Insteon being discontinued?

[larryllix]

I don't understand why they don't make the niche items.  They already did the r and d.  It is just a matter of putting in the order.  They have very low volume and thus don't make any money on them, but what they do is attract a customer who wants a complete system.  That customer may buy one or two of the niche items, but then 100 of the standard items as part of their complete system.  They chose Insteon for the niche item and because of that, Insteon became their entire system.  The difference between Insteon of old and pretty much every other home automation company was the niche items.  Without those, they have no competitive advantage in a rapidly growing field of many.  In fact, being a small company with really no name recognition and a price point that isn't particularly competitive, they got nothing.  At $80 or whatever, I promise, they aren't losing money when they sell one of the niche items.  Probably they only pay $10-15.  Especially if they standardize the enclosure with the other mass produced items.  

Totally agree. Without the niche items Insteon is on it's way to closing up with so much competition out there. These items are the ones people get enticed with when they get their initial urges.

Insteon has always been criticized for lack of decent sensors and inputs but lacking the rest of the 'odd stuff' will put them under IMHO.

Support people putting out negative propaganda about their own product line will accelerate their quest to closure.

Too bad!. Still the best protocol out there.

HCL

Sent from my SM-G781W using Tapatalk

[bpwwer]

1 hour ago, sorka said:

The MagicHome node server doesn't provide anywhere near the scene level integration of native insteon. 

Can you elaborate on this?  I'm curious because I'm getting a couple of MagicHome bulbs today and will be using the node server.  I'm willing to try and update the node server to work better with Insteon (if it's possible).

[MrBill]

3 hours ago, apostolakisl said:

I don't understand why they don't make the niche items.  They already did the r and d.  It is just a matter of putting in the order.  They have very low volume and thus don't make any money on them, but what they do is attract a customer who wants a complete system.  That customer may buy one or two of the niche items, but then 100 of the standard items as part of their complete system.  They chose Insteon for the niche item and because of that, Insteon became their entire system.  The difference between Insteon of old and pretty much every other home automation company was the niche items.  Without those, they have no competitive advantage in a rapidly growing field of many.  In fact, being a small company with really no name recognition and a price point that isn't particularly competitive, they got nothing.  At $80 or whatever, I promise, they aren't losing money when they sell one of the niche items.  Probably they only pay $10-15.  Especially if they standardize the enclosure with the other mass produced items.  

Personally I happen to agree with you.   I just see what they are doing... the oddball items don't exist anymore.  The great accessories like blank buttons are deleted. Black and grey paddles... deleted. They're making it easier for the masses to understand to understand the product line... few line items, maximum profit.  Standardize. Very much like what their competitors offer. The plug in modules go away because smart bulbs are making them slow sellers.   Why?   Because if it doesn't contribute at least X% to the bottom line, then it's subtracting from the bottom line.

Quote

In fact, being a small company with really no name recognition and a price point that isn't particularly competitive, they got nothing.

Single word.  Nokia.

Quote

Probably they only pay $10-15.

Hard cost of the component isn't the only cost.  Support cost, inventory cost, etc also factor in... fewer line items lower all of those.

The bottom line is cutting towards the mass markets and away from niche audiences to maximize profit because keeping the shareholders happy is more important than the niche market consumers.

[apostolakisl]

34 minutes ago, MrBill said:

.

Single word.  Nokia.

Hard cost of the component isn't the only cost.  Support cost, inventory cost, etc also factor in... fewer line items lower all of those.

The bottom line is cutting towards the mass markets and away from niche audiences to maximize profit because keeping the shareholders happy is more important than the niche market consumers.

1) Nokia doesn't seem like it is a game changer to me.  The fact that Nokia is selling their name to a product that they aren't even going to be involved with or integrating with tells me that Nokia is desperate for money.  I guess Nokia is a name that people are at least kind of familiar with, unlike Insteon, but I bet if you go into a crowded movie theater and yell, "did someone lose a Noikia phone", nobody is going to check their pocket.  I typed "nokia" into google and hit the shopping tab, only thing that comes up is phones.  I asked google for Nokia phone market share, .7%.  The name "Nokia" just doesn't impress and I hope Smartlabs didn't spend much on it.

 

2) I agree, but I think the niche items have such low numbers that the costs will be rounding errors.  Plus the folks ordering those parts aren't going to be the newbies in all likelihood.  

