Insteon being discontinued?

[lilyoyo1]

11 minutes ago, Teken said:

I simply countered your assertion that HA standards would kill off competition, innovation, progress.

Now, if only Americans would move off the imperial system that would be progress!!!

I never said standards kill competition. I said standards will limit innovation as companies will simply follow what the standard entails and not try anything new. As I've also shown with Tuyo, zwave, and ZigBee, no one is trying to come out with anything new. Everyone is simply releasing the same old products with a lower price point! It's less about building an ecosystem that can thrive vs copying everyone else. You still haven't named a single manufacturer that uses the same standards where they aren't simply copying the other guys. 

The only place you find full ecosystems is in proprietary high end systems. Why? Because they've taken the time, money, and effort to build out their systems to make them desirable to use. By protecting their investments, they are able to spend the time and money on their systems vs making the same stuff as everyone else. 

[Michel Kohanim]

@Teken,

No I am not. As I mentioned many times, I am not arguing against standards. I am arguing against having more standard when others already exist. BTW, drivers do not have a standard (they are OS dependent). I will refer you to this from @MrBill:

With kind regards,
Michel

[Teken]

I never said standards kill competition. I said standards will limit innovation as companies will simply follow what the standard entails and not try anything new. As I've also shown with Tuyo, zwave, and ZigBee, no one is trying to come out with anything new. Everyone is simply releasing the same old products with a lower price point! It's less about building an ecosystem that can thrive vs copying everyone else. You still haven't named a single manufacturer that uses the same standards where they aren't simply copying the other guys. 
The only place you find full ecosystems is in proprietary high end systems. Why? Because they've taken the time, money, and effort to build out their systems to make them desirable to use. By protecting their investments, they are able to spend the time and money on their systems vs making the same stuff as everyone else. 

I offered you not one but several in case you missed it: WiFi 6 / POE

There are literally hundreds if not thousands of companies making hardware to support the latest WiFi 6 Standard. They each offer their own extra features while asking for a premium.

Not just racing to the bottom as you like to suggest that encompasses all things.

I could provide you with endless lists of industries that follow standards yet continue to innovate, grow, and prosper. These industries fight tooth and nail to keep its share but grow them each year.

Think Eaton, Leviton, Siemens, Pass & Seymour, etc. Each of these companies span high / low voltage hardware. They cover network, breakers, cables, all manner of solutions.

Now whether or not a company is all in with HA depends upon their leadership seeing value in the same!

Some companies just gobbled up other small players so they could rebrand and enter the market think Leviton. While others said we are going on our own because we can do better by offering more in sectors that make huge profit.

Nobody serious ever gets into consumer vs commercial / industry if there’s a choice! This is why smart panels have existed in industry for two decades in some form or another.

We are only seeing the same in the consumer market from the likes of Leviton because they feel the market is ready! While Eaton and others have been doing this since 2000!

21 years that’s two decades in a field they dominate because it makes huge profits.

If that isn’t enough examples - batter up!

[Teken]

@Teken,
No I am not. As I mentioned many times, I am not arguing against standards. I am arguing against having more standard when others already exist. BTW, drivers do not have a standard (they are OS dependent). I will refer you to this from @MrBill:

With kind regards,
Michel

I believe you’re going out of your way to ignore the basic question and premise. I provided and affirmed my USB Driver analogy not once, twice, but 3 times. Anyone reading my replies can tell I speak plainly and with the best intentions of offering counter points using facts.

That anyone can easily understand and validate themselves.

I stated the difference between the two OS from Windows vs Linux! That was one provided more standard drivers for USB devices vs any flavour of Linux!

Yet your reply is to affirm what I stated twice?!?

Your none answer simply affirms what I stated. No, I can not take ANY USB device and have it work simply by inserting the same into a port! I have a 50/50 chance that it will require what??

None standard drivers not built into the current release of BSD you’re running! If I have to go into the command line and tell the OS to pull some random software just for a USB device to operate that by default means it’s not standard.

Again, it’s not your fault or anyone else’s it’s simply the state of affairs of the industry as a whole. But, when you assert and affirm that drivers are not standard due to OS dependencies have you not made my point?!?

[upstatemike]

49 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

I never said standards kill competition. I said standards will limit innovation as companies will simply follow what the standard entails and not try anything new. As I've also shown with Tuyo, zwave, and ZigBee, no one is trying to come out with anything new. Everyone is simply releasing the same old products with a lower price point! It's less about building an ecosystem that can thrive vs copying everyone else. You still haven't named a single manufacturer that uses the same standards where they aren't simply copying the other guys. 

