Insteon being discontinued?

[LarryCRetired]

Got me there?

[lilyoyo1]

Just now, upstatemike said:

They do offer one thing and that is affordability so they are attainable by mere mortals. If I could afford C4 I could probably afford to go all the way and get Crestron. The reality is that I will never be able to afford a proprietary system like that. I depend on the standards based products to exist so I can have access to HA just like the rich folks.

While it's a moot point, Crestron is actually much more expensive than Control 4. It'll cost roughly 2x that of control4 (if going with hardwired system) C4 gets you on device cost but programming it is relatively easy so it doesn't cost that much (relatively speaking). 

Crestron is the opposite. Device cost is actually pretty cheap. Especially with their wireless system. However, due to programming, the cost for it is higher. 

Affordability matters. However, my post wasn't to talk anyone into C4 or any luxury system. It was to show the difference when companies are able to invest in building an ecosystem vs making minimal profit which doesn't allow for long term development to build an ecosystem.

[lilyoyo1]

42 minutes ago, apostolakisl said:

A friend of mine sold his house because of the Crestron, truly, no other reason, he HATED it.  It was a common event that something simply stopped working.  With Crestron, that means you call for service, wait, have to have someone let them in, they may or may not fix it right away, and then you get a bill for $500.  But the real kicker is that your lights don't work during all of this.  And with Crestron, once you build your house for it, you are at their mercy.  And the day will definitely come that Crestron is absolutely obsolete and you will have a house that is wired for Crestron and only Crestron.  

This is why I never got into Crestron or Lutron homeworks. Great systems but you are at the no mercy of the systems. Once installed you can't go back to normal. I couldn't in good conscience do that to someone. Crestron does have a wireless option now but I don't have any experience with it too talk about it

[TJF1960]

8 hours ago, Michel Kohanim said:

34 pages from "insteon being discontinued" to self driving cars, standards, health/safety, animal cruelty, esoteric creatures and ghouls, premonitions and prophecies ... what else is left to discuss? 

With kind regards,
Michel

@Michel KohanimI felt the same way but here we are only 8 hours and 2 full pages later!

 

Quote

@LarryCRetiredSorry but I have to disengage myself from this thread.  I am afraid google is going to think I am getting a lot of spam notifications ?  Although the discussion has been interesting

I am with @LarryCRetiredexcept I unfollowed about 15 pages ago.  I stayed connected because I use this forum to learn all things ISY and I was afraid I might miss something important. Boy was I wrong. I could have disconnected after page one and not missed a thing. This is the exact situation that makes following other important posts difficult to follow along, or find the one item your looking for. Like a needle in a haystack.

Isn't the Coffee Shop section where all the opinionated posts belong (Including all the non ISY, bloated, egotistical rants)?

 

[asbril]

4 minutes ago, TJF1960 said:

@Michel KohanimI felt the same way but here we are only 8 hours and 2 full pages later!

 

I am with @LarryCRetiredexcept I unfollowed about 15 pages ago.  I stayed connected because I use this forum to learn all things ISY and I was afraid I might miss something important. Boy was I wrong. I could have disconnected after page one and not missed a thing. This is the exact situation that makes following other important posts difficult to follow along, or find the one item your looking for. Like a needle in a haystack.

Isn't the Coffee Shop section where all the opinionated posts belong (Including all the non ISY, bloated, egotistical rants)?

 

Bravo

[DAlter01]

9 minutes ago, TJF1960 said:

@Michel KohanimI felt the same way but here we are only 8 hours and 2 full pages later!

 

I am with @LarryCRetiredexcept I unfollowed about 15 pages ago.  I stayed connected because I use this forum to learn all things ISY and I was afraid I might miss something important. Boy was I wrong. I could have disconnected after page one and not missed a thing. This is the exact situation that makes following other important posts difficult to follow along, or find the one item your looking for. Like a needle in a haystack.

Isn't the Coffee Shop section where all the opinionated posts belong (Including all the non ISY, bloated, egotistical rants)?

 

That ship sailed 30 pages ago.  Everyone still tuned in knows the role this thread holds.  You can start a new one on Insteon being discontinued if you want to be a purist.  If not, then the posters on this thread will likely continue the takeover/banter.  No harm is being done.  The group subscribed has found a method to enjoy the back and forth.  If that isn't you, maybe unsubscribe?  This thread is no longer about Insteon being discontinued. 

[larryllix]

4 hours ago, apostolakisl said:

When you say "yours", what is it your are driving?  And I assume you are speaking of autopilot, not FSD.  I think you aren't giving cameras their due.  Reasonably priced cameras are now far better than human eyes.  It isn't that the data isn't there, it is, much more of it than needed, it is in making sense of it that computers are still learning.  If you study neurology and more specifically the visual cortex, you learn how the human brain makes sense of the world with all sorts of little algorithms.  It is similar algorithms that Tesla and others are coding into computers to make sense of the world.  It will be very interesting to see what happens when Dojo comes online later this year and Tesla starts feeding it millions of hours of actual driving video.