[upstatemike]

As stated above by @MrBill "Richmond Capital Partners is in business to make money for its shareholders". As an investment company that does not mean "use innovation to build the best possible product and expand the business" but rather "make a profit from this investment in the most expedient way possible". Usually that mans sell off chunks of the business or cut costs to the bone to try to recoup the aquisition costs plus show a profit. After that the plan is usually to discard the husk of a company that is left to somebody like Logitech or the folks who run X10.com so they can use their leverage in manufacturing things super cheap to try to squeeze a few more dollars out of the brand name. I don't see where an investment company ruthlessly chasing a quick profit translates into a happy future for insteon.

[larryllix]

23 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

As stated above by @MrBill "Richmond Capital Partners is in business to make money for its shareholders". As an investment company that does not mean "use innovation to build the best possible product and expand the business" but rather "make a profit from this investment in the most expedient way possible". Usually that mans sell off chunks of the business or cut costs to the bone to try to recoup the aquisition costs plus show a profit. After that the plan is usually to discard the husk of a company that is left to somebody like Logitech or the folks who run X10.com so they can use their leverage in manufacturing things super cheap to try to squeeze a few more dollars out of the brand name. I don't see where an investment company ruthlessly chasing a quick profit translates into a happy future for insteon.

Many companies buy up competitive companies just to sell off existing inventory, and/or just trash the company. It is a way of ensuring your company makes money by eliminating the competition. That doesn't appear to be happening as it is taking too long, in this case.

Well, we can only hope anyway, and also hope it even matters after only the bare components are left to build a voice activated and/or app remote control system.

[MrBill]

50 minutes ago, apostolakisl said:

The fact that Nokia is selling their name to a product that they aren't even going to be involved with or integrating with tells me that Nokia is desperate for money.

Nokia's not desperate.... it's a 150 year old company that in 2020 employed 92,000 people in 100 countries.

It's true that American consumers are most aware of Nokia from when it was the largest phone manufacturer on the planet.  Your correct that after a 10 year slide, no one is going to check their pocket if you announce a found nokia phone in a crowded theater.  All the same Nokia has strong positive brand recognition.

I've covered in other posts how the Nokia deal came to be. For those that missed it just jet over to linkedin and read Rob Lilleness resume.  Note that his prior startup Medio was acquired by Nokia in 2014 and that he left the Nokia in 2017, the same year he became CEO at Smartlabs.  I also suspect, but don't have facts, that Nokia is a major player in Richmond Capital Partners..investor, stock owner etc. 

We don't know what will happen in the future but I seriously doubt we will see the name Insteon completely abandoned.  I suspect we will continue to see a slimmed down product line that's much less expensive to support.  It also may be that one day only the Nokia line is available, I suspect by then tho, whatever controller/hub/modem etc exists will be backward compatible with the switches we have.

Nokia's not desperate for cash, Smartlabs was desperate for brand awareness.

[Techman]

Smartlabs is making and selling the Nokia branded products. It appears that Smartlabs just licensed the Nokia brand name for its new and slimmed down line of products.

 

[upstatemike]

43 minutes ago, MrBill said:

I suspect we will continue to see a slimmed down product line that's much less expensive to support.  It also may be that one day only the Nokia line is available...

I'm thinking maybe by the end of this year.

[MrBill]

2 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

I'm thinking maybe by the end of this year.

I doubt seriously it will happen that quickly, If it happens I'd give it 2-5 years.

[sorka]

3 hours ago, bpwwer said:

Can you elaborate on this?  I'm curious because I'm getting a couple of MagicHome bulbs today and will be using the node server.  I'm willing to try and update the node server to work better with Insteon (if it's possible).

Although you can drag the mh node in the devices into a scene, the mh controller doesn't actually respond in scenes. 

To be equivalent, I'd want to be able to configure scenes with RGBW levels for each scene as well as ramp rates for each channel. None of this is doable currently with the node server.

 

The only way to control the mh controller via the node server is to write programs to set the levels that you want. Again, there's no ramp rate either so no way to control the speed of fades.

[lilyoyo1]

On 9/6/2021 at 4:17 PM, upstatemike said:

You are correct. If Insteon was not being discontinued then those items that are not dependent on  scarce chips would still be available, but many of them are not available so....

They're not available because no one was buying them to warrant making them. For example, the last time they ordered colored filters for the keypads and switches was 3 years prior to discontinuing them. How much business sense does it make to produce a whole new batch for it to sit around for another 3-4 years?

