Z-Wave scenes

[TexMike]

Background: I got my ISY a few years ago to support my legacy X-10 devices and decided to use Z-Wave for all new devices. Currently have about a dozen X-10 devices that still work fine for basic functions and have added about 30 Z-Wave devices. During my initial learning curve, I took a cursory look at scenes and thought it was targeted at Insteon and never looked back. I've been able to do everything I've wanted in programs. I recently got four iBlinds Z-Wave blind controllers and because I always want to open/close them together, I put them in a scene and it works great. Sometimes they operate nearly simultaneously, other times not, I assume based on Z-Wave traffic. This got me to thinking if I should be using scenes more and would like pros/cons from those with more experience. Will a scene be more responsive versus a program issuing the same commands? Other pros/cons for using scenes for non-Insteon devices?

Thanks,

Mike

[Teken]

Background: I got my ISY a few years ago to support my legacy X-10 devices and decided to use Z-Wave for all new devices. Currently have about a dozen X-10 devices that still work fine for basic functions and have added about 30 Z-Wave devices. During my initial learning curve, I took a cursory look at scenes and thought it was targeted at Insteon and never looked back. I've been able to do everything I've wanted in programs. I recently got four iBlinds Z-Wave blind controllers and because I always want to open/close them together, I put them in a scene and it works great. Sometimes they operate nearly simultaneously, other times not, I assume based on Z-Wave traffic. This got me to thinking if I should be using scenes more and would like pros/cons from those with more experience. Will a scene be more responsive versus a program issuing the same commands? Other pros/cons for using scenes for non-Insteon devices?
Thanks,
Mike

Generally speaking, a scene is a direct link to multiple device(s) opposed to having extra hops and going through a managed server / controller.

So a scene would realistically be more reliable and faster. With blinds I’ve found depending upon brand & model syncing them really is an art and just luck.

You have nothing to lose by trying either. You might actually see better syncing with a program as you find one set of blinds is slower / faster by X seconds. Using a program would allow you to find tune the speed execution of the same for that apparent sync’d output.


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[TexMike]

Thanks @Teken. I thought only Insteon supported direct linking, i.e., the scene being stored in the device. Doesn't a scene containing Z-Wave devices still have to go through a controller (ISY)? Or I'm I misunderstanding?

[oberkc]

I understood that Z-wave devices support scenes.  Having said that, I am not sure whether the ISY-994 supports z-wave scenes.  I use Z-wave devices in scenes, but these scene also include insteon devices.  Given this, it seems pretty intuitive that the Z-wave scene functionality goes through the controller, since z-wave and insteon cannot talk to each other.  I suspect that this is true even for scenes that contain z-wave devices exclusively.

[simplextech]

44 minutes ago, TexMike said:

Thanks @Teken. I thought only Insteon supported direct linking, i.e., the scene being stored in the device. Doesn't a scene containing Z-Wave devices still have to go through a controller (ISY)? Or I'm I misunderstanding?

With Z-Wave sometimes the terms Scene and Association are used interchangeably but in this context of the ISY I will separate them. 

Scene = ISY function

Association = Z-Wave capability

To start with not all z-wave devices support multiple associations.  If your devices support multiple associations then it is possible to create an association from device to device this is very similar to an Insteon direct link.  This association is from device to device and there is no communication to the controller for these.  The limitation is that the communication is device to device so they must be within communication range and NO routing of messages are involved as a z-wave broadcast message is used for this.  This is very convenient for when you have a z-wave keypad that acts as a scene controller to control multiple light switches.  This can be done from device to device such as motion sensor to light switch, or keypad to switch or whatever combination as long as both devices support multiple associations.

As far as I know the ISY currently does not have a facility in the Admin Console to setup/manage device associations.  (I looked and couldn't find anything).

The ISY has the concept of "Scenes" which is a ISY naming for Insteon Groups.  Doing groups with Insteon is a natural feature of Insteon and so is direct linking.  The ISY took it a step further and allows z-wave devices to be included in these scenes.  These scenes are managed from the controller and sends the commands from the controller and is not a direct device association.  This is a really cool feature of the ISY of grouping z-wave/Insteon devices together into a scene for use but as far as I know it is not using the Z-Wave association feature of the devices.

