3-Way Switch Problem

[Kentinada]

I just replaced 2 normal 3-way switches with INSTEON 2477S switches.  I added the switches via the Admin portal just fine.  I created a scene called "Basement Landing Lights" that has both switches in the scene as controllers/responders.  I mimicked what I did for another 3-way set up which works fine.  Anyway, if I manually press the on button on either switch, the landing lights come on.  If I manually press the off rocker on either switch, the lights go off.  Perfect.  Almost.  If I try to turn the lights on from the Admin portal, it works if when press the On button in the Admin portal for the switch that is actually connected to the light.  If I try it with the other switch, the switch actually goes to the on position but the lights don't come on.  What am I missing?

[tmorse305]

You need to control the scene at the scene level, not at the switch level. Sending the on command to one of the switches will not trigger the scene.  

[Kentinada]

5 minutes ago, tmorse305 said:

You need to control the scene at the scene level, not at the switch level. Sending the on command to one of the switches will not trigger the scene.  

@tmorse305 OK thanks.  So I guess I have it set up right and this is expected behavior.  Appreciate the quick response.  

[apostolakisl]

2 hours ago, Kentinada said:

@tmorse305 OK thanks.  So I guess I have it set up right and this is expected behavior.  Appreciate the quick response.  

That is the magic of Insteon and other similar protocols.  The switches are all independent of each other.  Each of those two switches can be responders to other scenes not just the one that it is also a controller for.  In your particular case, that may not matter.  But if you use your imagination, you can come up with all kinds of scenarios where the same switch behaves differently depending on what scene you use to control it, or if you send commands directly to it.  The switches are not bound to each other's behavior.  

[Kentinada]

6 hours ago, apostolakisl said:

That is the magic of Insteon and other similar protocols.  The switches are all independent of each other.  Each of those two switches can be responders to other scenes not just the one that it is also a controller for.  In your particular case, that may not matter.  But if you use your imagination, you can come up with all kinds of scenarios where the same switch behaves differently depending on what scene you use to control it, or if you send commands directly to it.  The switches are not bound to each other's behavior.  

Yes, I'm starting to  think a little outside the box.  Plus with these switches, I have both the On and Off commands to work with.  With the old dumb switches, all you could do was toggle the light on or off. 

[asbril]

I use ISY programs for virtual 3-way with my Zwave switches. This works like a charm.

[mwester]

I use the z-wave wired three-way units -- this has the advantage that the remote switch is far, far cheaper plus it requires no programming or scenes or anything -- meaning that when I'm gone, nobody is going to have to pull the switches out of the wall in order to get the house lights working again.

[asbril]

32 minutes ago, mwester said:

I use the z-wave wired three-way units -- this has the advantage that the remote switch is far, far cheaper plus it requires no programming or scenes or anything -- meaning that when I'm gone, nobody is going to have to pull the switches out of the wall in order to get the house lights working again.

Same here, to replace existing plain old 3-way I also use the Zwave switches, but in some cases I created a virtual 3-way for when I want 1 switch to trigger another and vice-versa.

Interestingly,  I have one 3-way setup in my home where the "slave" switch is in a concrete wall with insufficient space in the box to put the Zwave auxiliary switch. With the Inovelli switch one can keep the plain old "slave" switch and make it work perfectly as 3-way.

[apostolakisl]

5 hours ago, mwester said:

I use the z-wave wired three-way units -- this has the advantage that the remote switch is far, far cheaper plus it requires no programming or scenes or anything -- meaning that when I'm gone, nobody is going to have to pull the switches out of the wall in order to get the house lights working again.

That works great provided you only want those 2 switches to strictly control that single scene in exactly the same fashion.  Which, admittedly, is often the case.  But with Insteon, you can make it so the two (or more) switches control things differently.  For example, you can have two scenes for that single 3-way with both switches as responders in both scenes but each is a controller of its own scene.  Then the one switch could have a different on-level and ramp-rate for the scene as compared to the other, even though it is the same fixtures controlled.   Like the switch at the top of the stairs could turn the scene on to 50% slowly, and the switch at the bottom of the stairs could turn scene on quickly to 100%.  And you could do things like have the switch at the bottom of the stairs also control other switches that the switch at the top of the stairs does not.  Or you could have one switch trigger a program to run while the other does not.  And so on.

