Release 5.2.0 (RC3) - OUTDATED

[tibbar]

3 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

You can run zwave without insteon. Simply use the zwave only firmware. Insteon will still work. Polisy has a wifi version which would allow you to carry it around. While that doesn't help you now, it will in the future once isy is ported over.

I do have more insteon then Zwave devices so would not like to change a firmware just to include Zwave device. Yes Polisy does not help. Currently running Unraid server 24-7 with Debian VM running polyglot so at present have no need for Polisy.

[KSchex]

I realize that 5.2.0 is not "released" software and we are using it at our own risk.  All my devices are currently 300 series.  I have recently installed a 500 series module and 5.2.0 in an effort to be more compatible with newer devices.  So far all is good for me but I read about a lot of communication problems and the inability for the ISY to see certain devices without moving them close.  My question is:  Is there a problem with 5.2 that will rear it's ugly head when I add more devices and door locks?

[blueman2]

1 hour ago, tibbar said:

Still running v5.0.16.C afraid of upgrading for this reason.

I still have few outlets and door locks Gen3 and it would be PITA to bring it close to ISY. ISY should have taken approach to this like VERA3. 

Wireless WiFi and ability to run without Insteon Modem so you could bring ISY close to Zwave device. Much easier then bringing device to ISY.

I think most people will not have much if any problems with the upgrade to 5.2.0 from a z-wave perspective.  So I don't mean to scare people off.  I just wanted to share what I did to resolve some issues I was having.   The move from 300 to 500 dongle was for some reason very difficult for my setup, and the 5.0.16C to 5.2.0 upgrade made it even more complex.  

If I had it all to do over again, I would still upgrade to 500 dongle and 5.2.0 software.  Things are finally working better than ever in terms of z-wave.  I did have to remove a couple older Gen 3 devices, but I was OK with that.   

And I did not have to remove any of my door locks or move the ISY to them.  Those I left in place and just did the steps I mentioned.  All my door locks work fine, and they are all VERY old z-wave gen 3 devices.  

Edited September 9, 2020 by blueman2

[lilyoyo1]

29 minutes ago, KSchex said:

I realize that 5.2.0 is not "released" software and we are using it at our own risk.  All my devices are currently 300 series.  I have recently installed a 500 series module and 5.2.0 in an effort to be more compatible with newer devices.  So far all is good for me but I read about a lot of communication problems and the inability for the ISY to see certain devices without moving them close.  My question is:  Is there a problem with 5.2 that will rear it's ugly head when I add more devices and door locks?

Probably not. The issues you're reading about are with existing systems vs newer devices

[blueman2]

1 minute ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Probably not. The issues you're reading about are with existing systems vs newer devices

Agreed.  

[lilyoyo1]

53 minutes ago, tibbar said:

I do have more insteon then Zwave devices so would not like to change a firmware just to include Zwave device. .

The firmware doesn't impact insteon at all in regards to general use. Insteon would still work like normal while the plm is connected. The only thing the zwave only firmware did is prevents the isy from going into safe mode when the plm is unplugged.

This would allow you to move your isy closer temporarily and add devices and move the isy back and hook up your plm like normal

Edited September 9, 2020 by lilyoyo1

[wmcneil]

I'm a long time ISY user, have lots of gen5 devices and a few gen3 devices. Thank you to blueman2 and others that have reported their issues with moving to 5.2.0 . I still have the gen3 zwave module. I haven't upgraded to gen5, because I was waiting to see if polisy as a replacement platform for ISY would be a better place to move forward on zwave.  It now looks like polisy replacing ISY could be quite a long way off in the future, and now we see that UD is moving to "500 module required" for firmware updates as part of getting zwave certification closed. Also,  I see 500 modules are out of stock again currently. It seems likely to me, based on the experiences posted here,  that  5.2.0 may require a lot of heavy lifting for users who haven't previously moved to the 500 module, and/or have gen3 zwave devices. So I'm waiting until the 500 modules are available again, and also to see if we get fixes or improvements beyond 5.2.0 that reduce the amount of heavy lifting.  

[Goose66]

1 hour ago, lilyoyo1 said:

The firmware doesn't impact insteon at all in regards to general use. Insteon would still work like normal while the plm is connected. The only thing the zwave only firmware did is prevents the isy from going into safe mode when the plm is unplugged.