22 hours ago, apostolakisl said:

I don't understand why they don't make the niche items.  They already did the r and d.  It is just a matter of putting in the order.  They have very low volume and thus don't make any money on them, but what they do is attract a customer who wants a complete system.  That customer may buy one or two of the niche items, but then 100 of the standard items as part of their complete system.  They chose Insteon for the niche item and because of that, Insteon became their entire system.  The difference between Insteon of old and pretty much every other home automation company was the niche items.  Without those, they have no competitive advantage in a rapidly growing field of many.  In fact, being a small company with really no name recognition and a price point that isn't particularly competitive, they got nothing.  At $80 or whatever, I promise, they aren't losing money when they sell one of the niche items.  Probably they only pay $10-15.  Especially if they standardize the enclosure with the other mass produced items.  

Because niche products doesnt sell.An argument can be made if you buy 100 core devices, a person can live with 1 or 2 outside devices. In fact we've already done that with the Isy. How many people were already using network resources to control hue, magic home, Sonos,etc. before nodeservers came out? When you look at most people, they may have 3 or 4 different brands of stuff in their homes being controlled by their voice assistant.

It's not just the cost of the device they're taking into account. Its the number of devices they have to purchase in order for the factory to set up to make the device as well as the cost of storing them.

Going off your 10-15 dollars to make a device. Lets say they have to make 2000 of them for the factory to produce them at that price. That means they need to spend 30k to carry something that may take a year or so to sell.

Now look at storage. Just off the product that sells, lets say they may need 3k sf warehouse. However to hold onto a bunch of non selling items, they need 5k sf. Given they are located in Irvine Ca. they're probably looking at 1.70sf. You're talking about spending an extra 3k a month in order to sell an extra 1k worth of product. Does that make good business sense?

22 hours ago, upstatemike said:

A good point about niche items being more of a sales tool than a direct revenue stream. New customers who don't really know what they want or need look at a vendor with a large selection of devices and feel confident that they are looking at a robust ecosystem that is safe to invest in and that will likely do whatever they need it to down the road. The niche items can trigger an initial commitment to the brand even if that same customer never ends up buying any niche items at all.

It is better for stockholders to attract new customers than to worry about a few thaousand dollars of slow moving inventory.

Its more than a few thousand in product. Its also thousands in extra space needed to store them. The customer base they are looking for arent going in looking at whole house solutions. They simply want to control a few things. Even if they grow their systems, they are going to add more of the same product. For other stuff, they'll probably go with whats popular with their chosen voice assistant. Whether they sell 100 devices to 1 person or 5 devices to 20 people, they're still making the same amount. If anything, the 20 people can make them more money.

1) they have room to grow and add devices. The person who buys 100 devices doesnt necessarily need more. If half of those 20 people purchase 5 more devices,they've already made more than they wouldve.

2) More recommendations. that 1 person may have 10 people that comes to their house. Maybe 2 will buy something. If those other 20 people also have 2 referrals, thats 40 people buying stuff. What business would ignore that?

21 hours ago, sorka said:

The niche items are what drive new customers to adopting the entire line and to some extent keeps existing customers. 

 

But Insteon left large volume items on the table that they never made. For example, they never came out with an an LEG RGB controller. The MagicHome node server doesn't provide anywhere near the scene level integration of native insteon. I have RGB recessed strip lighting all over my home and Insteon still hasn't developed a general purpose multi channel low voltage module.

Niche items drive niche customers. Hobbyists, techies and DIY people. Some integrators who are at that level would be interested in whole home solutions but for the avg person who simply wants to control a light or 2, not so much. They have their own sales data and customer usage at hand to figure out the best path forward for them. Information that no one has on here. The fact that many other companies are coming to the same conclusions with their product lines shows that they're making the right decision despite whats said on here.

Few automation companies have gotten into strip lighting for a reason. In insteon's case, the money required to design and build one doesnt make sense when so many pop up on Amazon and ebay at such low prices. Especially with how most people use them. Sure an insteon user may integrate it with their system, but just like Michel says about homekit, would enough people buy it to make it worth their time and money?

