bdslack Posted June 14, 2020 Posted June 14, 2020 Any advice appreciated: We built our farmhouse about 5 years ago and I went with the following setup for our home automation: ISY for lighting ELK for security Both Alexa and Google for Voice Samsung Frame TV's Nest for HVAC Hardwired HD cameras backing up to a dedicated DVR We are now in the process of shopping for a 2 bedroom condo in San Diego that will be our "Florida" winter home. We plan to do a full tear out and retrofit - opening up some walls and gutting most of the existing interior to fit our needs. It will be a place that our family and friends can enjoy as well. I love my current setup, but I have some concerns on the complexity with guests and possible noise over the existing neutral lines. While I love Insteon, there are times when it does things that are not expected - and some devices need to be reset etc. I also notice that there hasn't been a ton of development on the hardware side for some time. If you were in my situation - what system would you use today on a fresh install to have similar automation for lighting and security that my primary property has in a home that will be 2K miles from your home base? There is a dizzying array it seems, cost is not an issue, but I don't want to do a Control4 type system as I want to have 100% control over the system. I have no experience with systems from Smart Tings or Amazon. Appreciate any feedback!~
Teken Posted June 14, 2020 Posted June 14, 2020 Any advice appreciated: We built our farmhouse about 5 years ago and I went with the following setup for our home automation: ISY for lighting ELK for security Both Alexa and Google for Voice Samsung Frame TV's Nest for HVAC Hardwired HD cameras backing up to a dedicated DVR We are now in the process of shopping for a 2 bedroom condo in San Diego that will be our "Florida" winter home. We plan to do a full tear out and retrofit - opening up some walls and gutting most of the existing interior to fit our needs. It will be a place that our family and friends can enjoy as well. I love my current setup, but I have some concerns on the complexity with guests and possible noise over the existing neutral lines. While I love Insteon, there are times when it does things that are not expected - and some devices need to be reset etc. I also notice that there hasn't been a ton of development on the hardware side for some time. If you were in my situation - what system would you use today on a fresh install to have similar automation for lighting and security that my primary property has in a home that will be 2K miles from your home base? There is a dizzying array it seems, cost is not an issue, but I don't want to do a Control4 type system as I want to have 100% control over the system. I have no experience with systems from Smart Tings or Amazon. Appreciate any feedback!~ If you decide to go with Insteon for home automation. Completing the 4 Tap Beacon test as outlined in the full users manual to insure all phases are coupled / bridged is paramount. As many condos are three phase powered so no guarantee everything is on the same phase. In a residential home it’s single split phase so only two sides to worry opposed to three.Since this is new install nothing stopping you from trying out Z-Wave. No worries about different phases but you do need to insure a solid Z-Wave mesh. If you go down this route only purchase 500 Series Z-Wave hardware for all the benefits of range, encryption, power management, etc. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 1
bdslack Posted June 16, 2020 Author Posted June 16, 2020 Thank you - this is very helpful info! I will start going down the Z-Wave rabbit hole and see what i find. . . Again many thanks - I really didn't think about that option.
lilyoyo1 Posted June 16, 2020 Posted June 16, 2020 On 6/14/2020 at 12:51 PM, bdslack said: Any advice appreciated: We built our farmhouse about 5 years ago and I went with the following setup for our home automation: ISY for lighting ELK for security Both Alexa and Google for Voice Samsung Frame TV's Nest for HVAC Hardwired HD cameras backing up to a dedicated DVR We are now in the process of shopping for a 2 bedroom condo in San Diego that will be our "Florida" winter home. We plan to do a full tear out and retrofit - opening up some walls and gutting most of the existing interior to fit our needs. It will be a place that our family and friends can enjoy as well. I love my current setup, but I have some concerns on the complexity with guests and possible noise over the existing neutral lines. While I love Insteon, there are times when it does things that are not expected - and some devices need to be reset etc. I also notice that there hasn't been a ton of development on the hardware side for some time. If you were in my situation - what system would you use today on a fresh install to have similar automation for lighting and security that my primary property has in a home that will be 2K miles from your home base? There is a dizzying array it seems, cost is not an issue, but I don't want to do a Control4 type system as I want to have 100% control over the system. I have no experience with systems from Smart Tings or Amazon. Appreciate any feedback!~ I personally prefer insteon over zwave for lighting and zwave for everything else. Regardless of whatever other issues I've had with zwave, I can't get past the popcorn effect it has when turning off/on (1 device at a time). I've used insteon in many projects throughout Orange county. Many were condos and apartments. All ran without issue. Still do. There's 1 building off the 55 specifically that has multiple units on the same floor with insteon and none has called about any issues yet. That's not to say you wouldn't, just letting you know it's possible. If you're fully renovating and redoing the wiring, there are steps you can take (which I would do regardless of which system) to lessen the chance of issues. The main thing is to properly plan from the start so that you aren't throwing things at the wall hoping they'll stick.