Here are a few examples of Z-Wave devices that are not just copies of the lowest common denominator:

The Zooz 700 Series Z-Wave Plus Mesh Network Scene Controller ZEN32 controls local loads AND controls scenes AND has programmable leds to alert you to the status of things

  https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09B6S4TSL/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o09_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1

What is the C4 equivalent to that?

The Inovelli Red Series Dimmer Switch (Z-Wave)does not require a neutral, has color LED indicators for notifications, and can control up to 15 different scenes.

https://inovelli.com/red-series-dimmer-switch-z-wave/

Which RadioRa2 switch has all of those features?

Seems like you can adhere to the Z-Wave "standard" and still innovate a little bit.

[Michel Kohanim]

@Teken,

I am having a very very very very x infinitely infinite hard time to make a linkage between an OS dependent driver, USB hardware, USB serial device/music streaming/Zigbee/Z-Wave/Tekenware, etc.  and standards. It makes absolutely no sense. Are you referring to Plug and Play?

With kind regards,
Michel

 

[asbril]

1 hour ago, larryllix said:

OMG! We do not need another standard. WTF is a metric ounce now? We already have an Imperial and a US ounce (4.1666% larger). We had a counting system standard where a billion (bi-million) had 12 zeros and now it has only 9 zeroes in English and 12 zeroes in the rest of the world. In Canada now we have two counting systems and talk about causing less unity? When asked when the new billion was enacted, our government standards department won't answer.

how many zeros in a zillion ?   

[lilyoyo1]

55 minutes ago, Teken said:

I offered you not one but several in case you missed it: WiFi 6 / POE

There are literally hundreds if not thousands of companies making hardware to support the latest WiFi 6 Standard. They each offer their own extra features while asking for a premium.

Not just racing to the bottom as you like to suggest that encompasses all things.

I could provide you with endless lists of industries that follow standards yet continue to innovate, grow, and prosper. These industries fight tooth and nail to keep its share but grow them each year.

Think Eaton, Leviton, Siemens, Pass & Seymour, etc. Each of these companies span high / low voltage hardware. They cover network, breakers, cables, all manner of solutions.

Now whether or not a company is all in with HA depends upon their leadership seeing value in the same!

Some companies just gobbled up other small players so they could rebrand and enter the market think Leviton. While others said we are going on our own because we can do better by offering more in sectors that make huge profit.

Nobody serious ever gets into consumer vs commercial / industry if there’s a choice! This is why smart panels have existed in industry for two decades in some form or another.

We are only seeing the same in the consumer market from the likes of Leviton because they feel the market is ready! While Eaton and others have been doing this since 2000!

21 years that’s two decades in a field they dominate because it makes huge profits.

If that isn’t enough examples - batter up!

I'm tired of going around in circles with this so this will be my last post on the subject.

I'm not saying (nor have i said) standards do not exist nor are helpful. As you've said countless times on repeat it has benefitted consumers many times over. It's whether it will help HA itself in regards to a full ecosystem or not. My argument from the beginning is that it could/would cause a race to the bottom in regards to prices causing stagnation in the industry. The likelihood of seeing alot of innovation and ecosystems (remember this word, you'll be seeing it again) growing from those standards would be limited (non existent). Whatever said devices were made for will be it. Individual companies will not work to build out an ecosystem because of the financial risk. 

Now- In regards to wifi 6! You're talking about a router (or connected devices that has it). A router is a singular device designed for a specific purpose. That is not the same as an ecosystem which is a multitude of devices. 

When I look at the price of wifi6 when first released to now, there's a huge difference. Technically you can get one for the very low price of free if you're an at&t customer as their newest router has support for wifi6. On the flip side, you can also buy a few different models for about 70 bucks so I would say it is a race to the bottom knowing where they started off at.

Additional features are added by the big companies in hopes of differentiating their products from others in hopes that you'll pay more but we both already know how that goes....There are cases where a person will spend more (alot more) for their needs. They may be a gamer, perceived idea of best=more, simply want most expensive, larger home, etc. For the avg person however, they'll go with either the free option from their provider or the cheap one you can find in stores. 

