Insteon being discontinued?

[MrBill]

1 minute ago, upstatemike said:

otherwise old network info persists in the device and can pop back into use at any time.

it worse than that.. you have to find the link (and I've forgotten where it is) in  your amazon account to delete stored wifi passwords.  

I hadn't thought about multiple AP networks tho, we are fortunate that one covers the whole house and yard (I may never "upgrade" the network because I don't think they make them like this anymore)

[upstatemike]

I also think Amazon has a limit of 11 zones for music sync. Not an issue for many but certainly is for me.

Edited September 13, 2021 by upstatemike

[larryllix]

2 hours ago, upstatemike said:

I have tried using Echos for multi-room music and found them to be unreliable. Any little network glitch can make a room drop or mess up the sync. If they struggle with that I don't know as I would want to rely on them as the backbone for lighting control.

That is a good point but I don't listen to group speaker played music much and what @MrBillposted above about matching bands is true from what I have seen.  Most of the time they won't arbitrate properly and a bunch will answer. I would think synchro via multiple devices from the cloud would be difficult to say the least.

However, I would think we are dealing with a LAN only bridging style technique and hopefully that would not be passed through cloud bogs or monitoring. Of course it is probably designed with all cloud commands being passed through their bridge, in mind .

I guess time will tell but with ZigBee they are not the only game in town, either. Amazon has installed Zigbee into their routers and their Alexa devices as well. It sounds like they have some big plans there. ...on top of that they have to have an iron in the fire ASAP, to compete against the repressive "rotten to the core" systems too.

[Michel Kohanim]

The best and only standard is Node Server on Secure IP. The rest are all regurgitations and/or permutations of the same old thinking: the system must know all the intricate details of each and every device. So, for instance, iRobot is not a profile that's supported by Matter. Nor is Ring. Nor is a smart meter, solar panel, battery, EV, a toilet, climate services, an oven or a fridge. At least not yet, and - if history is any indication - this process is going take ages till the next standard comes becomes a buzz.  

I vote for Node Servers ?.

With kind regards,
Michel

[MrBill]

16 minutes ago, larryllix said:

That is a good point but I don't listen to group speaker played music much and what @MrBillposted above about matching bands is true from what I have seen.  Most of the time they won't arbitrate properly and a bunch will answer. I would think synchro via multiple devices from the cloud would be difficult to say the least.

However, I would think we are dealing with a LAN only bridging style technique and hopefully that would not be passed through cloud bogs or monitoring. Of course it is probably designed with all cloud commands being passed through their bridge, in mind .

The music stream uses Multicast and works very well when all devices have the same AP.  We listen to music on an echo whole house "Everywhere group" all day everyday.... works beautifully.

[larryllix]

25 minutes ago, Michel Kohanim said:

The best and only standard is Node Server on Secure IP. The rest are all regurgitations and/or permutations of the same old thinking: the system must know all the intricate details of each and every device. So, for instance, iRobot is not a profile that's supported by Matter. Nor is Ring. Nor is a smart meter, solar panel, battery, EV, a toilet, climate services, an oven or a fridge. At least not yet, and - if history is any indication - this process is going take ages till the next standard comes becomes a buzz.  

I vote for Node Servers ?.

With kind regards,
Michel

Thanks. Your post got buried but I happened across it.

I am being told by ZigBee enthusiasts elsewhere that ZigBee now has standards that many brands are using and fully compatible now, for HA anyway. Of course the OCD ZigBee people would report that but the Wikipedia article tends to agree with it and the some standards have been around longer than Insteon.???

I guess we need brave testors / scouts before making any jumps. The Hubs are mostly claiming proprietary while the consortium people (routers and generaic hubs) are claiming most brands.

[Michel Kohanim]

@larryllix,

How does one make a standard for robotic vacuum cleaners and all their variations? And, how about EVs? Just look at our Tesla node server (remote cool/heat/preheat/schedule etc.). And, should all EVs support the properties/functions as Tesla? Or, a subset? Ovens? Refrigerators? A Robot?