Teken Posted June 16, 2020 Posted June 16, 2020 14 hours ago, bdslack said: Thank you - this is very helpful info! I will start going down the Z-Wave rabbit hole and see what i find. . . Again many thanks - I really didn't think about that option. Since this is essentially going to be a gut out of the interior I would encourage you to sit down pen to paper with the wife. Determine where you believe core devices and services will be and insure conduit with a pull string is present. Install multiple runs wiring for Ethernet, Speaker, Low Voltage, Coaxial, HDMI thought out. As noted if in the worse case scenario you simply don't know what the future holds for a specific area, room, zone, conduit is your friend. In 2020 there is absolutely no reason to run anything less than CAT6 Ethernet cabling . . . If finances aren't an issue than spend the extra for CAT7 / CAT8 and Fiber throughout the building. 4K content like 1080P will be common in the next four years along with 8K which should be 5-8 years. All three types of cabling is shielded so this negates RFI / EMI to a large extent and fiber just can't be beat in terms of shear bandwidth along with all the security and safety that comes with fiber optics. No possible induced RFI, EMI, and Lightning damage . . . Even though coaxial has seen a dramatic slow down in terms of install you simply can't beat having this as a backup for audio, video, and Internet. Wire all the rooms using *Keystone* cover plates as this will allow you to use almost any keystone insert from IR, RJ11, RJ12, RJ45, USB, RCA, HDMI, VGA, Fiber, Coaxial, 2.5 / 3.5 mm. Using high quality CAT6 / CAT7 / CAT8 cabling almost any source can be sent down the wire. Even though POE camera systems are all the rage don't skimp on installing power and signal wires for legacy camera systems. This offers flexibility on the hardware you can purchase and install no matter the situation. It should be noted that if you're not familiar with wiring insure any wire that runs inside an interior wall is CM / CMR rated to do so and is solid copper at least 23 AWG. Do not fall prey to low priced CCA ( Copper Clad Aluminum ) Ethernet cable as this type of cable is NOT in wall rated for fire safety no matter what is printed on the box. In most homes there are dedicated circuits for sump, furnace, fridge, dishwasher etc. Plan to have a few dedicated outlets for the 994 Series Controller and 2413S PLM to avoid power line noise issues. Given most homes run a combination of 14-2, 14-3, 12-2, 12-4 Romex wiring for lighting and outlets. Wiring all of the outlets for 12-2 / 12-3 Romex is a small investment you can't beat having in place. Lastly, invest the money and time to install Roxul fireproof insulation within all of the interior walls as doing so will reduce noise, lower energy bills with respect to heating and cooling and God forbid will contain and slow down the spread of a fire. Roxul is made of a by product of metal slag and so does not absorb water so will not mold / mildew. Insects and rodents will not nest or consume Roxul so you'll never have to worry about this problem. Rock On . . .