 

 

 

[Teken]

I'm tired of going around in circles with this so this will be my last post on the subject.
I'm not saying (nor have i said) standards do not exist nor are helpful. As you've said countless times on repeat it has benefitted consumers many times over. It's whether it will help HA itself in regards to a full ecosystem or not. My argument from the beginning is that it could/would cause a race to the bottom in regards to prices causing stagnation in the industry. The likelihood of seeing alot of innovation and ecosystems (remember this word, you'll be seeing it again) growing from those standards would be limited (non existent). Whatever said devices were made for will be it. Individual companies will not work to build out an ecosystem because of the financial risk. 
Now- In regards to wifi 6! You're talking about a router (or connected devices that has it). A router is a singular device designed for a specific purpose. That is not the same as an ecosystem which is a multitude of devices. 
When I look at the price of wifi6 when first released to now, there's a huge difference. Technically you can get one for the very low price of free if you're an at&t customer as their newest router has support for wifi6. On the flip side, you can also buy a few different models for about 70 bucks so I would say it is a race to the bottom knowing where they started off at.
Additional features are added by the big companies in hopes of differentiating their products from others in hopes that you'll pay more but we both already know how that goes....There are cases where a person will spend more (alot more) for their needs. They may be a gamer, perceived idea of best=more, simply want most expensive, larger home, etc. For the avg person however, they'll go with either the free option from their provider or the cheap one you can find in stores. 
 
 
 

You asked me to provide examples - I did. I’ve had to reiterate (repeat as you like to say) because you seem to want to ignore these factual examples.

I mean if you wanted more specific examples to illustrate my point - sure. Regardless, we can agree to disagree because I’m always right!

[Teken]

@Teken,
I am having a very very very very x infinitely infinite hard time to make a linkage between an OS dependent driver, USB hardware, USB serial device/music streaming/Zigbee/Z-Wave/Tekenware, etc.  and standards. It makes absolutely no sense. Are you referring to Plug and Play?
With kind regards,
Michel
 

Why yes at a high level and it should be noted I own all rights to the phrase and trademark of Tekenware!

[lilyoyo1]

1 hour ago, upstatemike said:

Here are a few examples of Z-Wave devices that are not just copies of the lowest common denominator:

The Zooz 700 Series Z-Wave Plus Mesh Network Scene Controller ZEN32 controls local loads AND controls scenes AND has programmable leds to alert you to the status of things

  https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09B6S4TSL/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o09_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1

What is the C4 equivalent to that?

The Inovelli Red Series Dimmer Switch (Z-Wave)does not require a neutral, has color LED indicators for notifications, and can control up to 15 different scenes.

https://inovelli.com/red-series-dimmer-switch-z-wave/

Which RadioRa2 switch has all of those features?

Seems like you can adhere to the Z-Wave "standard" and still innovate a little bit.

Wow- those features sure are amazing....what have I been missing all these years. ?

Besides mentioning the leds in my very first post, C4 has been doing that for years, not waiting until recent times. Sounds like Apple talking about NFC after android had it for years. FYI- homeseer switches has also been doing this for some time as well.

C4 switches have programmable RGB LEDs for status. C4 didn't have to wait until now to come up with that feature and they take it a step further by integrating an ambient light sensor so that the LEDs automatically adjusts brightness depending on how bright the room is. If your switches/keypads are engraved, the ambient light sensor works for this as well. 

In regards to ra2 nope. But unlike zooz and innovelli, C4 and Ra2 are their own ecosystems. Can you operate either one of those companies device lines without a 3rd party controller?

In addition to that, can either one of those devices work with a group of other devices without experiencing the popcorn effect? 

Zwave devices cannot compare to either of those systems at all. You may find 1 or 2 features that exist in it but those devices will fail miserably if you try to compare it to any of the top systems. Heck, you can't even get custom buttons for zwave keypads. There's a reason why people talk about lighting experience when it comes to these systems vs simple automation.

Despite your examples, neither product actually offers anything of substance outside of what other devices do when it comes to the one thing they're designed for and that's lighting. If having a house full of innovelli or zooz means no popcorn effect then that would be something of substance. If they offered keypads along with custom engraving, at least then, i could start looking at them as trying to start building an ecosystem. They are simply coming out with the same exact rehashed devices that does the same thing as someone else 

 

Edited September 14, 2021 by lilyoyo1

[lilyoyo1]

24 minutes ago, Teken said:

Why yes at a high level and it should be noted I own all rights to the phrase and trademark of Tekenware!

Sounds like spam to me

[lilyoyo1]

29 minutes ago, Teken said:

You asked me to provide examples - I did. I’ve had to reiterate (repeat as you like to say) because you seem to want to ignore these factual examples.

I mean if you wanted more specific examples to illustrate my point - sure. Regardless, we can agree to disagree because I’m always right!

We both know you end things like that when you know your wrong!

Ps. Still a race to the bottom

Edited September 14, 2021 by lilyoyo1

[Teken]

We both know you end things like that when you know your wrong!
Ps. Still a race to the bottom

I was expecting a lot more not some weak sauce reply.