Zigbee profiles have been promising the same thing for over 15 years. When they couldn't, it became Thread, then Dot.Dot, and now it's Matter. which, doesn't matter.

With kind regards,
Michel

[upstatemike]

It seems like a standard should be like a template. For any class of item there should be a known set of things to measure or control so those get defined in the template and everybody uses them the same way. If something new comes along the template gets expanded so everybody can use the new stuff in the same way. Why has it been so hard to implement this?

[Michel Kohanim]

@upstatemike,

That's precisely how it is now and precisely what I am suggesting against, because it only works for simple things. When you get more complex, then things get complicated really quickly. Can you come up with template for Ring? As a camera? a motion sensor? A doorbell? A composite of all? How about iRobot? A broom? A vacuum cleaner? A moving robot with a docking station? An EV (it's an electric vehicle albeit small)?

With kind regards,
Michel

[upstatemike]

38 minutes ago, Michel Kohanim said:

@upstatemike,

That's precisely how it is now and precisely what I am suggesting against, because it only works for simple things. When you get more complex, then things get complicated really quickly. Can you come up with template for Ring? As a camera? a motion sensor? A doorbell? A composite of all? How about iRobot? A broom? A vacuum cleaner? A moving robot with a docking station? An EV (it's an electric vehicle albeit small)?

With kind regards,
Michel

Ring is not a thing it is a brand. If they sell cameras they should use the defined camera template. If they also sell doorbells they should follow the doorbell template. If they insist on creating their own way of doing things they should be shunned and excluded from all mainstream HA connectivity.

[DAlter01]

1 hour ago, upstatemike said:

It seems like a standard should be like a template. For any class of item there should be a known set of things to measure or control so those get defined in the template and everybody uses them the same way. If something new comes along the template gets expanded so everybody can use the new stuff in the same way. Why has it been so hard to implement this?

Ford brakes to be made to fit a Chevrolet is similar to having standardized internal electonric signal protocols.  Coordination like that is never going to happen between companies looking to make the best product they can for the least amount of money.  Spending time/money on something like that will provide a negative return to their bottom line.  Unless mandated, it will not happen.  The buyer pool looking for a feature like that is very tiny compared to their overall buyer pool.  Therefore, they cannot justify the cost increase they would incur to make it happen.

[Michel Kohanim]

@upstatemike, haven't you seen a Ring doorbell? It's a combination of everything I mentioned and I even forgot to include intercom.

22 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

If they insist on creating their own way of doing things they should be shunned and excluded from all mainstream HA connectivity.

O Lord ... I shall take a deep breath and take the 5th.

With kind regards,
Michel

[lilyoyo1]

1 hour ago, upstatemike said:

It seems like a standard should be like a template. For any class of item there should be a known set of things to measure or control so those get defined in the template and everybody uses them the same way. If something new comes along the template gets expanded so everybody can use the new stuff in the same way. Why has it been so hard to implement this?

A few reasons. In addition to what Michel said, i think it's financial. There simply isn't any money in standards. If everyone is doing the same exact thing, how much can you really charge for your product. Why would anyone take the time and resources needed to develop a full line of devices only to be undercut on price by individual companies doing the same exact thing?

Let's say a company does that but in order to make a profit, they have to sell each device for 50 bucks. What's stopping another company from utilizing those same standards to develop 1 product in your line that they sell for 20 bucks? Then another company comes behind them and does the same for another product. Then so forth and so forth on down the line. How much will you make long term and would it be enough to stay in business? 

Take refrigerators. When it comes to standard designs, those fridges are cheap. The most expensive ones will add their own flair to separate themselves from the crowd. What would end up happening with a standard is, the cheaper guys will follow it, but those with big budgets will still break them because they can such as Samsung. Do you really think Samsung, LG, or Kitchen Aide will follow standards that cheaper competitors follow? In the high end market, what the likelihood that Miele or Sub Zero will do the same?

Automation has gone from only a certain segment of society having it to anyone can have and do. Standards would take things back to the haves and have nots as those who follow standards will have 1 set of capabilities while those who do their own thing will have another, much better setup

Edited September 13, 2021 by lilyoyo1

[larryllix]

50 minutes ago, Michel Kohanim said:

@upstatemike, haven't you seen a Ring doorbell? It's a combination of everything I mentioned and I even forgot to include intercom.

