Insteon being discontinued?

[MrBill]

55 minutes ago, apostolakisl said:

This explains a lot.  

I tried to explain the same thing to you much earlier in this thread.

[apostolakisl]

1 hour ago, MrBill said:

I tried to explain the same thing to you much earlier in this thread.

This only explains the how this match made in heaven came to be.  It doesn't justify it or make it a good thing.  Sprint and Radio Shack analogy, I'm going to call SmartLabs Radio Shack.

[lilyoyo1]

1 hour ago, MrBill said:

I tried to explain the same thing to you much earlier in this thread.

Why do you even bother?

[DAlter01]

1 hour ago, apostolakisl said:

This only explains the how this match made in heaven came to be.  It doesn't justify it or make it a good thing.  Sprint and Radio Shack analogy, I'm going to call SmartLabs Radio Shack.

I'm guessing you would view a half a glass of water as half empty rather than viewing it as half full.  But, in fact, Nokia isn't a failure nor is Rob.  Those are facts.  While this venture may fail, since it hasn't failed and its launch isn't until later this month, it might be a bit early to view the glass as half empty.  It is, in fact, just a half a glass of water, neither positve or negative.  But it has been designed and managed by people/companies that have a history of success so to view the venture negatively already is premature.

Lets see what the product looks like, lets see how they intend to promote it, sell it, and if it functions well.  After that we all can have justifiable opinions.  But, at present, the only one who has seen and used the product is @lilyoyo1 and he gives it a favorable report.  It takes more than looks and fuction to make it a success such as promotion and a good sales and distribution program, but we don't know what those are yet.  So, its just a bit early to form a negative opinion (in my opinion).     

[apostolakisl]

6 minutes ago, DAlter01 said:

I'm guessing you would view a half a glass of water as half empty rather than viewing it as half full.  But, in fact, Nokia isn't a failure nor is Rob.  Those are facts.  While this venture may fail, since it hasn't failed and its launch isn't until later this month, it might be a bit early to view the glass as half empty.  It is, in fact, just a half a glass of water, neither positve or negative.  But it has been designed and managed by people/companies that have a history of success so to view the venture negatively already is premature.

Lets see what the product looks like, lets see how they intend to promote it, sell it, and if it functions well.  After that we all can have justifiable opinions.  But, at present, the only one who has seen and used the product is @lilyoyo1 and he gives it a favorable report.  It takes more than looks and fuction to make it a success such as promotion and a good sales and distribution program, but we don't know what those are yet.  So, its just a bit early to form a negative opinion (in my opinion).     

The glass is not half anything.  It is mostly empty.  Just look at the situation both of these companies are in.  Both are struggling.  Nokia just did a major re-organization and terminated thousands of employees.  Market share and gross down year after year.  Stock is going nowhere and no one is bringing in any cash.  SmartLabs has been going sideways for a decade.  Perhaps by some miracle the re-organization will work, it did for Dell, but usually these things just putter along until someone buys up the parts.  And really, Dell did get bought up when Michael put together a bunch of cash and took it private.  Similar to when Apple brought Jobs back in.  If Nokia finds themselves a visionary like Jobs or Michael Dell, then maybe.  But those people are rare.

[DAlter01]

5 minutes ago, apostolakisl said:

The glass is not half anything.  It is mostly empty.  Just look at the situation both of these companies are in.  Both are struggling.  Nokia just did a major re-organization and terminated thousands of employees.  Market share and gross down year after year.  Stock is going nowhere and no one is bringing in any cash.  SmartLabs has been going sideways for a decade.  Perhaps by some miracle the re-organization will work, it did for Dell, but usually these things just putter along until someone buys up the parts.  And really, Dell did get bought up when Michael put together a bunch of cash and took it private.  Similar to when Apple brought Jobs back in.  If Nokia finds themselves a visionary like Jobs or Michael Dell, then maybe.  But those people are rare.

Confirmed

[lilyoyo1]

7 minutes ago, apostolakisl said:

The glass is not half anything.  It is mostly empty.  Just look at the situation both of these companies are in.  Both are struggling.  Nokia just did a major re-organization and terminated thousands of employees.  Market share and gross down year after year.  Stock is going nowhere and no one is bringing in any cash.  SmartLabs has been going sideways for a decade.  Perhaps by some miracle the re-organization will work, it did for Dell, but usually these things just putter along until someone buys up the parts.  And really, Dell did get bought up when Michael put together a bunch of cash and took it private.  Similar to when Apple brought Jobs back in.  If Nokia finds themselves a visionary like Jobs or Michael Dell, then maybe.  But those people are rare.

At&t terminates thousands of employees every year. Are they going anywhere? 

[apostolakisl]

2 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

At&t terminates thousands of employees every year. Are they going anywhere? 