17 hours ago, apostolakisl said:

1) Nokia doesn't seem like it is a game changer to me.  The fact that Nokia is selling their name to a product that they aren't even going to be involved with or integrating with tells me that Nokia is desperate for money.  I guess Nokia is a name that people are at least kind of familiar with, unlike Insteon, but I bet if you go into a crowded movie theater and yell, "did someone lose a Noikia phone", nobody is going to check their pocket.  I typed "nokia" into google and hit the shopping tab, only thing that comes up is phones.  I asked google for Nokia phone market share, .7%.  The name "Nokia" just doesn't impress and I hope Smartlabs didn't spend much on it.

 

2) I agree, but I think the niche items have such low numbers that the costs will be rounding errors.  Plus the folks ordering those parts aren't going to be the newbies in all likelihood.  

People here in America may only know Nokia for their phones but they still know Nokia. The name is still much more recognizable than smartlabs or insteon. For all what you think they are, they are still a multi Billion (Billion with a "B") company. Not to shabby for worthless and unknown company id say.

17 hours ago, larryllix said:

 My wife worked in the insurance industry for most of her life. Insurance companies typically have all the types of coverage, ie. life, term, medical, dental, travel etc.  Dental insurance is mostly always a dead loss, due to so much competition, and will likely never produce a profit. However, when a salesman goes out to your company and attempts to sell an insurance package to the CEO, the first thing that gets dropped is "We don't want to shop in multiple places. We want a complete package to avoid all the hassle of multiple accounts, dealing with multiple companies, and multiple attitudes, phone numbers etc.. etc.."

As an installer of smarthome systems, who is going to want to deal with so many different brands, hubs, knowledge, and all the other support BS that goes with cross-integrating them? Jack of all trades, master of none comes to mind here. With techie users it is different but the argument to sell SmartHome mainline profit excuses, just doesn't fly with me.

HCL

Insteon isn't looking at selling to installers. They are looking to sell to the avg. person. Installers who are looking to use insteon are generally low end. The high end and top dollar installers are looking to sell product lines that are truly integrated such as Crestron, Savant, and C4. They dont just want lighting. They want A/V, Cameras, Alarm, HVAC, etc. As great as the ISY is for us (and the integrations polisy brings), there's a big difference between using it and using any of those other systems. Even then, they also have drivers to use other stuff such as 3rd party thermostats, strip lighting, etc.

17 hours ago, upstatemike said:

As stated above by @MrBill "Richmond Capital Partners is in business to make money for its shareholders". As an investment company that does not mean "use innovation to build the best possible product and expand the business" but rather "make a profit from this investment in the most expedient way possible". Usually that mans sell off chunks of the business or cut costs to the bone to try to recoup the aquisition costs plus show a profit. After that the plan is usually to discard the husk of a company that is left to somebody like Logitech or the folks who run X10.com so they can use their leverage in manufacturing things super cheap to try to squeeze a few more dollars out of the brand name. I don't see where an investment company ruthlessly chasing a quick profit translates into a happy future for insteon.

If that was their plan, they wouldnt have taken time and money to invest in the line. Look at x10- zero investment. Just pushing out the same products in the same manner as they did 30 years ago. Still looks the same too.

15 hours ago, MrBill said:

I doubt seriously it will happen that quickly, If it happens I'd give it 2-5 years.

I can see this timeline too. Its the same thing I say about the 994. At some point Polisy will replace it. Yes, having the 994 gives a cheaper option but it makes zero financial sense to have a product thats half the cost of your main product and needing to update separate systems constantly. The same with Insteon. Why hold onto the old when you have a new line that can do the exact same thing. You're just wasting money at that point.

[apostolakisl]

58 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

 

People here in America may only know Nokia for their phones but they still know Nokia. The name is still much more recognizable than smartlabs or insteon. For all what you think they are, they are still a multi Billion (Billion with a "B") company. Not to shabby for worthless and unknown company id say.

 

Smartlabs has paid money to Nokia to use their name, not their billions.  Labeling the switches "Nokia" is strictly a marketing move.  Nokia website has made it clear that the switches are Smartlabs, not Nokia products.  Nokia is a failed name in the US.  They used to be a player, now .7%.  When you go that direction, your name is synonymous with "failure".  Perhaps there is some European market where "Nokia" impresses people.  Here, nope.  Perhaps they could have paid Boeing some money to use their name.   

[lilyoyo1]

2 minutes ago, apostolakisl said:

Smartlabs has paid money to Nokia to use their name, not their billions.  Labeling the switches "Nokia" is strictly a marketing move.  Nokia website has made it clear that the switches are Smartlabs, not Nokia products.  Nokia is a failed name in the US.  They used to be a player, now .7%.  When you go that direction, your name is synonymous with "failure".  Perhaps there is some European market where "Nokia" impresses people.  Here, nope.  Perhaps they could have paid Boeing some money to use their name.   