O Lord ... I shall take a deep breath and take the 5th.

With kind regards,
Michel

LOL!

TCP/IP is a standard protocol also and we address all kinds of variations, and all using the same protocol. It is only a mid-level  protocol layer. Early ZigBee is the same, the way I read it.

Many are claiming the connectivity is with thousands of device now. I am not a protocol expert by any means but have a look at the Connectivity Standards Alliance webpage making huge claims. Many devices being sold on amazon also claim similar experiences.
https://zigbeealliance.org/solution/zigbee/

[Teken]

I believe people are losing sight of what is being asked as it pertains to STANDARDS. The entire world follows millions of standards and it has not stopped anyone from innovating or become dominant in their respective field / industry.

If NEC / CEC didn’t exist electrical installation methods would vary and safety would be compromised.

If everyone didn’t follow, design, and build their equipment to use TCP/IP there would literally be no internet.

All motor vehicles are tested and mandated to achieve a minimum standard of emissions, crash safety, and fuel consumption.

Almost every nation in the world uses the metric standard!

The UL / cUL standard was created to insure products were safe and met specifications in what ever class they sell in.

Every ship sold today must comply and meet global Standards as it pertains to single / double hull designs never mind the millions of other standards to allow them in the water or allowed to enter a foreign port.

The following standards were created to insure anything connected would operate as expected: HDMI, USB, VGA, RS-232, RS-485, RCA, Coaxial, 120 / 240 VAC, etc

There are millions of standards as listed up above and NONE of them has stopped anyone from making profit or owning a market segment!

What some of the forum members are asking and questioning is why hasn’t the same been done for HA?!?

It’s easy for me to say because I’ve had to work with some of these companies / industries.

Plain greed . . .

Next, is wanting control think Crapple. Think Microsoft, Google, Facebook etc.

It has always been Profit before People!

As it relates to say a video system there are you guessed it - Standards! Which allows anything to Plug & Play which is championed by ONVIF!

Any door bell, intercom, security camera that complies with ONVIF will offer basic to advanced features and literally just connects to one another without fuss!

Video compression such as H.264 / H.265 which you guess based on STANDARDS is what allows us to stream, watch, record video in 2K / 4K / 8K without taking down the entire network - internet.

If the various audio compression methods such as MP3, FLAC, name any of the dozens used in every industry didn’t exist we could not listen to audio.

If the FCC / CRTC Standards didn’t exist there would be literally no TV, Radio, Cellular, Home Automation, nothing.

Groups like Z-Wave / ZigBee alliance have tried to bring everyone together. But some went a different direction because their standards were utterly sh^t!

Anyone who has ever had the displeasure of owning Z-Wave knows this! ZigBee has to be one of the worst in large part to having people in power that take 9999999 years to decide on anything!

This is why sometimes governments must force everyone to follow basic standards as I listed up above. Then everyone can build upon that basic standard and iterate as technology advances or knowledge is gained.

The NEC / CEC / UL / cUL didn’t remain the same over the course of 60 years. It continued to iterate and change as science and experience showed how things could be made safer and better.

Think of the first of anything from tires, light bulbs, steel, plastics, IC.

So no, it’s not hard to have a template that everyone follows so everything works! This has been proven by every idiot thing connected to the so called Cloud - You guessed it following no less than 50 standards to get that POS Ring to operate!

[Michel Kohanim]

@larryllix,

TCP/IP is a communication protocol (there are other layers below). HTTP runs on top of TCP/IP as an application layer protocol. Neither TCP/IP nor HTTP define HTML, JSON, XMLRPC, SOAP, WebSocket, etc. (content). On the other hand, Zigbee/Matter/Dot.Dot/Thread/Zigbee3.0 want to define EVERYTHING. 

With kind regards,
Michel

[upstatemike]

1 hour ago, Michel Kohanim said:

@upstatemike, haven't you seen a Ring doorbell? It's a combination of everything I mentioned and I even forgot to include intercom.