Try harder young man . . .

[Teken]

We both know you end things like that when you know your wrong!
Ps. Still a race to the bottom

I was expecting a lot more not some weak sauce reply.

Try harder young man . . .

[lilyoyo1]

Just now, Teken said:

I was expecting a lot more not some weak sauce reply.

Try harder young man . . .

I tried to keep my response as weak as your argument. ?

[Teken]

We both know you end things like that when you know your wrong!
Ps. Still a race to the bottom

I was expecting a lot more not some weak sauce reply.

Try harder young man . . .

[Teken]

I tried to keep my response as weak as your argument.

[apostolakisl]

4 hours ago, larryllix said:

Yeah that is quite impressive. Not really there yet but impressive.
Mine navigates dirt roads with clean edges like that also. Intersections? no. From what I have been told those features are not allowed in Canada, and not likely in any states yet either. They seem to have along way to go.

The toys ere admitted in one of these similar Telsa brag videos about their latest self garage parking achievement.  Possibly a few years old now. Visual cameras cannot discern many things well enough to make this work reliably.  Garage lighting is always a problem for visible light. Too much contrast from sunshine to shade. Competitive manufacturers  report they will require LIDAR, but Telsa (well.. Musk)  was being stubborn.

When you say "yours", what is it your are driving?  And I assume you are speaking of autopilot, not FSD.  I think you aren't giving cameras their due.  Reasonably priced cameras are now far better than human eyes.  It isn't that the data isn't there, it is, much more of it than needed, it is in making sense of it that computers are still learning.  If you study neurology and more specifically the visual cortex, you learn how the human brain makes sense of the world with all sorts of little algorithms.  It is similar algorithms that Tesla and others are coding into computers to make sense of the world.  It will be very interesting to see what happens when Dojo comes online later this year and Tesla starts feeding it millions of hours of actual driving video.

[Michel Kohanim]

@Teken,

I want a commission for Tekenware!

UPnP turned into Web Services for Devices turned into DLNA and disappeared.
PnP requires drivers. Drivers are not standards based. Drivers are platform based. Analogy, you cannot natively run an Android app on iPhone. None require standards. We already have everything we need.

With kind regards,
Michel

[upstatemike]

2 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Despite your examples, neither product actually offers anything of substance outside of what other devices do when it comes to the one thing they're designed for and that's lighting.

 

They do offer one thing and that is affordability so they are attainable by mere mortals. If I could afford C4 I could probably afford to go all the way and get Crestron. The reality is that I will never be able to afford a proprietary system like that. I depend on the standards based products to exist so I can have access to HA just like the rich folks.

[apostolakisl]

18 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

They do offer one thing and that is affordability so they are attainable by mere mortals. If I could afford C4 I could probably afford to go all the way and get Crestron. The reality is that I will never be able to afford a proprietary system like that. I depend on the standards based products to exist so I can have access to HA just like the rich folks.

A friend of mine sold his house because of the Crestron, truly, no other reason, he HATED it.  It was a common event that something simply stopped working.  With Crestron, that means you call for service, wait, have to have someone let them in, they may or may not fix it right away, and then you get a bill for $500.  But the real kicker is that your lights don't work during all of this.  And with Crestron, once you build your house for it, you are at their mercy.  And the day will definitely come that Crestron is absolutely obsolete and you will have a house that is wired for Crestron and only Crestron.  

[LarryCRetired]

Sorry but I have to disengage myself from this thread.  I am afraid google is going to think I am getting a lot of spam notifications ?  Although the discussion has been interesting

[upstatemike]

32 minutes ago, apostolakisl said:

A friend of mine sold his house because of the Crestron, truly, no other reason, he HATED it.  It was a common event that something simply stopped working.  With Crestron, that means you call for service, wait, have to have someone let them in, they may or may not fix it right away, and then you get a bill for $500.  But the real kicker is that your lights don't work during all of this.  And with Crestron, once you build your house for it, you are at their mercy.  And the day will definitely come that Crestron is absolutely obsolete and you will have a house that is wired for Crestron and only Crestron.  

Lucky for me I can't afford Crestron so I won't get caught in that trap. For now I'll start checking out the C4 Node Server while looking forward to the day I can somehow justify one of those systems.

[upstatemike]

1 minute ago, LarryCRetired said:

Sorry but I have to disengage myself from this thread.  I am afraid google is going to think I am getting a lot of spam notifications ?  Although the discussion has been interesting

Maybe what you really need to do is disengage from Google?