Mine is a Honda. Telsa owners have explained their so called "auto pilot" and we can see no difference in capabilities or operation. Auto Pilot include ACC and LKAS in one switch.

According to the video links supplied FSD is the version of Auto Pilot. Electronic video sensors do not have the dynamic range that the human eye has, although the newer units have dual sensors for higher and lower light ranges. Some high end cameras and Samsung mobile phones use that technology but I have not heard of it in video yet.

Interestingly, human eyes are only low/mid-resolution. I can see the RGB dots in my visual image at certain times and lighting. Human eyes pan and scan continuously and the brain amalgamates the information into a high resolution image. Of course two eyes give depth. I doubt my vehicle uses two cams to establish depth and I don't think Telsa does either. I am not sure why they use four separate cams. ahhh... I forgot... two are used for rain detection.

Visible light cams do not work in northern weather. No lines, bad lines, rain, snow, tire ruts, and tar filled frost contraction cracks reflecting light confuse all systems I have seen. A hardware tracking system will be required. That won't happen for many decades, minimum.

[DAlter01]

2 minutes ago, larryllix said:

That won't happen for many decades, minimum.

I'd put big money against that statement.

[apostolakisl]

5 minutes ago, larryllix said:

 

Human eyes pan and scan continuously and the brain amalgamates the information into a high resolution image. Of course two eyes give depth. I doubt my vehicle uses two cams to establish depth and I don't think Telsa does either. I am not sure why they use four separate cams. ahhh... I forgot... two are used for rain detection.

 

This is what I am speaking of.  The brain processes the info, that is what is going on with the processors and the algorithms being created by Tesla.  That is what makes Tesla what it is.  Anybody can buy the cameras.  I think you over estimate the human eye and under estimate the cameras.  I can't say for certain, but Tesla must use two camera depth perception.  It has to, there is no way to tell distance without it and Tesla clearly can tell distance to object, it is displayed right there on the screen, it shows you, and it shows all the objects around you in 2 dimensions.  They don't have any other distance detection.

[larryllix]

4 minutes ago, DAlter01 said:

I'd put big money against that statement.

Won't happen here. We have a Telsa charging station and we have seen 2 vehicles charging over the last three years (maybe the same vehicle?). They are mostly useless in the winter here, due to pricing, and they formerly would get stuck on flat pavement, trying not to spin their tires, and with snow on the road, none of the features work anyway. It was published Telsa was working on the stuck on flat pavement problem a few years ago and I would suspect they must have that resolved by now.

[DAlter01]

7 minutes ago, apostolakisl said:

This is what I am speaking of.  The brain processes the info, that is what is going on with the processors and the algorithms being created by Tesla.  That is what makes Tesla what it is.  Anybody can buy the cameras.  I think you over estimate the human eye and under estimate the cameras.  I can't say for certain, but Tesla must use two camera depth perception.  It has to, there is no way to tell distance without it and Tesla clearly can tell distance to object, it is displayed right there on the screen, it shows you, and it shows all the objects around you in 2 dimensions.  They don't have any other distance detection.

I may be in the minority on this topic, maybe not, but within a five or ten years I think technology will be advanced far enough that I will feel infinently safer having the constant attention, multiple eyes, lack of getting drowsy/distracted, redundent systems, etc. more than my own when driving.  Don't get my wrong, I enjoy my high HP car, its fun to drive.  But for long routine drives, I'd rather use my time doing something else.  

Edited September 15, 2021 by DAlter01

[larryllix]

4 minutes ago, apostolakisl said:

This is what I am speaking of.  The brain processes the info, that is what is going on with the processors and the algorithms being created by Tesla.  That is what makes Tesla what it is.  Anybody can buy the cameras.  I think you over estimate the human eye and under estimate the cameras.  I can't say for certain, but Tesla must use two camera depth perception.  It has to, there is no way to tell distance without it and Tesla clearly can tell distance to object, it is displayed right there on the screen, it shows you, and it shows all the objects around you in 2 dimensions.  They don't have any other distance detection.

Mine uses seperate radar to establish distance and depth. AFAIK The two systems don't talk to each other though.

[DAlter01]

4 minutes ago, larryllix said:

Won't happen here. We have a Telsa charging station and we have seen 2 vehicles charging over the last three years (maybe the same vehicle?). They are mostly useless in the winter here, due to pricing, and they formerly would get stuck on flat pavement, trying not to spin their tires, and with snow on the road, none of the features work anyway. It was published Telsa was working on the stuck on flat pavement problem a few years ago and I would suspect they must have that resolved by now.

That would be hilarous to see.

[larryllix]

1 minute ago, DAlter01 said:

That would be hilarous to see.

 Many electric cars had the same problem, I was told.  On a flat surface, with an inch of slippery snow, the high torque motors would cause a wheel to slip, and between the anti-skid algorithms and some other algorithm, the car would just sit and not move. I think better feathering of the torque resolved that problem a few years ago.