[lilyoyo1]

Zwave and insteon act differently when it comes to scenes. With insteon, the signal is sent to all devices at once. With zwave, signals are sent 1 at a time to each device resulting in a popcorn effect. Unfortunately, you won't get the same simultaneous effect like you get with insteon

Edited March 15, 2020 by lilyoyo1

[TexMike]

Thanks for the clarifications. So if I understand correctly, for purposes like controlling four blinds together I can create a scene for simplicity, but there is no real advantage as far as response time or anything else. Assuming as in my case, all are Z-Wave.

Thanks,

Mike

[Teken]

2 minutes ago, TexMike said:

Thanks for the clarifications. So if I understand correctly, for purposes like controlling four blinds together I can create a scene for simplicity, but there is no real advantage as far as response time or anything else. Assuming as in my case, all are Z-Wave.

Thanks,

Mike

I would say if the 994 Series Controller is going to be managing these *Scenes* you might very well see them in sync or not. If they are not in sync again you have the ability to add a wait in the program to compensate for the delays in one set of blinds.

Regardless, love to hear what happens using scenes vs a program.

[simplextech]

48 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

With zwave, signals are sent 1 at a time to each device resulting in a popcorn effect.

True from controller managed/sent commands.

Z-Wave Associations use broadcast messaging which is sent to all associated devices at the same time.  The gotcha here is broadcast messages are non-routing so the devices must generally be in the same room or within communication distance and lots of controllers don't fully support Z-Wave associations and lots of devices do not either.

[Teken]

9 minutes ago, simplextech said:

True from controller managed/sent commands.

Z-Wave Associations use broadcast messaging which is sent to all associated devices at the same time.  The gotcha here is broadcast messages are non-routing so the devices must generally be in the same room or within communication distance and lots of controllers don't fully support Z-Wave associations and lots of devices do not either.

From personal experience this also gives that apparent *Pop Corn* effect too. 

[simplextech]

2 minutes ago, Teken said:

From personal experience this also gives that apparent *Pop Corn* effect too. 

Z-Wave associations from a scene controller?  Or from some controller system?  Which controller? -- Now I'm just curious.

I'm also not disagreeing as there's a missing piece with Z-Wave broadcasts vs the simulcast from Insteon.  The timing is still not there so popcorn can/does happen.  Just not as badly when from scene controller to device without a gateway involved.

BTW - I don't use z-wave for lighting for this and other reasons.

[Teken]

4 minutes ago, simplextech said:

Z-Wave associations from a scene controller?  Or from some controller system?  Which controller? -- Now I'm just curious.

I'm also not disagreeing as there's a missing piece with Z-Wave broadcasts vs the simulcast from Insteon.  The timing is still not there so popcorn can/does happen.  Just not as badly when from scene controller to device without a gateway involved.

BTW - I don't use z-wave for lighting for this and other reasons.

Going off fuzzy memory about two years ago I was setting up some Z-Wave door bells and linked directly to a motion sensor. Both door chime / door bells were linked directly to the sensor and each of them had a slight delay before the door bell would chime / go bong. It was super annoying so the client abandoned that setup and kept the Insteon door bell solution I used instead.

Having tried to do the whole routing, beaming, healing, add / remove, 99999999999 repeaters, whatever at the time was just a time suck!

 

[simplextech]

1 minute ago, Teken said:

Going off fuzzy memory about two years ago I was setting up some Z-Wave door bells and linked directly to a motion sensor. Both door chime / door bells were linked directly to the sensor and each of them had a slight delay before the door bell would chime / go bong. It was super annoying so the client abandoned that setup and kept the Insteon door bell solution I used instead.

Having tried to do the whole routing, beaming, healing, add / remove, 99999999999 repeaters, whatever at the time was just a time suck!

 

Were the door bell/chime powered or battery?  This is interesting.  The motion sensor to multiple devices is curious I've never done an association to multiples from a battery sensor only direct to a single powered target.  Which is not valid for the popcorn discussion

Z-Wave takes more planning for sure.

[TexMike]

46 minutes ago, Teken said:

I would say if the 994 Series Controller is going to be managing these *Scenes* you might very well see them in sync or not. If they are not in sync again you have the ability to add a wait in the program to compensate for the delays in one set of blinds.

Regardless, love to hear what happens using scenes vs a program.

Tested several times and most of the time all 4 are nearly synchronized, scene or program. Roughly 20% of the time one is late, but not the same one every time, so again I think Z-Wave traffic causes the delay. If it happens too often and bugs me, I could go with delays for a cascade effect.  I know new Insteon devices are dual band, but I guess I had a bias against power line signals from my X-10 experience and decided to go Z-Wave, maybe the wrong choice, but sort of committed now.