NO!!!  ATT sucks too.  Losing customers, making bad decisions all the time.  Too big to fail is all they got going.  

[lilyoyo1]

32 minutes ago, DAlter01 said:

I'm guessing you would view a half a glass of water as half empty rather than viewing it as half full.  But, in fact, Nokia isn't a failure nor is Rob.  Those are facts.  While this venture may fail, since it hasn't failed and its launch isn't until later this month, it might be a bit early to view the glass as half empty.  It is, in fact, just a half a glass of water, neither positve or negative.  But it has been designed and managed by people/companies that have a history of success so to view the venture negatively already is premature.

Lets see what the product looks like, lets see how they intend to promote it, sell it, and if it functions well.  After that we all can have justifiable opinions.  But, at present, the only one who has seen and used the product is @lilyoyo1 and he gives it a favorable report.  It takes more than looks and fuction to make it a success such as promotion and a good sales and distribution program, but we don't know what those are yet.  So, its just a bit early to form a negative opinion (in my opinion).     

This is what gets me. All these comments yet  no one knows anything about the devices. Not a single person can say how they work, what they're capable of, how they feel, response etc. Yet downing it like they simply put a different faceplate on it. 

As I said in an earlier post, I'm hesitant to criticize business people. Especially those much more successful than I. While I'm sure rRob has his own failures, it speaks volumes that the man is a high level multi millionaire unlike us through his business decisions.

[upstatemike]

1 hour ago, DAlter01 said:

I'm guessing you would view a half a glass of water as half empty rather than viewing it as half full. 

I view it as a glass that is twice as large as it needed to be and therefore a poor decision.

[apostolakisl]

2 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said:

This is what gets me. All these comments yet  no one knows anything about the devices. Not a single person can say how they work, what they're capable of, how they feel, response etc. Yet downing it like they simply put a different faceplate on it. 

As I said in an earlier post, I'm hesitant to criticize business people. Especially those much more successful than I. While I'm sure rRob has his own failures, it speaks volumes that the man is a high level multi millionaire unlike us through his business decisions.

The actual devices are somewhat irrelevant.  Lots of devices out there with pros and cons and frankly, I don't think any of them are obvious winners strictly on the merits of the device.  The one that wins is going to be the one that convinces the public they are the one.  I don't see where Nokia holds that swing.

[lilyoyo1]

3 hours ago, apostolakisl said:

NO!!!  ATT sucks too.  Losing customers, making bad decisions all the time.  Too big to fail is all they got going.  

Funny how you down all these multi billion dollar companies suck and are failures but they're still multi billion dollar companies that's here to stay for the foreseeable future. They must be doing something right otherwise we'd be at their level as well

[auger66]

16 hours ago, asbril said:

We are only at the beginning of home automation.........

I thought that, too, after my first X-10 installation. I haven't seen a lot of progress.

But I'm very happy with the six Insteon/ISY systems I have going. All of them are fairly basic. Nothing the ISY can't handle on a really easy day.

But my personal system is more complicated. Someone remarked a few posts back about Smarhome's extensive product line. I used a lot of the less popular devices that are no longer available. My current place that I did a gut renovation on is perfect with all the Insteon devices I had back then. Most of them aren't available now.

Unexpectedly, I'm thinking about moving. The problem is I can't redo a new place like this one because the Insteon parts just aren't available. And I really like how everything is working now with the ISY/Polisy/Insteon/Hue/Somfy/Alexa. Nest on Polisy is abandonware now, but Alexa routines have filled that gap nicely. My place is essentially perfect, but I can't replicate it now.

[DAlter01]

9 hours ago, apostolakisl said:

The actual devices are somewhat irrelevant.  Lots of devices out there with pros and cons and frankly, I don't think any of them are obvious winners strictly on the merits of the device.  The one that wins is going to be the one that convinces the public they are the one.  I don't see where Nokia holds that swing.

And, in your view what company has this magic elixer of being able to be the "winner"?  And, what is winning anyway.  The company is trying to make a profit which is likely their definition of success.  While they could end up "winning" which I guess means being the dominant devices in the industry, that isn't necessarily profitable and therefore not necessarily the objective.    

There are companies that look to be No 1 in an industry by volume and take losses along the way thinking they will eventually leverage that position to make larger profits later.  Sometimes that works, sometimes that doesn't.   There is a junkyard full of failed companies that thought volume was the secret to success but the business model failed for hundreds of different reasons.  There are also companies that look to be No 1 by offering a superior product/service but the product just costs too much and never gains enough volume and the company eventually fails, again for any number of reasons.  This happens a lot too.

Lastly, is there a limit where there can be only one "winner" in the space?  If winning is being hugely profitable, then, no, there isn't. 