Did not know that. This is good information!

[lilyoyo1]

8 minutes ago, Goose66 said:

Did not know that. This is good information!

I found out on accident once. I was pleasantly surprised. Subsequently Michel confirmed this in a post sometime later

[tibbar]

7 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said:

The firmware doesn't impact insteon at all in regards to general use. Insteon would still work like normal while the plm is connected. The only thing the zwave only firmware did is prevents the isy from going into safe mode when the plm is unplugged.

This would allow you to move your isy closer temporarily and add devices and move the isy back and hook up your plm like normal

So having PLM connected or unplugged?

[lilyoyo1]

5 minutes ago, tibbar said:

So having PLM connected or unplugged?

Both. When using the insteon firmware, it doesn't matter whether the plm is disconnected, dead, or unplugged the Isy goes into safe mode

[hart2hart]

Is it just me or has TapaTalk stopped working with the forum? 

[asbril]

2 minutes ago, hart2hart said:

Is it just me or has TapaTalk stopped working with the forum? 

Maybe it has something to do with the changed graphics of this forum that I noticed yesterday. But I have not checked Tapatalk.

[MrBill]

2 hours ago, hart2hart said:

Is it just me or has TapaTalk stopped working with the forum? 

How is this related to "Release 5.2.0 (RC3) is now available"?   (don't answer it's a rhetorical question, answering would be further off-topic to this thread).

Perhaps a better place to ask this question is the "Site Comments", section of the forum.

Apologies for calling out this specific off-topic comment, but it purely amazes me how threads in the forum get pulled off-topic making specific information much harder to locate. 

[jdmcpherson]

I'm trying to go from 5.0.16C to 5.2.o RC3. Downloaded  the zip file. When I select that to do a manual upgrade I get the the error "Upgrade Failed :Failed uploading file (reported written size is invalid)"

I did not unzip the file - it just says select what you download - correct?

 

Suggestions?

 

Thanks

[lilyoyo1]

On 9/9/2020 at 12:07 PM, wmcneil said:

It seems likely to me, based on the experiences posted here,  that  5.2.0 may require a lot of heavy lifting for users who haven't previously moved to the 500 module, and/or have gen3 zwave devices. So I'm waiting until the 500 modules are available again, and also to see if we get fixes or improvements beyond 5.2.0 that reduce the amount of heavy lifting.  

I don't see the heavy lifting being reduced. If anything it's gotten heavier (due to the change out). 4.0 and 5.0 are simply that different

[MrBill]

14 hours ago, jdmcpherson said:

I'm trying to go from 5.0.16C to 5.2.o RC3. Downloaded  the zip file. When I select that to do a manual upgrade I get the the error "Upgrade Failed :Failed uploading file (reported written size is invalid)"

I did not unzip the file - it just says select what you download - correct?

Correct, don't unzip the file.   I try downloading the file again, and ensure that you are downloading the correct file. (there is a choice of 2, see the first post of this thread.)

[stillwater]

This is a low priority question and I apologize if I have misunderstood the state of play or missed a key message.  

It appears that the emphasis in 5.x RC2 and RC3 are on Zwave. 

At some point it would be good for those of us with no Zwave devices to be advised regarding what version above 5.0.16C has benefits for those without Zwave without undue novel risks from the Zwave-targeted changes.  

I am letting the dust settle but would be glad to upgrade when appropriate to increase the beta test base.  

In my experience versions 5.0.x have been stable for quite a while including many insteon devices, a small but important program base mostly migrated without undue problems from 4.7.3, a rudimentary home-brew local (Raspberry PI) node server, and lots of REST commands and network resources.  

[giesen]

I use the "external antenna" option, with the Zwave antenna mounted outside of the enclosures at the top, above the rack. Nice to ASSume what you dont know.
The "problems" I've had are with Zwave devices dying, having to rebuild the database, and the way devices sometimes "disappear" from programs when changes are made. Other than the 2 enerwave devices I do not have communications errors on the zwave side. Insteon is another matter, but that seems to just be a "pre-failure" symptom of insteon modules. As soon as I see an Insteon taking several attempts to "write updates" I know it's going to be dead within 1-6 months.
So on the Zwave 500 board I don't see an external antenna port...does that mean the option has been removed? So to run 500 I lose option of pre 5 firmware and external antenna, but if I keep 300 I can't run a "final release" v5?
What a nightmare it is to wade through all this.