O Lord ... I shall take a deep breath and take the 5th.

With kind regards,
Michel

As far as integration is concerned it is just a camera and a button and an intercom. They need to follow the api standard for each part they are using in their product. Ring doesn't actually do any of those functions very well so I am unlikely to ever use their products anyway.

[larryllix]

When amazon, Google, and Apple get together and define a standard and have 2000 products that work on it now or coming soon, for HA, I think there is a boat leaving soon.

It will likely be in the form of a NS for ISY. We have a few NS already??? well at least one that services Philips Hue hubs.

[Michel Kohanim]

@Teken,

No one is disputing what you are saying (or at least, I am not). By the way of an analogy, what I am trying to convey is that there are no standards for a complete car.

With kind regards,
Michel

[lilyoyo1]

3 minutes ago, Teken said:

I believe people are losing sight of what is being asked as it pertains to STANDARDS. The entire world follows millions of standards and it has not stopped anyone from innovating or become dominant in their respective field / industry.

If NEC / CEC didn’t exist electrical installation methods would vary and safety would be compromised.

If everyone didn’t follow, design, and build their equipment to use TCP/IP there would literally be no internet.

All motor vehicles are tested and mandated to achieve a minimum standard of emissions, crash safety, and fuel consumption.

Almost every nation in the world uses the metric standard!

The UL / cUL standard was created to insure products were safe and met specifications in what ever class they sell in.

Every ship sold today must comply and meet global Standards as it pertains to single / double hull designs never mind the millions of other standards to allow them in the water or allowed to enter a foreign port.

The following standards were created to insure anything connected would operate as expected: HDMI, USB, VGA, RS-232, RS-485, RCA, Coaxial, 120 / 240 VAC, etc

There are millions of standards as listed up above and NONE of them has stopped anyone from making profit or owning a market segment!

What some of the forum members are asking and questioning is why hasn’t the same been done for HA?!?

It’s easy for me to say because I’ve had to work with some of these companies / industries.

Plain greed . . .

Next, is wanting control think Crapple. Think Microsoft, Google, Facebook etc.

It has always been Profit before People!

As it relates to say a video system there are you guessed it - Standards! Which allows anything to Plug & Play which is championed by ONVIF!

Any door bell, intercom, security camera that complies with ONVIF will offer basic to advanced features and literally just connects to one another without fuss!

Video compression such as H.264 / H.265 which you guess based on STANDARDS is what allows us to stream, watch, record video in 2K / 4K / 8K without taking down the entire network - internet.

If the various audio compression methods such as MP3, FLAC, name any of the dozens used in every industry didn’t exist we could not listen to audio.

If the FCC / CRTC Standards didn’t exist there would be literally no TV, Radio, Cellular, Home Automation, nothing.

Groups like Z-Wave / ZigBee alliance have tried to bring everyone together. But some went a different direction because their standards were utterly sh^t!

Anyone who has ever had the displeasure of owning Z-Wave knows this! ZigBee has to be one of the worst in large part to having people in power that take 9999999 years to decide on anything!

This is why sometimes governments must force everyone to follow basic standards as I listed up above. Then everyone can build upon that basic standard and iterate as technology advances or knowledge is gained.

The NEC / CEC / UL / cUL didn’t remain the same over the course of 60 years. It continued to iterate and change as science and experience showed how things could be made safer and better.

Think of the first of anything from tires, light bulbs, steel, plastics, IC.

So no, it’s not hard to have a template that everyone follows so everything works! This has been proven by every idiot thing connected to the so called Cloud - You guessed it following no less than 50 standards to get that POS Ring to operate!

According to your logic, a standard already exists in automation as a switch is still a switch in that it turns on and off while a dimmer adds dimming capability. Same with outlets (in wall receptacles or plug in).

You're right in that standards exist and they exist for a reason. However, not all cameras support onvif (nor do most doorbells). In fact, the most popular of systems do not use onvif. Generally, it's the cheaper stuff that use onvif (there are some outliers like doorbird). Once again, race to the bottom. 