The Smartlabs/Nokia partnership has the necessary ingrediants to be a winner if we are defining that as being hugely profitable.  Will they pick the right path to make that happen, maybe, maybe not, we may or may not ever know.   Will it be a product that us, on this forum, will want to use for integration?  Maybe, maybe not, but that isn't the only path to "winning"  being hugely profitable.

[larryllix]

11 hours ago, upstatemike said:

I view it as a glass that is twice as large as it needed to be and therefore a poor decision.

Yeah, The half empty glass being an optimist view is a relative thing.  Of course an optimist thinks it is half empty when trying to empty it. A pessimist would think it is still half full.

[DAlter01]

5 hours ago, auger66 said:

I thought that, too, after my first X-10 installation. I haven't seen a lot of progress.

But I'm very happy with the six Insteon/ISY systems I have going. All of them are fairly basic. Nothing the ISY can't handle on a really easy day.

But my personal system is more complicated. Someone remarked a few posts back about Smarhome's extensive product line. I used a lot of the less popular devices that are no longer available. My current place that I did a gut renovation on is perfect with all the Insteon devices I had back then. Most of them aren't available now.

Unexpectedly, I'm thinking about moving. The problem is I can't redo a new place like this one because the Insteon parts just aren't available. And I really like how everything is working now with the ISY/Polisy/Insteon/Hue/Somfy/Alexa. Nest on Polisy is abandonware now, but Alexa routines have filled that gap nicely. My place is essentially perfect, but I can't replicate it now.

The marketplace is maturing and the product lines are narrowing down to those products that have proven to be profitable with the elimination of those products that have proven to not be profitable.  At least they tried these low volume products to see if they could make them profitably.  I commend them for stepping up and trying it.

I think the marketplace has voted with their dollars showing that not enough people needed the niche items.  I have a number of them in my house too and would hate to give up the unique use I've gained by having it.  But, of the devices I have, those niche items are less than 2% of the total devices.  If your place is similar, I think you can see why a product that sells so little to even power users will likely not be a profitable product.

Edited September 11, 2021 by DAlter01

[MrBill]

12 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said:

At&t terminates thousands of employees every year. Are they going anywhere? 

right back at ya.... same question that you asked me above....?

I had no idea how much popcorn I'd need for this thread....

 

Edited September 11, 2021 by MrBill

[larryllix]

4 minutes ago, MrBill said:

right back at ya.... same question that you asked me above....?

I had no idea how much popcorn I'd need for this thread....

 

I prefer real butter to that artificial stuff in the photo. Way too yellow.

hmmmmm...any flavour sprinkles? It doesn't sell much, but it sure sells the popcorn!

[MrBill]

5 minutes ago, larryllix said:

I prefer real butter to that artificial stuff in the photo. Way too yellow.

hmmmmm...any flavour sprinkles? It doesn't sell much, but it sure sells the popcorn!

we only use real butter here...

the pic on the other hand is simply an internet stock photo used to illustrate a concept.

[larryllix]

On 9/10/2021 at 3:14 PM, asbril said:

Would Polisy be able to have both Zwave and Zigbee (unlike ISY) ?

Looks like ZigBee will be the next protocol to be big!

Many companies have gotten together to support the new ZigBee styles. The technology looks very good and the standards are starting to be well supported. amazon is one of the later one to jump on board with their router access points supporting ZigBee. It has been used with different frequencies around the world but 2.4GHz has been the most common in North America, so far. That makes it compatible with existing WiFi equipment and easy to support the mesh network it already provides.

With router support, polisy would not even need a USB dongle to support ZigBee. Philips Hue lights shouldn't need their Hub anymore. Zigbee items sold on amazon.ca comprise many different sensors and the prices are typically half to 3/4 of what Insteon devices or good Zwave devices sell for.  Well worth considering as ZigBee appears to have all it's ducks in line to be the next HA protocol of choice.

I may attempt to skip the Zwave "fad", phase out Insteon and WiFi devices as they die,  to ZigBee, polisy interface support dependent, of course. ZigBee has an excellent track record for commercial applications. The lack of good standards has kept it mostly proprietary, and out of the reach of HA, in the past.

[upstatemike]

16 minutes ago, larryllix said:

Looks like ZigBee will be the next protocol to be big!

Many companies have gotten together to support the new ZigBee styles. The technology looks very good and the standards are starting to be well supported. amazon is one of the later one to jump on board with their router access points supporting ZigBee. It has been used with different frequencies around the world but 2.4GHz has been the most common in North America, so far. That makes it compatible with existing WiFi equipment and easy to support the mesh network it already provides.

With router support, polisy would not even need a USB dongle to support ZigBee. Philips Hue lights shouldn't need their Hub anymore. Zigbee items sold on amazon.ca comprise many different sensors and the prices are typically half to 3/4 of what Insteon devices or good Zwave devices sell for.  Well worth considering as ZigBee appears to have all it's ducks in line to be the next HA protocol of choice.