If it's any consolation, I'm in the same boat as you. After spending years in the 5.x beta and only recently gaining a Z-Wave network that is stable, it's very disappointing to see ISYs with a 300-series module will never see a "release" 5.x. My ISY is tucked away in a 42" Leviton can and am using an external antenna to get the Z-Wave signal out.

So I'm left with only a few options:

1) Stick with my 300-series and 5.0.16 and at some point not be able to take advantage of new ISY features (I realize the delta right now is only 500-series Z-Wave features, but that won't last forever). I can hope I can hold out until ISY is moved to Polisy (who knows when that will come).

2) Move my ISY out of my SMC and buy a 500-series Z-Wave module, which I'm really loathe to do.

3) Dump ISY and Polisy altogether.

I've been in the ISY ecosystem for the better part of a decade, but the protracted Z-Wave problems and 5.0 beta, the inability to sort out node server definitions with the mobile app developers (or creation of their own app), the inability to sort out packaging problems on Polisy for .NET Core, and the lack of movement on getting the AC off of Java have me seriously considering #3. I'm sorry to thread-crap here, but the lack of 300-series support going forward (without a suitable replacement) has me seriously miffed.

I know in general Z-Wave hardware has been nothing short of a nightmare for UDI, and they're probably glad to see the 300-series board go. I feel UDI has tried to be as supportive as possible to mask their other shortcomings, but I think it has reached the point where other projects like Home Assistant have attained critical mass, and the small team at UDI can no longer compete. Feel free to change my mind (or conversely, wish me farewell)

Sent from my SM-N9500 using Tapatalk

[wmcneil]

On 9/12/2020 at 8:10 PM, lilyoyo1 said:

I don't see the heavy lifting being reduced. If anything it's gotten heavier (due to the change out). 4.0 and 5.0 are simply that different

I was referring to the migration from 5.0.16C and 300 series zwave module to newest 5.x firmware and 500 series zwave module. 

[lilyoyo1]

8 hours ago, giesen said:

If it's any consolation, I'm in the same boat as you. After spending years in the 5.x beta and only recently gaining a Z-Wave network that is stable, it's very disappointing to see ISYs with a 300-series module will never see a "release" 5.x. My ISY is tucked away in a 42" Leviton can and am using an external antenna to get the Z-Wave signal out.

So I'm left with only a few options:

1) Stick with my 300-series and 5.0.16 and at some point not be able to take advantage of new ISY features (I realize the delta right now is only 500-series Z-Wave features, but that won't last forever). I can hope I can hold out until ISY is moved to Polisy (who knows when that will come).

2) Move my ISY out of my SMC and buy a 500-series Z-Wave module, which I'm really loathe to do.

3) Dump ISY and Polisy altogether.

I've been in the ISY ecosystem for the better part of a decade, but the protracted Z-Wave problems and 5.0 beta, the inability to sort out node server definitions with the mobile app developers (or creation of their own app), the inability to sort out packaging problems on Polisy for .NET Core, and the lack of movement on getting the AC off of Java have me seriously considering #3. I'm sorry to thread-crap here, but the lack of 300-series support going forward (without a suitable replacement) has me seriously miffed.

I know in general Z-Wave hardware has been nothing short of a nightmare for UDI, and they're probably glad to see the 300-series board go. I feel UDI has tried to be as supportive as possible to mask their other shortcomings, but I think it has reached the point where other projects like Home Assistant have attained critical mass, and the small team at UDI can no longer compete. Feel free to change my mind (or conversely, wish me farewell)

Sent from my SM-N9500 using Tapatalk

 

The 500 series is a suitable replacement  for the 300 series. While you may need the external antenna with your current situation, you could also purchase a plastic door for your cabinet instead of using metal. That would allow you to use the internal board.