I know what smarthome has done in regards to licensing. This isnt my first rodeo with this line.Ive been talking about these devices before they were even announced as Nokia.

My comment was geared towards the name itself not about finances. You can call them a failure over phones but that goes to show how limited people are when it comes to stuff. With .7% of the smartphone market, they are still a multi billion dollar corporation.

Alas, my post and this post isnt about Nokia and their failures as a phone maker. Its about the name. As I stated in my original post, more people know the Nokia name than they do Insteon, Smartlabs, or anything else they came up with.

[apostolakisl]

2 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

I know what smarthome has done in regards to licensing. This isnt my first rodeo with this line.Ive been talking about these devices before they were even announced as Nokia.

My comment was geared towards the name itself not about finances. You can call them a failure over phones but that goes to show how limited people are when it comes to stuff. With .7% of the smartphone market, they are still a multi billion dollar corporation.

Alas, my post and this post isnt about Nokia and their failures as a phone maker. Its about the name. As I stated in my original post, more people know the Nokia name than they do Insteon, Smartlabs, or anything else they came up with.

And my point is that the name isn't worth squat.  Frankly, I think it is worth less than squat.  A name that is equated with failure is worth less than a name not known at all.

[lilyoyo1]

4 minutes ago, apostolakisl said:

And my point is that the name isn't worth squat.  Frankly, I think it is worth less than squat.  A name that is equated with failure is worth less than a name not known at all.

Some name is better than No name. While it might not be worth much to you, its worth something to someone and thats what matters. As a matter of fact, for the first time, i've had people ask me if I knew about Nokia's new stuff. Never before have I had that with insteon or smartlabs so it has worked on some level.

[apostolakisl]

8 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Some name is better than No name. While it might not be worth much to you, its worth something to someone and thats what matters. As a matter of fact, for the first time, i've had people ask me if I knew about Nokia's new stuff. Never before have I had that with insteon or smartlabs so it has worked on some level.

I'm just gonna say, I hope they didn't pay much.

[MrBill]

12 hours ago, apostolakisl said:

Nokia is a failed name in the US.

This is your opinion and it's not shared widely.  Nokia is a more widely recognized name than Insteon.  Nokia's handset business was sold to Microsoft in 2014, unfortunately Android and iOS continued to sell more units than the Windows phone.  It's not like people that bought Nokia handsets regretted it and felt it was a waste of money, there were just more popular options..... same thing happened to blackberry, those that were blackberry lovers still have fond memories, but no one paints a big negative black X on the history of either device.

There's actually more people that have negative opinions of the Insteon name than have negativity towards Nokia.  Just last night I read a long post on another site about someone's history with Home Automation.  They started with Insteon in the early Insteon era and never got the system to work correctly and error free, they finally replaced it with Wink and hated that decision too, now he's installing z-wave.   This isn't the only time I've gotten this sense, I've suggested Insteon as solutions to people on other sites and get a lot of push back and negativity in posts or comments that follow mine.  To many, Insteon is a failed product.

[apostolakisl]

5 minutes ago, MrBill said:

This is your opinion and it's not shared widely.  Nokia is a more widely recognized name than Insteon.  Nokia's handset business was sold to Microsoft in 2014, unfortunately Android and iOS continued to sell more units than the Windows phone.  It's not like people that bought Nokia handsets regretted it and felt it was a waste of money, there were just more popular options..... same thing happened to blackberry, those that were blackberry lovers still have fond memories, but no one paints a big negative black X on the history of either device.

There's actually more people that have negative opinions of the Insteon name than have negativity towards Nokia.  Just last night I read a long post on another site about someone's history with Home Automation.  They started with Insteon in the early Insteon era and never got the system to work correctly and error free, they finally replaced it with Wink and hated that decision too, now he's installing z-wave.   This isn't the only time I've gotten this sense, I've suggested Insteon as solutions to people on other sites and get a lot of push back and negativity in posts or comments that follow mine.  To many, Insteon is a failed product.

To paraphrase Danny DeVito, the last company to make buggy whips probably made the best buggy whips around . . .  I don't want to pay money for that buggy whip company name either.  Blackberry made a good device, they failed.  Nokia sounds like they are playing the Sears game here where they are selling their name but have nothing to do with the actual business.  This is not a good sign for Nokia.  They are literally selling their name to company, who as you point out, has a bad reputation.  Why would a company do that if not desperate?