I may attempt to skip the Zwave "fad", phase out Insteon and WiFi devices as they die,  to ZigBee, polisy interface support dependent, of course. ZigBee has an excellent track record for commercial applications. The lack of good standards has kept it mostly proprietary, and out of the reach of HA, in the past.

I also note while there are tons of cheap Zigbee sensors I haven't seen any premium looking Zigbee switches to compete with the Zooz and Innovelli offerings in the Z-Wave world. Also not clear what options Zigbee offers for direct device associations so things keep working whilen your router is down (or just really busy). And don't forget that Z-Wave isn't standing still. There is Z-Wave Long Range on the horizon.

The real question is what is going to be compatible with Tuya Smartlife? I don't think Nokia/Insteon will be so that will slow its adoption. I have heard of Zigbee support in Tuya but I don't know the details of how that works. I think globally Tuya is just too pervasive and too easy for consumers to use for it to be ignored by any emerging product or protocol.

 

[larryllix]

17 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

I also note while there are tons of cheap Zigbee sensors I haven't seen any premium looking Zigbee switches to compete with the Zooz and Innovelli offerings in the Z-Wave world. Also not clear what options Zigbee offers for direct device associations so things keep working whilen your router is down (or just really busy). And don't forget that Z-Wave isn't standing still. There is Z-Wave Long Range on the horizon.

The real question is what is going to be compatible with Tuya Smartlife? I don't think Nokia/Insteon will be so that will slow its adoption. I have heard of Zigbee support in Tuya but I don't know the details of how that works. I think globally Tuya is just too pervasive and too easy for consumers to use for it to be ignored by any emerging product or protocol.

 

You may be right. With some more research it seems the ZigBee hubs are still keeping proprietary protocols to themselves. Most are stating they are only compatible with their own brand devices However I think that is starting to change (hope..hope)

This was another recent discovery that could jolt some of the market. May resolve two parts of voice control in one not bad looking box for the plug'n play masses. Now add the (Nokia? ) clock? A bit pricey yet, but amazon has sales occasionally.
https://www.amazon.ca/echo-4th-gen/dp/B07XKF75B8/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=echo+plus&qid=1631539856&sr=8-2

 

[upstatemike]

41 minutes ago, larryllix said:

You may be right. With some more research it seems the ZigBee hubs are still keeping proprietary protocols to themselves. Most are stating they are only compatible with their own brand devices However I think that is starting to change (hope..hope)

This was another recent discovery that could jolt some of the market. May resolve two parts of voice control in one not bad looking box for the plug'n play masses. Now add the (Nokia? ) clock? A bit pricey yet, but amazon has sales occasionally.
https://www.amazon.ca/echo-4th-gen/dp/B07XKF75B8/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=echo+plus&qid=1631539856&sr=8-2

 

I have tried using Echos for multi-room music and found them to be unreliable. Any little network glitch can make a room drop or mess up the sync. If they struggle with that I don't know as I would want to rely on them as the backbone for lighting control.

[MrBill]

44 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

I have tried using Echos for multi-room music and found them to be unreliable. Any little network glitch can make a room drop or mess up the sync

I used to have one room that would drop off the while playing on the "everywhere" group.  It was the newest of the echos.  All Amazon ever said was factory reset it... blah blah...   I eventually noticed that it was joining via the 5Ghz network (I have separate SSID's) while the other 7 devices were joining the 2.4ghz network (because they were older and only had 2.4). 

Eventually i figured out how to delete the stored wifi passwords in the amazon cloud (kinda of pisses me off that they store that even if it is non-reversible encryption) then added it back at 2.4ghz... now since all are using the same multicast wifi signal it works as expected and doesn't drop out.

[upstatemike]

7 minutes ago, MrBill said:

I used to have one room that would drop off the while playing on the "everywhere" group.  It was the newest of the echos.  All Amazon ever said was factory reset it... blah blah...   I eventually noticed that it was joining via the 5Ghz network (I have separate SSID's) while the other 7 devices were joining the 2.4ghz network (because they were older and only had 2.4). 

Eventually i figured out how to delete the stored wifi passwords in the amazon cloud (kinda of pisses me off that they store that even if it is non-reversible encryption) then added it back at 2.4ghz... now since all are using the same multicast wifi signal it works as expected and doesn't drop out.

They seem to struggle when you have them connecting to different access points. Also it hard to force them onto a single SSID if you have ever used with a different one. The device basically needs to be removed from the account and the Echo hardware factory reset so you can start over, otherwise old network info persists in the device and can pop back into use at any time. All in all way more network expertise required than most folks have or want to deal with.