lilyoyo1 Posted June 16, 2020 Posted June 16, 2020 1 hour ago, Teken said: Since this is essentially going to be a gut out of the interior I would encourage you to sit down pen to paper with the wife. Determine where you believe core devices and services will be and insure conduit with a pull string is present. Install multiple runs wiring for Ethernet, Speaker, Low Voltage, Coaxial, HDMI thought out. As noted if in the worse case scenario you simply don't know what the future holds for a specific area, room, zone, conduit is your friend. In 2020 there is absolutely no reason to run anything less than CAT6 Ethernet cabling . . . If finances aren't an issue than spend the extra for CAT7 / CAT8 and Fiber throughout the building. 4K content like 1080P will be common in the next four years along with 8K which should be 5-8 years. All three types of cabling is shielded so this negates RFI / EMI to a large extent and fiber just can't be beat in terms of shear bandwidth along with all the security and safety that comes with fiber optics. No possible induced RFI, EMI, and Lightning damage . . . Even though coaxial has seen a dramatic slow down in terms of install you simply can't beat having this as a backup for audio, video, and Internet. Wire all the rooms using *Keystone* cover plates as this will allow you to use almost any keystone insert from IR, RJ11, RJ12, RJ45, USB, RCA, HDMI, VGA, Fiber, Coaxial, 2.5 / 3.5 mm. Using high quality CAT6 / CAT7 / CAT8 cabling almost any source can be sent down the wire. Even though POE camera systems are all the rage don't skimp on installing power and signal wires for legacy camera systems. This offers flexibility on the hardware you can purchase and install no matter the situation. It should be noted that if you're not familiar with wiring insure any wire that runs inside an interior wall is CM / CMR rated to do so and is solid copper at least 23 AWG. Do not fall prey to low priced CCA ( Copper Clad Aluminum ) Ethernet cable as this type of cable is NOT in wall rated for fire safety no matter what is printed on the box. In most homes there are dedicated circuits for sump, furnace, fridge, dishwasher etc. Plan to have a few dedicated outlets for the 994 Series Controller and 2413S PLM to avoid power line noise issues. Given most homes run a combination of 14-2, 14-3, 12-2, 12-4 Romex wiring for lighting and outlets. Wiring all of the outlets for 12-2 / 12-3 Romex is a small investment you can't beat having in place. Lastly, invest the money and time to install Roxul fireproof insulation within all of the interior walls as doing so will reduce noise, lower energy bills with respect to heating and cooling and God forbid will contain and slow down the spread of a fire. Roxul is made of a by product of metal slag and so does not absorb water so will not mold / mildew. Insects and rodents will not nest or consume Roxul so you'll never have to worry about this problem. Rock On . . . Cat 6 is good. I use Cat 6a on my jobs though
jfai Posted June 16, 2020 Posted June 16, 2020 … and don't forget at least 18/4 to every window and patio door for possible motorized window treatments. Even better, add a home run of Cat5e in case you don't like RF-controlled motors. For runs to windows that are longer than about 80-100 feet, use 16/4. Additionally, think about possible locations of motion sensors and run 20/4 to each of these. Battery-powered devices need to be avoided... Don't forget a run of Cat5e to the mailbox, the doorbell/intercom locations, the irrigation controller, the garage opener, whole house filter, solar system and house battery inverter/controller. If you have large open living spaces (e.g. "Great room"), think about seating arrangements and put a couple in-floor outlets there.
Teken Posted June 16, 2020 Posted June 16, 2020 Just now, lilyoyo1 said: Cat 6 is good. I use Cat 6a on my jobs though I agree CAT6A shielded cable is better and the only downside to CAT6A, CAT7, CAT8 is the thicker cabling.