[DAlter01]

3 minutes ago, apostolakisl said:

To paraphrase Danny DeVito, the last company to make buggy whips probably made the best buggy whips around . . .  I don't want to pay money for that buggy whip company name either.  Blackberry made a good device, they failed.  Nokia sounds like they are playing the Sears game here where they are selling their name but have nothing to do with the actual business.  This is not a good sign for Nokia.  They are literally selling their name to company, who as you point out, has a bad reputation.  Why would a company do that if not desperate?

Because in life you march forward, you take calculated risks, you work to improve.  You do not go pout in a corner when one of your lines of business (of which there are many for Nokia) declines.  Your comments make it sound like the only thing Nokia ever built was a cell phone.  It was a big portion of their business years ago but is no longer.  Yet, the company has grown back from its roots in 1865 and continues to grow and they are a signficant company with nearly 100,000 employees in over 100 countries.  If the Smartlabs experiment succeeds or fails it will not be signficant to Nokia.  But, they made the calculation it was worth the risk.

It sounds like more of their calculated risks have paid off more than most companies.  Desperate??? Yeah, No, don't think so.

[DAlter01]

35 minutes ago, apostolakisl said:

To paraphrase Danny DeVito, the last company to make buggy whips probably made the best buggy whips around . . .  I don't want to pay money for that buggy whip company name either.  Blackberry made a good device, they failed.  Nokia sounds like they are playing the Sears game here where they are selling their name but have nothing to do with the actual business.  This is not a good sign for Nokia.  They are literally selling their name to company, who as you point out, has a bad reputation.  Why would a company do that if not desperate?

Is Ford's name not worth anything to you because they no longer make the Thunderbird?  That car was a success for many years yet it's demand declined and was eventually discontinued.  Going along the lines of thought in your posts, Ford is now a "failed" company or desperate? 

You move forward, you take calculated risks, you take a step in a new direction.  Ford and Nokia have done well over the years.  I too have a company, take risks, etc.  It seems Ford and Nokia have done better than my company despite me thinking I've done well.  Like Ford, like Nokia, like my company, we evolve to the environment, create new things with fresh ideas, or go after an existing business segment with a new approach.  But, I guess I'm just a failure, my company has a bad reputation and I'm desperate because everything my company has ever done didn't work perfectly, we changed course, and my business has evolved to sometimes more lucrative and sometimes less lucrative avenues as it has grown?  From my seat, it doesn't look like a failure, maybe to you it does. 

Nokia is a success.  Will the partnership with Smartlabs be a success, we don't know.  I'm thinking it will be a financial success which is the metric that matters to Smartlabs and Nokia.  Will the technology take over the industry and be around for 30 years, No, but if that is your definition of success than your views are different than an investor's/companiy's definition.

[lilyoyo1]

31 minutes ago, DAlter01 said:

Because in life you march forward, you take calculated risks, you work to improve.  You do not go pout in a corner when one of your lines of business (of which there are many for Nokia) declines.  Your comments make it sound like the only thing Nokia ever built was a cell phone.  It was a big portion of their business years ago but is no longer.  Yet, the company has grown back from its roots in 1865 and continues to grow and they are a signficant company with nearly 100,000 employees in over 100 countries.  If the Smartlabs experiment succeeds or fails it will not be signficant to Nokia.  But, they made the calculation it was worth the risk.

It sounds like more of their calculated risks have paid off more than most companies.  Desperate??? Yeah, No, don't think so.

You hit the nail on the head. Most people do not realize how many failures businesses endure in order to make money. They have their core businesses then they branch out to other things to see if they can grow in those spaces. 

It doesn't matter if it's Apple, Sony Samsung, LG, Amazon, or anyone else. These are billion dollar companies for a reason. 

[apostolakisl]

25 minutes ago, DAlter01 said:

Is Ford's name not worth anything to you because they no longer make the Thunderbird?  That car was a success for many years yet it's demand declined and was eventually discontinued.  Going along the lines of thought in your posts, Ford is now a "failed" company or desperate? 