[Teken]

1 minute ago, simplextech said:

Were the door bell/chime powered or battery?  This is interesting.  The motion sensor to multiple devices is curious I've never done an association to multiples from a battery sensor only direct to a single powered target.  Which is not valid for the popcorn discussion

Z-Wave takes more planning for sure.

The door bell is / was 120 VAC powered and the sensor of course was battery powered. Probably if I added more buttaaaaaaaaa it might have worked!

[Teken]

1 minute ago, TexMike said:

Tested several times and most of the time all 4 are nearly synchronized, scene or program. Roughly 20% of the time one is late, but not the same one every time, so again I think Z-Wave traffic causes the delay. If it happens too often and bugs me, I could go with delays for a cascade effect.  I know new Insteon devices are dual band, but I guess I had a bias against power line signals from my X-10 experience and decided to go Z-Wave, maybe the wrong choice, but sort of committed now.

Appreciate the update on that as I was really hoping to see the program with different delays help you solve this. But, not all is lost because if you have one of those remotes you could (IF) willing could tap into the remote and using a dry contact device say I/O Linc / Z-Wave equivalent and make the blinds move in unison. I read a few members going this route because what you're seeing is *A Typical* for blind control. 

[simplextech]

2 minutes ago, Teken said:

The door bell is / was 120 VAC powered and the sensor of course was battery powered. Probably if I added more buttaaaaaaaaa it might have worked!

LOL!

 

[Teken]

Just now, simplextech said:

LOL!

 

It was low fat too - Gotta watch out for my cholesterol !

[simplextech]

Just now, Teken said:

It was low fat too - Gotta watch out for my cholesterol !

What? No Fabio - I can't believe it's not butter!

[Teken]

1 minute ago, simplextech said:

What? No Fabio - I can't believe it's not butter!

LMAO . . . Well, played!

[TexMike]

13 minutes ago, Teken said:

Appreciate the update on that as I was really hoping to see the program with different delays help you solve this. But, not all is lost because if you have one of those remotes you could (IF) willing could tap into the remote and using a dry contact device say I/O Linc / Z-Wave equivalent and make the blinds move in unison. I read a few members going this route because what you're seeing is *A Typical* for blind control. 

No remotes for iBlinds and as a matter of fact there is no manual control. The price is pretty good on the kits, but that's one downside, only way to control after retrofit is through Z-Wave.

[Teken]

No remotes for iBlinds and as a matter of fact there is no manual control. The price is pretty good on the kits, but that's one downside, only way to control after retrofit is through Z-Wave.

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[lilyoyo1]

2 hours ago, simplextech said:

True from controller managed/sent commands.

Z-Wave Associations use broadcast messaging which is sent to all associated devices at the same time.  The gotcha here is broadcast messages are non-routing so the devices must generally be in the same room or within communication distance and lots of controllers don't fully support Z-Wave associations and lots of devices do not either.

While association can cut down on the effect, association only works with a very small and limited number of devices....generally around 4 which still sucks from am automation standpoint. 

Also from my experience (with other controllers), when using association, status isn't reflected with those devices. Depending on how someone programs their house, this isn't an issue but still isn't optimal

[simplextech]

1 hour ago, lilyoyo1 said:

While association can cut down on the effect, association only works with a very small and limited number of devices....generally around 4 which still sucks from am automation standpoint. 

Also from my experience (with other controllers), when using association, status isn't reflected with those devices. Depending on how someone programs their house, this isn't an issue but still isn't optimal

Yes and Yes

 

[bktong]

I want to go back to the point of the popcorn effect.  I installed a new Homeseer dimmer with Z-wave scene feature (multiple taps option) and added to ISY scene.  It does have the popcorn effort relying on the ISY scene.  So, I trigger the ISY scene with a program when the Dimmer is turned on locally or using Button 1 is triggered.  Both cases, I get the effect.  HOWEVER, when I have the program to trigger on/off with double tap (Fast On), all the lights in the ISY scene came on at the same time.  So, I tried with 3 taps, instance and again with 4 taps.   The lights come on/off faster and at the same time in most cases.  

Can someone explain why Dimmer On or 1 Tap have the effect but multi-taps do not?  Not only faster but more reliable with all the lights would trigger the way it should.  Using ISY scene alone with 4+ devices, 1 or 2 devices might not triggered correctly. 

Thanks.  

Edited April 13, 2020 by bktong