UPS Communications problem

[jongig]

I have a large hardwired UPS in my house and it has not posed a problem for the Insteon system until now.

 

I had a outlet in a room which I attached to the UPS for certain reasons of needed electricity in a power outage but I have one light that is controlled by a Insteon dimmer which now doesn't communicate with the rest of the system because of it's power comming from that outlet. I had traced the outlet but had never realized that the fireplace light was connected to that circuit. I'm frankly surprised because I have no lights on circuits with outlets in the house.

 

Can I plug something into one of the outlets from the UPS and then have re-established contact or is there something else I can do.

 

What I know about the UPS is that it does not pass on the voltage from the AC line but rather makes it's own AC and outputs an exact voltage. It has a web browser and from that you can actually set the output voltage.

 

John

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi John,

 

You may want to use Access Points to bridge between the outlets but I am not sure how successful this would be.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

I have a large hardwired UPS in my house and it has not posed a problem for the Insteon system until now.

 

I had a outlet in a room which I attached to the UPS for certain reasons of needed electricity in a power outage but I have one light that is controlled by a Insteon dimmer which now doesn't communicate with the rest of the system because of it's power comming from that outlet. I had traced the outlet but had never realized that the fireplace light was connected to that circuit. I'm frankly surprised because I have no lights on circuits with outlets in the house.

 

Can I plug something into one of the outlets from the UPS and then have re-established contact or is there something else I can do.

 

What I know about the UPS is that it does not pass on the voltage from the AC line but rather makes it's own AC and outputs an exact voltage. It has a web browser and from that you can actually set the output voltage.

 

John

[ergodic]

I'd suggest you try isolating the UPS on both its input and output sides with FilterLincs, and then as suggested use an Access Point on the output side after the FilterLinc to provide Insteon communication on that side. Success is not guaranteed but I believe it will work.

 

If the UPS output is more than 10A you either have to use multiple FilterLincs on the output side, or use one of the higher-current X10 filters - which may or may not be successful.

[jongig]

I'd suggest you try isolating the UPS on both its input and output sides with FilterLincs, and then as suggested use an Access Point on the output side after the FilterLinc to provide Insteon communication on that side. Success is not guaranteed but I believe it will work.

 

If the UPS output is more than 10A you either have to use multiple FilterLincs on the output side, or use one of the higher-current X10 filters - which may or may not be successful.

 

Can't isolate the UPS as it's a 240 volt and like I said it's hardwired. It's not a small unit and with batteries is about half a ton.

 

The UPS uses 240 volt to make 120 volt with a neutral. The UPS doesn't connect to the neutral of the house. I think powerline uses the neutral so that would exlain why the dimmer doesn't work.

 

I will try a access point.

 

John

[Brian H]

The Insteon signal will not pass through the UPS as you found.

It sounds like one that has zero transfer time. As it is always running on DC that keeps the batteries charged and runs the inverter to make the AC. There is no direct coupling between the houses AC Lines and the UPS generated AC to the outlets.

Must be a clean sine wave from the UPS. If it was a modified sine wave. I would expect any module on the USP not to work well.

I would also say try an Access Point as the Zero Crossing fro the homes AC feed and the UPS Zero Crossing maybe not in sync. I believe the Access Point will re-sync to the UPS's output.

[jongig]

Hi John,

 

You may want to use Access Points to bridge between the outlets but I am not sure how successful this would be.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

I have a large hardwired UPS in my house and it has not posed a problem for the Insteon system until now.

 

I had a outlet in a room which I attached to the UPS for certain reasons of needed electricity in a power outage but I have one light that is controlled by a Insteon dimmer which now doesn't communicate with the rest of the system because of it's power comming from that outlet. I had traced the outlet but had never realized that the fireplace light was connected to that circuit. I'm frankly surprised because I have no lights on circuits with outlets in the house.

 

Can I plug something into one of the outlets from the UPS and then have re-established contact or is there something else I can do.

 

What I know about the UPS is that it does not pass on the voltage from the AC line but rather makes it's own AC and outputs an exact voltage. It has a web browser and from that you can actually set the output voltage.

 

John

 

I already have two access points in the house to bridge the 2 leggs of the house AC. For this one leg of the UPS I would think I only need one access point, is this right? Chances are that I won't need to have insteon devices on the other leg of the UPS.

 

Strange is that only 2 feet from the switch is the switch for lights in the same room which are on a different circuit. I really would have expected the lights to be on that circuit. It's been logical how the house has been wired up to this point.

 

John

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi John,

 

You need one Access Point on the leg of the UPS and 2 to bridge the phases. In total you need at least 3.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[ergodic]

You are looking at two potential issues: one is that the UPS isolates the AC on its output side, making powerline communication between the input and output sides of the UPS effectively impossible. Access Points on each leg will - at least in theory - resolve that.

 

The second issue, potentially the more serious, is that many UPSen present themselves as a high-frequency shunt at least on the input side. This is commonly referred to around here as a 'signal sucker'. This loads down Insteon communication signaling to the point where it fails, at least in the electical vicinity of the UPS unit if not most of the house. This is why I suggested a FilterLinc to isolate the input, but that isn't possible using ay off-the-shelf solution with a high-current 208V unit.

 

You can place an Access Point on the output leg(s) of the UPS you want to have communication. It will 'talk' to the other two you already have. But as Michel noted this doesn't always solve the problem, and adding Access Points frequently makes things worse. In your situation I'd consider trying a passive Insteon hardwired phase-coupler bridged between the input and output leg. This should couple the high-frequency Insteon signaling across the UPS without affecting its operation. In my own experience I think this has a better chance of success than adding Access Points, though you should try either or both to see what works best.

 

The second issue - if you have it - is more nettlesome. I know some UPSen use an isolation transformer on the input side to suppress common mode noise and transient spikes and these I think shouldn't pose a problem. But if your UPS input or output impedance presents as a high-frequency 'signal sucker' to the line then your're going to have problems with Insteon signaling no matter what kind of cross-coupling you use. So as a first step I think you should probably contact the manufacturer to find out what the input and output impedance curves for your unit look like. If the lines don't load badly in the 200+KHz range then you're OK on this score.

 

If it's an issue I don't have any easy answer, maybe someone else does. You could try putting your own high-current isolation transformer on the leg(s) causing signal loss. The transformer's inductance and decoupling should be enough to prevent Insteon signal loss. This would be quite expensive and, as there's no guarantee of success, I can't really recommend it unless you can borrow one somehow to try it first.

 

I have griped repeatedly about the really sad state of Insteon filtering solutions but I don't know of anything still that works effectively at higher current or voltage. Even the 15A 120V X10 Pro wired-in filter unit didn't perform well (ie at all) when I tried it.

[jongig]

Thanks for all the input. I just plugged the access point in and it seems to work fine. I now have control of the lights again.

 

The UPS has been here since we built the house and I never thought it would cause a problem for the Insteon system. I guess I just got lucky, it works.