You move forward, you take calculated risks, you take a step in a new direction.  Ford and Nokia have done well over the years.  I too have a company, take risks, etc.  It seems Ford and Nokia have done better than my company despite me thinking I've done well.  Like Ford, like Nokia, like my company, we evolve to the environment, create new things with fresh ideas, or go after an existing business segment with a new approach.  But, I guess I'm just a failure, my company has a bad reputation and I'm desperate because everything my company has ever done didn't work perfectly, we changed course, and my business has evolved to sometimes more lucrative and sometimes less lucrative avenues as it has grown?  From my seat, it doesn't look like a failure, maybe to you it does. 

Nokia is a success.  Will the partnership with Smartlabs be a success, we don't know.  I'm thinking it will be a financial success which is the metric that matters to Smartlabs and Nokia.  Will the technology take over the industry and be around for 30 years, No, but if that is your definition of success than your views are different than an investor's/companiy's definition.

That is a rediculous analogy.  That would be like saying Apple is a failure because they don't make the iphone 3 anymore.  Let me ask you this, would Apple ever, ever, in a million years, let some completely independent company put the Apple brand on their product?  Nokia apparently is willing to sell their name to a company, that as has been mentioned, does not have a good reputation.  Nokia isn't fixing this company, they aren't buying the technology and bringing it in house.  They are, it would appear, charging some money for their name.  This is a sure sign of a company that is not in good shape.   

[larryllix]

3 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

You hit the nail on the head. Most people do not realize how many failures businesses endure in order to make money. They have their core businesses then they branch out to other things to see if they can grow in those spaces. 

It doesn't matter if it's Apple, Sony Samsung, LG, Amazon, or anyone else. These are billion dollar companies for a reason. 

AS North Americans we tend to only see the world in our own environment. Many companies are huge in EurAsia and not so big in N.Am., tainting our perception.

I wouldn't call RIM or Nokia a failure. They were big and successful with their products at one time but technology changed and they chose not to stay up with it. Many had a change of managers and grew tired of the fight and drive needed. Failure?  depends on your point of view.

OTOH Ford could be called a failure. They didn't give up willingly, or change concepts, they were just surpassed by the competition. The market rejected them despite trying their best to make a profit.  I am aware of two class action suits they have already paid out, due to being caught knowingly/purposely producing a bad product. There may be more legal suits yet. They just don't care about their product quality or customers. I don't see that same attitude for Nokia or RIM. Insteon? the jury is still out.

I know one thing. Almost every Insteon product I have touched, has outlasted almost every Ford product I have ever seen in Canada.

Maybe just semantics?

[DAlter01]

14 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

You hit the nail on the head. Most people do not realize how many failures businesses endure in order to make money. They have their core businesses then they branch out to other things to see if they can grow in those spaces. 

It doesn't matter if it's Apple, Sony Samsung, LG, Amazon, or anyone else. These are billion dollar companies for a reason. 

I'm thinking those at Nokia think they are a success and their competitors undoubtedly think they are a success.  Did their day in the sun with cell phones pass, yes, so what.  Do they hit grand slams on everything, of course not.  Did they make money, their financial reports show they did, and lots of it. 

One could even say the same for Smartlabs.  Have they made mistakes, yes, big ones.  But, it seems it is a success.  It has developed a working technology that has benefited (or frustrated) hundreds of thousands, provided employment to many, and a few years ago was sold for many millions.  That is a success.  With different steps could it have been a bigger success, of course.  Could some of the ideas from people on this forum, if implmented, made Smartlabs a bigger success, yes.  Then again, some of the ideas might have been helpful to the technology or the end user but would have been harmful (financially) to the company.  

Richmond Capital Partners and Nokia intends to make money with the new line of product and to milk the old line for cash flow without putting more invesment dollars in the old line.  Their business plan will adapt and evolve but I suspect Richmond Capital's plan is not to own any of it 5-10 years from now.  If they are successfull in developing a viable business model and prove to deeper pockets there is demand for their new product, I suspect they will package it up and sell it off to a company that will take the technology to its next stage of evolution which will be either enhancement or just cash flowing it till its dealth.  That company may be Nokia, but will likely be another outside player that will continue the naming license with Nokia.  Both avenues (develop the business or cash flow it) are commonly seen in the business world.  And, both can be successful financially which is the metric that matters to the company/investors.

We, on this forum, often point to success as having the tech be able to do everything we want it to do and that it will never sunset a product that we find useful/helpful.  That doesn't meet the definition of success for a company/investor.  Most of us are power users and what we want sometimes isn't in the best interest of the company financially, that's the harsh reality.