Since you bought up HDMI cables, look at the price of those. Once again, a standard allowed for a race to the bottom in regards to prices. Now they have a "certified" hdmi cable which allows companies to charge a little more. 

You do realize having a list of different compression methods means there is no standard method. The medium used to listen to music simply sports all the different stuff which allows for playback. 

Unless you're counting minimum standards for strength, etc., there is no standard steel. You have different processes as well as grades. The ingredients it takes to get those grades is not standard. That's why you have some places using iron ore while others use recycled metals. To make grade, other stuff may get added to the process. Depending on your furnace, what is required also changes.

The same applies with everything else you mentioned except government mandated stuff due to safety reasons etc. So yes, standards work and they can be great. However, it ends up being a race to the bottom

[upstatemike]

1 hour ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Let's say a company does that but in order to make a profit, they have to sell each device for 50 bucks. What's stopping another company from utilizing those same standards to develop 1 product in your line that they sell for 20 bucks? Then another company comes behind them and does the same for another product. Then so forth and so forth on down the line. How much will you make long term and would it be enough to stay in business? 

 

If the other companies can make a profit at $20 why can't the original one match that price to compete? The companies that provide the same value for less money should survive while the anti-consumer companies that are only happy with criminal levels of markup should not.

As far as high end products distinguishing themselves from cheaper ones; they should do it with higher quality products, more features (still delivered within the standard template), or nicer styling. Resorting to exclusive distribution channels or walled garden proprietary standards is not a consumer friendly way to stand out.

[Michel Kohanim]

9 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

As far as integration is concerned it is just a camera and a button and an intercom. They need to follow the api standard for each part they are using in their product

So, a composition of other things as I mentioned above. Time will tell.

14 minutes ago, larryllix said:

When amazon, Google, and Apple get together and define a standard and have 2000 products that work on it now or coming soon, for HA, I think there is a boat leaving soon.

It will likely be in the form of a NS for ISY. We have a few NS already??? well at least one that services Philips Hue hubs.

 Depends on how you define HA. If A is for Automation, then you will always have niche controllers that offer a little more services. If A is for Alexa, then you are 100% correct. Actually, I think the boat has already left. 

And, it won't be an NS because NS does not define the type of things. 

With kind regards,
Michel

[upstatemike]

3 minutes ago, Michel Kohanim said:

So, a composition of other things as I mentioned above. Time will tell.

No not a composition. Three different defined templates. The communications protocol does not know or care if these things are packaged together into a single product... just that they adhere to the relevent template standards.

[lilyoyo1]

34 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

If the other companies can make a profit at $20 why can't the original one match that price to compete? The companies that provide the same value for less money should survive while the anti-consumer companies that are only happy with criminal levels of markup should not.

As far as high end products distinguishing themselves from cheaper ones; they should do it with higher quality products, more features (still delivered within the standard template), or nicer styling. Resorting to exclusive distribution channels or walled garden proprietary standards is not a consumer friendly way to stand out.

Once 20.00 becomes the norm, someone will produce for 15. That's how the race to the bottom works. For a company to invest money on r&d and design, they are taking the hit so they want/need to recoup costs. A person simply copying them saves on that say they can produce cheaper. 

Higher quality components isn't enough to justify higher prices to most people to make up for what it costs to pay designers, coders, etc. Innovating and bringing new products to the market is not cheap which is why companies work to protect their investments by making them proprietary. While it may not be consumer friendly, businesses exist to make money. They'll be consumer friendly when and where it makes sense but otherwise their focus is on their own bottom line. It's the same reason why I stay away from consumer friendly stuff for the most part. Limited return on investment since anyone can do it. 

