Adding Z-Wave?

[DennisC]

What is the range of the motion sensor you purchased? This sounds more like you have exceeded the current range, rather than a Zwave mesh issue. Some devices have settings to change the range, does yours?

[DennisC]

As a follow up, this test is from the manual and should help determine if your within range:

TEST MODE  when it’s not mounted on the wall and the tamper switch isn’t pressed. The LED indicator will then flash every time motion is detected. Use this mode to make sure the mounting location for your sensor is within Z-Wave range and to optimize positioning for motion detection. Turn the timer and lux knobs all the way to the le to launch test mode for the sensor. It will now report motion and trigger associated Z-Wave lights anytime movement is detected (regardless of daylight and as oen as every 5 seconds). Remember to adjust the knobs using the supplied flat screwdriver tool when exiting test mode. MIN 5 SEC MAX 12 MIN MAX 900 LUX MIN 10 LUX TEST MODE 2. NORMAL MODE  when the sensor is mounted on the wall and the tamper switch is pressed in for at least 10 seconds. The LED indicator will NOT flash when motion is detected to save battery. The sensor will send motion alerts and trigger connected lights according to the timer and lux knob settings or advanced Z-Wave settings. If the  LED  indicator  flashes when motion is detected in normal mode, it means  LOW BATTERY.

If you try the range you are talking about with the cover off does the light come on?

[Kentinada]

So the Zooz documentation says the motion sensor should operate within 100'.  I tried putting the sensor in Test mode. I cannot get 100' feet away inside my house.  I check to see when I lose communication with it by using my Mobilinc app. It stops reporting Sensor updates once I get to the other end of the inside of my house - which is not 100'.  Wonder if Zwave is the way to go for this.  I have an INSTEON V2 Motion Sensor outside on a tree in my front yard, and works fine.  Now I have many INSTEON devices throughout the house so the repeating network is far more robust.  I only have the Zwave module in my ISY and no other Zwave devices yet.  I went with the Zwave motion sensor because it is truly meant to be used outdoors.  Now it looks like I'll have to buy a couple Zware plugs and place them strategically to see if the communications range gets better. 

[Kentinada]

After doing so more reading (like this article), I'm guessing I'm going to have to add more just a couple Zwave plus devices to get my Zwave mesh network to have the coverage of my entire house.  If there was truly an INSTEON motion sensor that was rated for outdoor use, it would have been much simpler. 

[jec6613]

7 minutes ago, Kentinada said:

After doing so more reading (like this article), I'm guessing I'm going to have to add more just a couple Zwave plus devices to get my Zwave mesh network to have the coverage of my entire house.  If there was truly an INSTEON motion sensor that was rated for outdoor use, it would have been much simpler. 

You can use any old outdoor motion sensor with a dry contact (IOLinc or door sensor), by the way.

[DennisC]

I only glanced at the manual but I thought I saw a range of 30 feet?

[lilyoyo1]

18 hours ago, DennisC said:

What is the range of the motion sensor you purchased? This sounds more like you have exceeded the current range, rather than a Zwave mesh issue. Some devices have settings to change the range, does yours?

It sounds like he's referring to zwave range issue in itself not the sensing range of the unit itself

[DennisC]

Just now, lilyoyo1 said:

It sounds like he's referring to zwave range issue in itself not the sensing range of the unit itself

You are most likely correct.

[Kentinada]

9 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

It sounds like he's referring to zwave range issue in itself not the sensing range of the unit itself

So I learn something every time I come to this forum.    I just looked again at the specs of the Zooz motion sensor (See attached).  Do I read this right? Motion detection up to 30' is referring to the distance from the motion sensor itself in order to be picked up.  i.e. theoretically if I jumped up and down right in front of it but was 31' away, it wouldn't detect the motion. Theoretically.  The 100' refers to being able to communicate with another Zwave device and it should be able to go 100' if the line of sight was truly unobstructed. Also correct? But walls, trees, etc knock this number down. And there's no really good way to determine except by trial and error with moving Zwave devices around.  Am I close?