lilyoyo1 Posted June 16, 2020 Posted June 16, 2020 1 minute ago, Teken said: I agree CAT6A shielded cable is better and the only downside to CAT6A, CAT7, CAT8 is the thicker cabling. The 6a isn't nearly as bad as 7^. No special pieces either for fiber. Seeing how things are moving, I'm hard pressed to see the need for installing anything higher than 6a for future proofing. I wouldn't waste money on anything more than 6a. By the time we get to where it's needed, the cables would probably need to be replaced anyway or the home would be gutted for a remodel. At that point, put in cat 25 or super duper fiber. Lol. Hell, everything will probably be wireless at that point anyway
Teken Posted June 16, 2020 Posted June 16, 2020 (edited) 36 minutes ago, jfai said: … and don't forget at least 18/4 to every window and patio door for possible motorized window treatments. Even better, add a home run of Cat5e in case you don't like RF-controlled motors. For runs to windows that are longer than about 80-100 feet, use 16/4. Additionally, think about possible locations of motion sensors and run 20/4 to each of these. Battery-powered devices need to be avoided... Don't forget a run of Cat5e to the mailbox, the doorbell/intercom locations, the irrigation controller, the garage opener, whole house filter, solar system and house battery inverter/controller. If you have large open living spaces (e.g. "Great room"), think about seating arrangements and put a couple in-floor outlets there. Great add on's and with any Smart Home being able to monitor the environment is critical for a successful deployment. Taking the time to map out where environmental sensors for bathrooms, bedrooms, and common areas. Results in a smarter residence while offering you critical insight as to how best to manage energy consumption vs personal comfort. Wiring for ambient light, humidity, and temperature isn't a nice to have but a must have for long term comfort and insight. If you intend to employ POE within the residence to power different hardware don't skimp on that POE Switch! Planning ahead to have the bulk of the A/V, network, security, and home automation installed into a central location is key. This helps out in the long term maintenance and management while reducing electronic clutter throughout the home. Don't forget to install the appropriate sized UPS to protect all of that expansive investment along with proper venting and cooling. This would be a good time to install a quiet and high flow (CFM) exhaust fan in that central closet. Some have incorporated the proper ducting for the central air conditioning to help keep things cool which is a great idea. But, this does not supersede the need to have temperature regulated exhaust fan to guard against over heating. This closet should obviously be on a dedicated circuit to reduce possible line noise. Keep in mind there should be no less than two independent (outlets) using circuit breakers on opposing legs to balance the loads. From there using any of hundred PDU's / power strips is fine to help offer electricity. I personally use Enterprise grade (managed PDU's) to allow me to have remote access (IF) and when needed to turn on, turn off, cycle power. You'll never regret spending the money once you need to cycle power to a locked up device! Edited June 16, 2020 by Teken
carealtor Posted June 16, 2020 Posted June 16, 2020 24 minutes ago, jfai said: … and don't forget at least 18/4 to every window and patio door for possible motorized window treatments. Even better, add a home run of Cat5e in case you don't like RF-controlled motors. For runs to windows that are longer than about 80-100 feet, use 16/4. Can you point me to (provide link) the motorized window treatments that you are referring to that are hardwired and use Cat5? I would be very interested. I don't like wireless much and really don't like battery powered. Thx.
jfai Posted June 16, 2020 Posted June 16, 2020 5 minutes ago, carealtor said: Can you point me to (provide link) the motorized window treatments that you are referring to that are hardwired and use Cat5? I would be very interested. I don't like wireless much and really don't like battery powered. Thx. All Somfy motors are available with RS485.
Teken Posted June 16, 2020 Posted June 16, 2020 11 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said: The 6a isn't nearly as bad as 7^. No special pieces either for fiber. Seeing how things are moving, I'm hard pressed to see the need for installing anything higher than 6a for future proofing. I wouldn't waste money on anything more than 6a. By the time we get to where it's needed, the cables would probably need to be replaced anyway or the home would be gutted for a remodel. At that point, put in cat 25 or super duper fiber. Lol. Hell, everything will probably be wireless at that point anyway I'm sure wireless at some point will be super duper but for me using a hard line within the infrastructure reduces interference which translates to higher reliability. Wireless at this point simply can't offer the same consistent bandwidth and throughput vs hard line. I can't tell you how many times going into a home and being asked to trouble shoot WiFi related issues for people. I always start when do you cook?!? This 9X out of 10 results in a completely blank stare with a WTF??? Again, I reiterate my question as to when do they cook . . . They blurt out some random time like 5:XX and I go OK *Go do whatever you do on that fancy cell / tablet*. As they do I walk into the kitchen and fire up the microwave and the client always runs out saying *Yeah it just happen again did you see it* I just shake my head and help them find a channel that isn't so prone to the microwave interference . . .