[Kentinada]

I maybe don't understand this as well as I should so I'd appreciate your help.  In my 1st post of this thread, I included a screenshot of each switch in a new INSTEON 3-way installation.  I'll include them there for ease of reference as well.  So the scenario is 1 switch at the top of the basement stairs and 1 at the bottom of the stairs that turn on the lights at the landing at the bottom of the stairs. This works right now.  But after reading some of the other comments on this thread, it got me thinking.  I have several other lights in my downstairs family room on INSTEON all in 1 scene.  I would like to press the switch at the top of the stairs and have it turn on the landing scene (in the attachments) and also now turn on the family room scene.  Can I have the On button of the upstairs switch control both scenes?

Secondly, should I have added these switches as Responders to the other switch in the scene?  Is that required? Good idea? Totally unnecessary?

Thanks for all the help I get here!

[lilyoyo1]

5 minutes ago, Kentinada said:

I maybe don't understand this as well as I should so I'd appreciate your help.  In my 1st post of this thread, I included a screenshot of each switch in a new INSTEON 3-way installation.  I'll include them there for ease of reference as well.  So the scenario is 1 switch at the top of the basement stairs and 1 at the bottom of the stairs that turn on the lights at the landing at the bottom of the stairs. This works right now.  But after reading some of the other comments on this thread, it got me thinking.  I have several other lights in my downstairs family room on INSTEON all in 1 scene.  I would like to press the switch at the top of the stairs and have it turn on the landing scene (in the attachments) and also now turn on the family room scene.  Can I have the On button of the upstairs switch control both scenes?

Secondly, should I have added these switches as Responders to the other switch in the scene?  Is that required? Good idea? Totally unnecessary?

Thanks for all the help I get here!

Just add all those devices as a responders to the switch you want to use to turn them on

[Kentinada]

20 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Just add all those devices as a responders to the switch you want to use to turn them on

@lilyoyo1 OK I'm still not quite there.  Is it correct that a device can only be a Controller on one scene at a time?  When I tried to add Landing Switch to the Basement All On scene (the 2nd scene I want controlled), it said it was already a controller on a scene and did I want to make a responder?  I cancelled out of that. Do I need a new scene that has the landing lights AND the family room lights?  I'm a bit confused on this.  Appreciate your patience and help.

[lilyoyo1]

45 minutes ago, Kentinada said:

@lilyoyo1 OK I'm still not quite there.  Is it correct that a device can only be a Controller on one scene at a time?  When I tried to add Landing Switch to the Basement All On scene (the 2nd scene I want controlled), it said it was already a controller on a scene and did I want to make a responder?  I cancelled out of that. Do I need a new scene that has the landing lights AND the family room lights?  I'm a bit confused on this.  Appreciate your patience and help.

Controllers can only be used in 1 scene as a controller. It can be part of any amount as a responder. You don't have to create a new scene though.

If you want those devices to turn on and off with the upstairs lights only, add all of them to the same 3way scene that you've already created for the steps to the upstairs switch only. Those will go in as responders and configure them to turn on to whatever level you want them to be. 

What will happen is the upstairs switch will turn on/off your lights whenever it is turned on/off. The downstairs switch will only turn on/off the upstairs switch.

[Kentinada]

24 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

If you want those devices to turn on and off with the upstairs lights only, add all of them to the same 3way scene that you've already created for the steps to the upstairs switch only. Those will go in as responders and configure them to turn on to whatever level you want them to be. 

 

What I don't know how to do is limit the devices to being added as a responder to the Upstairs landing switch only.  When I add them to the Basement Landing scene, they get added as responders to both switches in the scene.  What am I missing? Sorry to be so dull.

[lilyoyo1]

9 minutes ago, Kentinada said:

What I don't know how to do is limit the devices to being added as a responder to the Upstairs landing switch only.  When I add them to the Basement Landing scene, they get added as responders to both switches in the scene.  What am I missing? Sorry to be so dull.

I just looked at my setup. I misspoke on how i set it up.  I created separate scenes for my upstairs 3way.  The top light is a controller with the other devices (including bottom switch) as a responders. The bottom switch is a controller with the other switches (including top) as responders. I apologize for that

[Kentinada]

@lilyoyo1 that worked perfectly!   Thanks for clearing that up for me!

[lilyoyo1]

22 minutes ago, Kentinada said:

@lilyoyo1 that worked perfectly!   Thanks for clearing that up for me!

