlets / KPLs / IO Links on my way to top out at about 130. For the most part this is going smoothly. There are some communications issues but so far they are few. I still need to put FilterLincs on my UPSs to remove some noise etc. But I digress.

 

The xenons are a big problem. I spoke with my electrician this morning that wired the kitchen and installed the under-cabinet xenons (he is also replacing all the x-10 switches, etc). He confirmed the xenons are low voltage with mini transformers. These ARE the problem. They have been isolated and they are definitely the problem - especially when they are dimmed.

 

These xenons are controlled by 3 switchlinks - two in double gang boxes and one in a single gang box. We are going to try this solution:

 

http://www.smarthome.com/4840/Leviton-I ... 289/p.aspx

 

These are small enough to fit in the gang box behind each switch so the install will be invisible. We gained about 1/2 to 3/4 inch clearance (beyond what is already there) because all the switches are on a tiled backsplash, and due to the drywall + tile, each switch was "pushed out" from the back of the gang box. This was luck. Now, he tells me this will not be a code issue and that it will be fine. He says they "should fit". What will require the ultimate luck is whether they work! I am concerned about the 120 KHz v. 131.65 KHz issue. But, I need to make a basic assumption that there is a 'range' of signal pass through of +/- 20 KHz. If I am right, it should work for Insteon as well as X-10. If not, I guess I will need a plan B.

 

Adam

[AdamHLG]

posted in smarthome forum and duplicated here for those that want to know the outcome. I ended up using the 6287 and not 6289 for the experiment. Maybe I will try with the 6289.

 

 

So I have posted a few threads on the Leviton 6287 noise block. And there is something you should know.

 

The installation instructions read as follows: "CAUTION: DO NOT INSTALL THIS DEVICE INSIDE ANY COMPARTMENT WITH EXISTING SWITCHING DEVICES"

 

There is another thread on this Board where this is talked about, located here: http://www.smarthome.com/forum/topic.as ... 87,caution Look to the bottom of that thread, where the poster makes a very logical assumption of why the caution is listed in the instructions. I concurred, so i installed these devices inside the existing boxes behind their switch despite the caution. After all, it said "caution" and not 'DANGER", right? .

 

I have three dual gane boxes involved here in the kitchen - each for a different area of the kitchen. In each dual gang box, there is a switchlink for the incabinet lights (normal 120v non-xenon pucks) and the undercabinet lights (xenons). Its the xenons that have the problem. So, I had enough room at the back of each dual gang box, and i ignored the caution and did the installs between the switchlinks and the xenon lights. I did this for each dual gang box and buttened it all up. It all worked.

 

So, yesterday my wife comes home and hits the KPL "A" scene and all the lights fade on, including the incabinets and undercabinets. She had these on and I came back in about an hour. I asked her why she turned off the incabinet lights because one was on and two were off, and naturally, as expected, she said she did not touch anything. Hmmm. I walk to the switches on both incabinet lights and the LEDs show the on position. Ut o. So, I go to turn each switch on and off and its frozen in the on position. I then go back to the switch that WAS working properly, i.e., the third incab light that was on as expected, and that switch was frozen ALSO!. Keep in mind, the 6287 was not involved with these switches for the incabinet lights. The 6287 helps with the undercabinet lights, and those switches were fine. However, it was the other switch in the same gang box with the 6287 that was frozen.

 

So, i 'airgapped' the switches and they worked again. For about 10 min. Then they froze again. Even better, one of the switches was ON, with the LEDs ON, and all by itself suddenly the incabinet lights shut off right in front of me. That switch was frozen now. I air gapped all of them, got them to work, and pulled the breaker to kill it all so i can remove all three 6287's from the double gang boxes.

 

So here is the moral of the story. DO NOT install the 6287 into any box with other wiring devices - just like the caution warns. This is a new Insteon install in my house. I have 103 devices. Of those, probably 95 are switchlincs. None of my switchlinks exhibit lockups except the three located in the same gangbox where a 6287 is wired to the adjacent switch. There must be an interference, or heat, or signal , or something that is really causing a big problem. I can only imagine this is why the caution exists. I will remove all the 6287's tonight and i am 99% sure the problem goes away.