When one is going through issues, problems seem bigger than what they really are and the grass seems greener on the other side....until you get to the other side. Sometimes though you have to jump the fence to find out for yourself. As someone who has used multiple hubs (and still continue to test from time to time), the ISY is still my go to hub. It's obviously far from perfect but once you get down to the nitty gritty, there's a reason why so many here haven't jumped ship to hubitat, HA, Smartthings, homeseer, and whatever else is out there. If anything, they'll use other systems to supplement what they are doing with the isy but overall the isy is still king for them. 

Regardless of what you use (in general, not you personally), all products have an EOL. I don't think UDI tries to be supportive due to shortcomings. I think they truly believe they have something great to offer and want to support those who have been willing to support them in their endeavors by purchasing and continuing to use their products. 

I say this often, had this been any other system, you would be stuck at 5.0.16 at the max with the 300 board. Most companies will force you to upgrade your whole system just to take advantage of UDI is doing for the cost of a board swap. Look at how many versions of homeseer, indigo, Smartthings, etc people has had to buy just to keep up with changing times! We complain because we are living through the changes as they happen at a minimal to no cost to us at all. UDI left alot of money on the table in support of it's users. They could've continued to sell the 300 series as is (up to 5.0.16c, certified the 500, change the pins slightly on the boards so it couldn't be backwards compatible and forced you into a new system (for full certification). That's how some companies operate. They could've released polisy with the isy (along with the 700 stick), and forced users to buy that outright. Instead, polyglot is free (without having to completely hack it) vs needing to make small payment for the rights to use it. 

 

I dont know if this changed your mind but hopefully the different perspective helps makes staying or fighting this battle a little bit easier to manage

Edited September 14, 2020 by lilyoyo1

[lilyoyo1]

51 minutes ago, wmcneil said:

I was referring to the migration from 5.0.16C and 300 series zwave module to newest 5.x firmware and 500 series zwave module. 

Thats what im referring too as well. As time has gone on and theyve added stuff, the more work that has needed to be done by then end user. As they go deeper into certification, this most likely will become greater as the gap widens

[lilyoyo1]

11 hours ago, stillwater said:

This is a low priority question and I apologize if I have misunderstood the state of play or missed a key message.  

It appears that the emphasis in 5.x RC2 and RC3 are on Zwave. 

At some point it would be good for those of us with no Zwave devices to be advised regarding what version above 5.0.16C has benefits for those without Zwave without undue novel risks from the Zwave-targeted changes.  

I am letting the dust settle but would be glad to upgrade when appropriate to increase the beta test base.  

In my experience versions 5.0.x have been stable for quite a while including many insteon devices, a small but important program base mostly migrated without undue problems from 4.7.3, a rudimentary home-brew local (Raspberry PI) node server, and lots of REST commands and network resources.  

Outside of a few device additions and bugs, most of 5.0 has been about zwave overall. Until insteon releases their new line, I doubt anything (outside of bug fixes or insteon firmware updates), will actually be about Insteon directly. 

Since all zwave changes happen with the zwave board, if you dont have a board or zwave devices, most likely none will impact insteon

[giesen]

Outside of a few device additions and bugs, most of 5.0 has been about zwave overall. Until insteon releases their new line, I doubt anything (outside of bug fixes or insteon firmware updates), will actually be about Insteon directly. 
Since all zwave changes happen with the zwave board, if you dont have a board or zwave devices, most likely none will impact insteon

Uh did you forget about Node Servers, Polyglot, and PGC? UDI also reworked some of the logic, and created universal Z-Wave/Insteon scenes. There is a ton of changes in 5.0 besides just pure Z-Wave support...

Sent from my SM-N9500 using Tapatalk

[lilyoyo1]

2 hours ago, giesen said:

Uh did you forget about Node Servers, Polyglot, and PGC? UDI also reworked some of the logic, and created universal Z-Wave/Insteon scenes. There is a ton of changes in 5.0 besides just pure Z-Wave support...

Sent from my SM-N9500 using Tapatalk

 

Everyone knows about nodes servers. How could anyone forget?!  The op didn't ask about what 5.0 brings overall over 4. He asked specifically about the zwave updates and how it impacts insteon going forward. I tailored my answer specifically to the question that was asked. 

Edited September 15, 2020 by lilyoyo1