[Teken]

According to your logic, a standard already exists in automation as a switch is still a switch in that it turns on and off while a dimmer adds dimming capability. Same with outlets (in wall receptacles or plug in).
You're right in that standards exist and they exist for a reason. However, not all cameras support onvif (nor do most doorbells). In fact, the most popular of systems do not use onvif. Generally, it's the cheaper stuff that use onvif (there are some outliers like doorbird). Once again, race to the bottom. 
Since you bought up HDMI cables, look at the price of those. Once again, a standard allowed for a race to the bottom in regards to prices. Now they have a "certified" hdmi cable which allows companies to charge a little more. 
You do realize having a list of different compression methods means there is no standard method. The medium used to listen to music simply sports all the different stuff which allows for playback. 
Unless you're counting minimum standards for strength, etc., there is no standard steel. You have different processes as well as grades. The ingredients it takes to get those grades is not standard. That's why you have some places using iron ore while others use recycled metals. To make grade, other stuff may get added to the process. Depending on your furnace, what is required also changes.
The same applies with everything else you mentioned except government mandated stuff due to safety reasons etc. So yes, standards work and they can be great. However, it ends up being a race to the bottom

You’re confusing standards with competition and wanting to gain market share while making profit. There are endless examples of racing to the bottom yet there are countless others that don’t.

All of the market leaders from Apple ~ Sonos continue to command a high premium for their wares. They don’t worry or bother to play in the $0.99 isles because there’s no profit in it!

The so called race to the bottom exists in almost every industry. If that wasn’t true how would the vast majority of bids not go toward the lowest bidder?!?

The space shuttle literally was built on the lowest bidder! Almost every major infrastructure from road, bridge, ship was awarded to the lowest bidder! Keeping in mind the obvious of meeting STANDARDS in those respective industries which we can ignore back room deals, I owe you a favour, etc scenarios.

You’re correct my analogy of Steel was to convey there are standards depending upon where the material is being used. For example Any firearm barrel used today follows the most basic standards of metal composition so the thing doesn’t explode in your hand when a projectile comes racing out - using industry standards.

The so called racing to the bottom is in large part simple competition. The Chinese have simply filled the gap where the public has a want / need. This has directly made the market leaders to do what?!?

Offer the same at a cheaper price!

Do you truly believe Crapple offered the first ever large screen phone because they are so smart?!?

No, because that idiot Steve Jobs if still alive would have kept the iPhone at 4” forever because he said anything bigger is stupid?!?

If he was still alive the iPad would also NOT exist and you guessed it. It’s because he truly believed that market segment was stupid?!?

Some more history for those who didn’t pay attention to the growth of Crapple.

The only reason Steve Jobs caved in and integrated the X86 Intel architecture is because his sh^tty computers had literally 0.001% of the global market. Never mind not even 1% of the North American market! He finally accepted that for his company to ever gain market share was to do what?!?

Follow the industry standard!

That was coupled with Tim following everything the industry was doing and using!

Think Microsoft Office!

Now, as of this writing CrApple indeed has a race to the bottom mentality like everyone else. They simply hide it and promote it differently to all of the less than bright iSheep!

Think every four generations of hardware still for sale?!?

Why??

Because it cost them nothing to produce five year old hardware and sell it at cellular companies from ATT, Verizon, Rogers, Bell, etc for $0.00 ~ 99.XX. Keeping in
mind this stupid company over night convinced the entire world and industry that nothing could be replaced from battery, memory, storage, video etc!!

This level of stupid has now been hidden in the guise of being green! So stupid believes they just parted with $1K for a phone and it doesn’t even come with any chargers, cables, headset?!?

Their race to the bottom is to give you less while taking more! The first time I saw and worked on that stupid over priced garbage can shaped computer they touted as the best blah blah. Only to turf it like that cheese grader turd they came out with I burst out laughing!

The clients I had to come on site to repair these turds were the a typical iSheep. I just laughed at the one guy who parted more than $15K on a garbage can and since it was made by the Apple Gods it had to be the best!

Yeah?!?

Than why am I here servicing this turd and going to charge you $5K? Oh I forgot because these people have more money than brains! $15K and this company only gives you 1 year warranty? Oh I guess he could have bought the $1K extended warranty because Apple hardware is just so awesome and reliable - not!

Racing to the bottom happens everywhere. This is proven each day by the three domestic automakers that as of this writing continue to lead in every TSB / Recall since cars existed!

So racing to the bottom exists in various forms.