lilyoyo1 Posted June 16, 2020 Posted June 16, 2020 55 minutes ago, Teken said: I'm sure wireless at some point will be super duper but for me using a hard line within the infrastructure reduces interference which translates to higher reliability. Wireless at this point simply can't offer the same consistent bandwidth and throughput vs hard line. I can't tell you how many times going into a home and being asked to trouble shoot WiFi related issues for people. I always start when do you cook?!? This 9X out of 10 results in a completely blank stare with a WTF??? Again, I reiterate my question as to when do they cook . . . They blurt out some random time like 5:XX and I go OK *Go do whatever you do on that fancy cell / tablet*. As they do I walk into the kitchen and fire up the microwave and the client always runs out saying *Yeah it just happen again did you see it* I just shake my head and help them find a channel that isn't so prone to the microwave interference . . . I get that. I prefer hard-line too but we're talking 15 + years from now. Whatever wire we run today for someone won't benefit the buyer today. By the time anyone catches up, it won't be worth the extra cost
Teken Posted June 16, 2020 Posted June 16, 2020 3 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said: I get that. I prefer hard-line too but we're talking 15 + years from now. Whatever wire we run today for someone won't benefit the buyer today. By the time anyone catches up, it won't be worth the extra cost Maybe in those 15+ years we'll smash some cold ones together and have some good laughs!
lilyoyo1 Posted June 16, 2020 Posted June 16, 2020 55 minutes ago, Teken said: Maybe in those 15+ years we'll smash some cold ones together and have some good laughs! Hopefully sooner
apostolakisl Posted June 16, 2020 Posted June 16, 2020 If you run conduit all over the place you won't ever have to worry about what wire will be needed down the road. Conduit is as cheap or cheaper than a lot of wire types and allows you to future proof things like crazy. Conduit runs all over the place!! Most of them will be empty at first, maybe forever. But it is worth it. You can dead-end conduit into various wall spaces so that later on you can just pop a little hole into the sheetrock if you want to add something weird in an area. Also, I highly recommend not going with a textured wall. They charge more for the "slick" finish but it just looks so much better and if you ever patch it, you can make it perfect. Matching texture is just never quite right. Put boxes in the wall in all of your closets that you run the conduits to and use larger conduit to connect the boxes to each other. A hub and spoke arrangement. Take tons and tons and tons of pictures, and video before the sheetrock goes up so you know where everything is. 1/2 inch pvc conduit is very cheap and easy to install. A propane torch and a nice smooth fanning technique turns it into flex conduit as well. Or you can run smurf tube, but the corrugation makes it harder to pull wires down the road. Personally, I would stick with Insteon for your switches. The switches they have been making in the last couple years are very good in my opinion. They look good, feel good, sound good, and work great. Plus you can pick them up at Christmas time for half price. Security in a 2 bedroom condo probably doesn't really need an Elk. I would just go with a DSC system and use the ISY node server for it. It is way cheaper and once integrated with ISY will have most of the features an Elk would offer.
bdslack Posted June 20, 2020 Author Posted June 20, 2020 Thanks everyone! Lots to think about and consider. I am just now learning the integration of ISY into google home so I might just end up going in that direction. Appreciate the feedback as always! This place will only be 1-1.2K sqft in size so I'm not sure I can fit a rack into the design. Lots to think about and tinker with!