[dbuss]

Your assumptions are pretty much spot on. The "Up To" range, is "if" conditions are absolutely perfect. In the real wireless world, we seldom, if ever, see perfect conditions. There are so many things as you mentioned that reduce the effective wireless range of a device. Welcome to wireless world.

[lilyoyo1]

31 minutes ago, Kentinada said:

So I learn something every time I come to this forum.    I just looked again at the specs of the Zooz motion sensor (See attached).  Do I read this right? Motion detection up to 30' is referring to the distance from the motion sensor itself in order to be picked up.  i.e. theoretically if I jumped up and down right in front of it but was 31' away, it wouldn't detect the motion. Theoretically.  The 100' refers to being able to communicate with another Zwave device and it should be able to go 100' if the line of sight was truly unobstructed. Also correct? But walls, trees, etc knock this number down. And there's no really good way to determine except by trial and error with moving Zwave devices around.  Am I close?

You are correct. 100' for sensing range hurts more than it helps. In my experience, in the avg home, communication range is closer to 30', going down to 10-15 when there are obstructions

[Kentinada]

@lilyoyo1 that is sad that they overstate the range.  I might move an old Gen1 INSTEON sensor outdoors instead of making an investment at this point in many new Zwave devices. 

[mwester]

The stated range is accurate.  Just incomplete.  The missing part is that in addition to open space, the device on the other end (the ISY) needs to have a good antenna/RF (the ISY is lacking in that regard alas), and the particular frequency being used must have no other noise (electrical or RF or other z-wave or baby monitors or what-have-you operating nearby).  So the end result is that your practical range depends on your location.  Dense urban environments -- measure it in rooms.  Suburban environments -- maybe 30 feet, but highly variable.  Out where I'm at -- I'd probably get the full 100 feet.

Now about the ISY -- the latest dongle removed support for the external antenna, and then apparently required other tuning (in a negative direction) to pass FCC tests.  The result has been that almost every user has noticed that the range of the ISY's z-wave is very very short.  So, what that means is that even in the open air, you're not going to get 100'.  Instead, you'll need an always-on device within about 10 feet of teh ISY that can act as the first repeater in teh mesh on behalf of teh ISY.  That device, depending on its quality, might get you up to 100 feet to your other device.  Again, assuming no electrical racket, no RF noise, no competition for the channel, etc.

[Kentinada]

3 minutes ago, mwester said:

...

Now about the ISY -- the latest dongle removed support for the external antenna, and then apparently required other tuning (in a negative direction) to pass FCC tests.  The result has been that almost every user has noticed that the range of the ISY's z-wave is very very short.  So, what that means is that even in the open air, you're not going to get 100'.  Instead, you'll need an always-on device within about 10 feet of teh ISY that can act as the first repeater in teh mesh on behalf of teh ISY.  That device, depending on its quality, might get you up to 100 feet to your other device.  Again, assuming no electrical racket, no RF noise, no competition for the channel, etc.

That is sad news.   I just ordered a couple Leviton DZPA plug-in modules. I'll put one close to my ISY and then try the other one in different places in my house and see what kind of range I get.

[Michel Kohanim]

@mwester,

35 minutes ago, Kentinada said:

So, what that means is that even in the open air, you're not going to get 100'

This is not true. For Z-Wave certification, we have a test called ERTT which does precisely what you are saying Z-Wave dongle can't. In fact, ISY does very well with almost 0 packet loss at 100 feet in multiple directions.

With kind regards,
Michel

[mwester]

1 hour ago, Michel Kohanim said:

@mwester,

This is not true. For Z-Wave certification, we have a test called ERTT which does precisely what you are saying Z-Wave dongle can't. In fact, ISY does very well with almost 0 packet loss at 100 feet in multiple directions.