You're welcome. Glad you're up and running now the way you like

[Kentinada]

Well, they almost are.    Not always but many times when I push the On button of the upstairs landing light switch which is supposed to turn on 5 devices, the On indicator on the switch comes on but then the Off indicator flashes red and not all 5 lights turn on.  Usually 4 are on and not always the same 4.   Same thing can happen on the Off command.  Not all devices go off and the Off indicator flashes.    I have a RL1 switch that I've used for a long time to turn on and off 4 of the devices in the basement and it always works.  Ideas?

[Brian H]

Not all going On or Off and a Red LED flash.

Communications problem causing some modules not to change state and  the Red LED flashing indicates not all the modules responded to the command from the Controller.

You may want to try the Scene Test function in the Administrative console. 

Event Viewer in Level 3 mode. Will show communications and show the number of Hops needed to reach the Responders.

Built in communications tests (4 Tap Test, Beacon Test)  in the Dual Band modules may also show any modules not receiving from any other module.

Any or moved electronic devices about the same time this started?

[Kentinada]

I've tried the Scene Test.  I see all Succeeded messages.  I've tried to capture the log but it doesn't seem to work.  All i get in the txt file is what I've attached. 

ISY-Events-Log.v5.0.16C__Sat 2020.07.25 07.42.41 AM.txt

[Kentinada]

@Brian H Also, what is the "Built in communications tests (4 Tap Test, Beacon Test) "?

[Kentinada]

Here's one other data point.  If I control the scene with 5 devices from software (Mobilinc), it always seems to work.  But when done with the lightswitch, it's hit or miss.  Indications?

[lilyoyo1]

49 minutes ago, Kentinada said:

Here's one other data point.  If I control the scene with 5 devices from software (Mobilinc), it always seems to work.  But when done with the lightswitch, it's hit or miss.  Indications?

When using mobilinc, it's the isy sending the command. When using the switch it's the switch sending it. What bulb are you using that the switch is attached to?

Try unscrewing it and then seeing if comms improve

[Brian H]

1 hour ago, Kentinada said:

@Brian H Also, what is the "Built in communications tests (4 Tap Test, Beacon Test) "?

The communications tests. Are shown in the full manuals for the modules you are using and only for Dual Band modules. Some of us still have I1 power line only modules in use. You tap the set button 4 times and it should start the test. You then look at other modules LED and see if it is flashing. The flashing pattern indicates if the two module can communicate and if they are on the same or opposite phase of the homes wiring. Not all modules may have a flashing pattern as not all modules can directly talk to each other. Some of the newer Dual Bands use a Flow Chart of set button pushes and LED flashing pattern to pick the test. In that case I have seen it called a Beacon Test.

I would also suspect the different command sending location as pointed out.

[apostolakisl]

@Kentinada  I device can only control 1 scene, as you have noted.  If you want a device to control all the devices in two scenes, you do it by creating a third  scene with all of those devices, not by trying to have one switch control 2 scenes.  Just understand that whatever devices you want a switch to control need to be in one scene and that switch needs to control it.  If you happen to have two (or more) switches controlling the exact same devices in the same exact way, then you only need one scene and both switches are set as controllers.Also understand that a scene is more than just WHICH switches, it is also HOW each switch is controlled.  For example, say you have two switches that control your living room lights.  Let's say that one of those two switches is the load for your ceiling lights, and you also have a lamplinc.  Let's say you want switch A to turn the ceiling lights on at 100% and the lamp at 50%.  And you want switch B to turn the  lamp on to 100% and the ceiling at 50%.  You make two scenes.  Switch A controls one scene and switch B controls the other.  All 3 devices are responders to both scenes.  We will call it scene A (the one switch A controls and scene B for the other).  For scene A, set switch A local on level to 100%.  Set switch B to 100% scene response level, and set the lamplinc to 50% scene response level.  For scene B, set switch B local on level to 50%, set switch A to respond to scene B with an on level of 50% and the lamp to respond at 100%.

In the end, both switch control the same 3 devices but to different levels (and/or ramp rates if you like).  And you could do other things, like add more device to one, the other, or both scenes at whatever levels you want switch A or switch B to control them.  And you could make any additional devices controllers to one of those two scenes.  Or even make a 3rd scene if one of your new devices is intended to control those same devices but differently.