Mustang65 Posted June 20, 2020 Posted June 20, 2020 58 minutes ago, bdslack said: Thanks everyone! Lots to think about and consider. I am just now learning the integration of ISY into google home so I might just end up going in that direction. Appreciate the feedback as always! This place will only be 1-1.2K sqft in size so I'm not sure I can fit a rack into the design. Lots to think about and tinker with! I purchased an older home of about 1K sqft. So, finding a place to put the electronics is a challenge. A while back I purchased a Structured Media Enclosure (Amazon) that has a hinged door (ordered separately) on it and decided I am going to recess it into the utility room wall with conduit up into the attic. It will be installed below the shelves, but that is not bad as I can pull up a chair to work in the box. The local metal shop will cut a hole at the top and bottom of the door so I can mount a small exhaust fan (with thermostat) to keep the electronics from overheating in the box. I think that with the holes and natural convection will probably do the trick without the fan, but just to be safe. I pre-measured all the electronic equipment and made cardboard cutouts of each and laid them in the enclosure. Plenty of room for what I need. Structured Media Enclosure They now have a 42" version, had they had the option back then I would have went with the bigger enclosure.
dbuss Posted June 20, 2020 Posted June 20, 2020 48 minutes ago, Mustang65 said: I purchased an older home of about 1K sqft. So, finding a place to put the electronics is a challenge. A while back I purchased a Structured Media Enclosure (Amazon) that has a hinged door (ordered separately) on it and decided I am going to recess it into the utility room wall with conduit up into the attic. It will be installed below the shelves, but that is not bad as I can pull up a chair to work in the box. The local metal shop will cut a hole at the top and bottom of the door so I can mount a small exhaust fan (with thermostat) to keep the electronics from overheating in the box. I think that with the holes and natural convection will probably do the trick without the fan, but just to be safe. I pre-measured all the electronic equipment and made cardboard cutouts of each and laid them in the enclosure. Plenty of room for what I need. Structured Media Enclosure They now have a 42" version, had they had the option back then I would have went with the bigger enclosure. I'm in the process of installing two Leviton 49605-30W RF Transparent Structured Media Enclosures. I too would have went with the 42" model had it been available.
lilyoyo1 Posted June 20, 2020 Posted June 20, 2020 22 minutes ago, dbuss said: I'm in the process of installing two Leviton 49605-30W RF Transparent Structured Media Enclosures. I too would have went with the 42" model had it been available. Channel vision has a smoked plexiglass cover as well for the front which looks extremely good https://www.homecontrols.com/Channel-Vision-Smoked-Plexi-Glass-Hinged-Enclosure-Door-CVC01xxD
dbuss Posted June 20, 2020 Posted June 20, 2020 23 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said: Channel vision has a smoked plexiglass cover as well for the front which looks extremely good https://www.homecontrols.com/Channel-Vision-Smoked-Plexi-Glass-Hinged-Enclosure-Door-CVC01xxD That's awesome!
midrar Posted June 21, 2020 Posted June 21, 2020 We are 3 weeks away from moving into our new build but also my third home where I have used Insteon. I also had similar concerns but as other members have said, Insteon switches have come a long way. My biggest issue was the lack of integration which PolyISY now brings to Insteon. Being this was my third home, I’ve learned a lot and these were my highlights. 8 wire for thermostat for humidifier control Elk for security and wired every walk in closet and pantry into it to automatically turn on lights. Ran conduit throughout Prepped for cctv, security, and leak detectors near anywhere there was a sink. Installed a flow meter for my sprinkler Wired for ceiling mounted poe access points for WiFi Everything else was already mentioned. 1
madcodger Posted June 21, 2020 Posted June 21, 2020 4 hours ago, midrar said: We are 3 weeks away from moving into our new build but also my third home where I have used Insteon. I also had similar concerns but as other members have said, Insteon switches have come a long way. My biggest issue was the lack of integration which PolyISY now brings to Insteon. Being this was my third home, I’ve learned a lot and these were my highlights. 8 wire for thermostat for humidifier control Elk for security and wired every walk in closet and pantry into it to automatically turn on lights. Ran conduit throughout Prepped for cctv, security, and leak detectors near anywhere there was a sink. Installed a flow meter for my sprinkler Wired for ceiling mounted poe access points for WiFi Everything else was already mentioned. Best summary of the things people should do but often forget I've read in quite some time. These inquiries on forum boards often result in a lot of statements of the obvious and people spouting their views on their favorite tech. This post was more insightful, and I hope the OP pays attention to it.
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