With kind regards,
Michel

Well, I stand corrected -- I'm not going to argue with the "ERTT" test results.

 

(Never-the-less, my experience along with many others who've posted here is that with the new z-wave dongle, one needs a z-wave plus device within a very few feet of the ISY in order to re-establish the same mesh one had with the original 300-series dongle in the ISY.)

[GregE]

Doing a search for ZWave since I think I need to add it to my install.  This is good info.  I have a 240v Insteon controller on my hot water heater at my lake house and it's been a little finicky lately.  Looks like Insteon has discontinued it so I think I'll need to go to ZWave.

[lilyoyo1]

Range for me has been a mixed bag. I've found it to be good when using the new 500 series with all 500 series zwave plus devices. When using it with older devices it does seem like it's weaker than the 300 that may be just me. 

With that said, I've always made it a habit to put a repeater close to the isy instead of depending on it to talk to all my devices. 

[Kentinada]

Do I understand it correctly that a device like the Leviton DZPA1 which is a Zwave Plus device serves as a repeater as well? 

[lilyoyo1]

11 minutes ago, Kentinada said:

Do I understand it correctly that a device like the Leviton DZPA1 which is a Zwave Plus device serves as a repeater as well? 

You're correct. I'm not a big fan of levitons devices even though they work well. 

[asbril]

Most, if not all, Zwave Plus devices (except battery operated)  are repeaters as well

[Kentinada]

25 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

You're correct. I'm not a big fan of levitons devices even though they work well. 

@lilyoyo1 what brand do you like? 

[lilyoyo1]

44 minutes ago, Kentinada said:

@lilyoyo1 what brand do you like? 

If you're looking for a plug-in device, I like aeotech smartswitch 6

[madcodger]

Personally, I've found:

1) The z-wave radio/antenna configuration in the ISY is a bit "less-optimized" than that in other z-wave controllers I've used, including the Homeseer Zee S2 and an older SmartThings hub. I STILL PREFER THE ISY due to reliability as a device, but my experience has been that the ISY has a bit shorter "unassisted" range for z-wave. I've no idea why. I don't doubt that it did well in whatever lab test was done, and I certainly believe Michel. But by way of comparison, and based on my "small n",  the ISY is not the best for z-wave range "out of the box". But it doesn't need to be, because...

2) To help overcome this, as noted earlier, put a 500 series device nearby. Keep in mind, though, that this eats up one "hop".

3) To REALLY fix things, put an Aeotec Repeater nearby, and then another at the other end of the building. I don't even like Aeotec equipment personally, but those little repeaters are fantastic. I've had them turn a spotty z-wave system (even with multiple wired, 500 series devices nearby) into a rock solid system. I've no idea why they work better than repeating devices, but they do, in my experience.

4) The repeating function/capability of devices seems to vary dramatically. I've stopped relying on it, and just put a couple of Aeotec repeaters in, which solved the problem in each case. But I've tried the "heal" repeatedly while relying on just wired devices to repeat, and it was spotty until I added the repeaters, which fixed things instantly after a single "heal". Admittedly, I have an "n" of only three (two buildings with the repeaters, one without, and the "without" is located in another state and doesn't have an ISY (yet). The two that now have the repeaters were spotty before despite multiple wired devices, and are now solid. The one where there are no repeaters has many wired devices and is "pretty good", but not perfect, and is still running my SmartThings experiment until I can get back there to change it out (one day, whenever COVID permits).

All that said, Your Mileage May Vary. If you have a different experience, that's great. Or not. I don't care, and don't want to debate you (you know who you are). This is just my experience. Do with it what you want. Or not. But the little Aeotec repeaters worked wonders for me, while relying on repeating devices did not.

 

[lilyoyo1]

1 hour ago, madcodger said:

I've no idea why they work better than repeating devices, but they do, in my experience.

 

 

 

Aeotech's repeater amplify the zwave signal vs solely repeating it which is why it may work better than others