 

So now the noise is back and i am back to square one. But the plus side is no more '6287' buzz (see my other thread).

 

So, there's my story for future readers on this issue.

 

Adam

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi Adam,

 

Thanks so very much for the update as I am sure others will find it quite useful. This is quite disheartening though. It seems that you might have to have some rewiring done and attach those devices to a FilterLinc which, I am sure, is going to be a nightmare. I wished I could do something more ...

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[ergodic]

I also have undercab (LV halogens) with electronic transformers in my kitchen. Plugging those directly without filtering took down one entire leg of the house.

 

I had no luck with any of the X10-designated inline filters. The X10 pro was a total no-go (don't waste your money) and the Levitons helped some but didn't fully resolve the interferences in all cases, and like you I had a switch lock-up when testing one(probably they are simpler bandpass designs). The FilterLincs are the only thing I've found that (mostly) fix Insteon interference - even those aren't perfect; I've stacked two in my garage to get a clean line out there.

 

I finally just built a bizarre little duplex box with a pigtail plug coming out of it to plug into a FilterLinc that's plugged into the outlet. Line V. goes to the outlet, out through the Filterlinc, around through the pigtail plug back into the box, down the conduits and to the ballasts. No kidding. I did the same thing for the garage lights which are electronic fluorescents.

 

This all assumes you have the needed clearances for the Filterlinc and plug where your connection box is located. If not you may need to do some drywall/drilling. You could also just remove the passive guts of the Filterlinc and mount it in some sort of in-line enclosure with leads, though you'd lose the UL rating obviously.

 

My electrician stared and sniffed around the box for a half-hour but couldn't really find anything code-violable about it -- though maybe there should be.

 

I'll say it again for the record: SH needs a MUCH better set of filtering solutions for Insteon.

[Brian H]

Yes a hard wired in filter for Insteon would be a good addition to the Insteon Line.

[AdamHLG]

Short Update: The lockups are not from the 6287. The lockups continued after removing the devices. Its an overheating issue. i am goint to try swapping out the 600 watt to a 1000 watt dimmer. If that does not work, going to a relay device. Will advice further.

[AdamHLG]

UPDATE: IT WORKS!!!!!

 

Ok folks. I need to post a follow up for all those that pull up this thread one day.

 

I think I set a record on this forum for how many times I took apart a double gang box to swap devices (times THREE because we did this for THREE double gang boxes). 6 times we opened and swapped crap outta there - for each box.

 

At the end of the day, the 6287 filter in the box was not the problem. It was indeed an overheating issue. The strangest part of the issue was the fact that the Swichlink 2476D that controlled the xenons never overheated. What happened was that the 2476D controlling the xenons got too hot and was overheating the 2476D adjacent to it. That is what ultimately threw me. But what brought me back was the fact that we were experiencing the EXACT same results in all three gang boxes. That ruled out hardware failure. Too much of a coincidence.

 

We replaced the 2476D with the 2476S Swichlink non-dimmable relay for the undercabinet xenons, and kept the 2476D that we 'thought' was defective for the incabinent lights. For those unaware, the 2476S throws off no heat. Fact is, we would never dim the undercabinent xenons anyway. They are work lights. And guess what? NO OVERHEATING and both switches work.

 

So it was all put back together. And guess what? NOISE. This is what started all this. SO, now we took apart the gangs AGAIN and installed the 6287 filters. All switches work. NO NOISE. 100% reliability. Whoa there. 97% reliability.

 

So there you have it. Persistance pays off.

 

Adam

[oronomus]

Adam, glad you solved the problem. My issue is that I bought Xenons exactly for the reason that they are dimmable. I wonder if there is a way to keep the 2476D’s cool enough not to overheat?

[AdamHLG]

Try the 1000 watt dimmer version. Also keep in mind mine didn't overheat per se. It overheated the adjacent 2476D for a different light.