[lilyoyo1]

6 minutes ago, DAlter01 said:

I may be in the minority on this topic, maybe not, but within a five or ten years I think technology will be advanced far enough that I will feel infinently safer having the constant attention, multiple eyes, lack of getting drowsy/distracted, redundent systems, etc. more than my own when driving.  Don't get my wrong, I enjoy my high HP car, its fun to drive.  But for long routine drives, I'd rather use my time doing something else.  

I'm with you on this one. After my experience with my GV, I'm looking forward to the future

[DAlter01]

1 minute ago, lilyoyo1 said:

I'm with you on this one. After my experience with my GV, I'm looking forward to the future

What is your GV?

[Teken]

As it relates to so called autonomous vehicles roaming the streets. As noted several times the true litmus test is to see millions of children sitting alone in the same.

Never, ever happen . . .

This is why the same isn’t seen in any commercial airliner. To put a more finer point a train owns the entire track and literally has no one to worry about!

Yet there isn’t a single example of a dedicated train on a rail line controlled by a computer without human presence?!?

Let that settle in . . .

[DAlter01]

10 minutes ago, Teken said:

As it relates to so called autonomous vehicles roaming the streets. As noted several times the true litmus test is to see millions of children sitting alone in the same.

Never, ever happen . . .

This is why the same isn’t seen in any commercial airliner. To put a more finer point a train owns the entire track and literally has no one to worry about!

Yet there isn’t a single example of a dedicated train on a rail line controlled by a computer without human presence?!?

Let that settle in . . .

What do you define as a "train".  I've been on plenty of light rail systems that are without a human at the helm.   Most of those were in europe, a few here in the US.  Maybe someone on a control panel off-site, but they are not on the car and I'm sure they were just redundant.  With regards to trains, I have a relative that is high up at UP.  They would love to destaff but have union considerations and since they need the government on their side they think the fight isn't worth it, just saying.  Or, at least that is the word I've hear.

[Teken]

What do you define as a "train".  I've been on plenty of light rail systems that are without a human at the helm.   Most of those were in europe, a few here in the US.  Maybe someone on a control panel off-site, but they are not on the car and I'm sure they were just redundant.  With regards to trains, I have a relative that is high up at UP.  They would love to destaff but have union considerations and since they need the government on their side they think the fight isn't worth it, just saying.  Or, at least that is the word I've hear.

I’m speaking about a train carrying all manor of cargo primarily. Next is the same using the same RR tracks. There isn’t a single train that doesn’t have human present.

As stated the same has never been done for any (public) commercial airline. Even if we dial back the litmus test of a child. You’ll never see a hundred people board a plane where there is zero human presence - ever!

Based on statistics rail is safer than planes. Air travel is exponentially safer than any vehicle no matter where in the world.

So if air travel is so safe and Boeing / Air Bus have proven they can take off, fly, and land without any human intervention.

Why hasn’t this marvellous technology been harnessed and used?!?

If one steps back and considers how many possibilities they are for a motor vehicle to be affected by whatever when compared to air travel. It’s common sense to realize it’s not possible to allow a vehicle just drive around with out human control.

Another litmus test is to remove the steering wheel. Next blind fold the passenger and have them sit in the back.

You’ll never see millions of people step up to the plate.

If anyone was serious about doing this I can safely state I have two test tracks that can be used to validate a Go - No Go product!

The GM / Michelin proving grounds is world renowned for winter arctic testing! If any vehicle can pass these standard tests I’m in!

Never, ever happen . . .

[asbril]

4 hours ago, Teken said:

Never, ever happen . . .

Of course it will happen.  Let's call it evolutionary revolution

[lilyoyo1]

6 hours ago, DAlter01 said:

What is your GV?

Genesis GV80

[DAlter01]

6 hours ago, Teken said:

You’ll never see millions of people step up to the plate.

Never is a long time.  For cars the "millions using it" threshold might not be in 10 years but will for sure be here in 20.  Of this I'm sure. It will be 20-50x safer than a human controlled auto. 

The winter driving you speak of isn't the norm for much of the world.  That complication will hinder adoption in some areas that experience those conditions but that objection will not be much of an obstacle for a large portion of the population.  I'm not suggesting only autonomous vehicles will exist in 20 years.  But, for those wanting an autonomous vehicle (with human control as a backup for winter conditions, etc), it will be available and the choice of millions.

Edited September 15, 2021 by DAlter01

[DAlter01]

13 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Genesis GV80

Just looked it up, that is a beauty.  I haven't seen one in person or online before.

[upstatemike]

13 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Wow- those features sure are amazing....what have I been missing all these years. ?

Besides mentioning the leds in my very first post, C4 has been doing that for years, not waiting until recent times. Sounds like Apple talking about NFC after android had it for years. FYI- homeseer switches has also been doing this for some time as well.

C4 switches have programmable RGB LEDs for status. C4 didn't have to wait until now to come up with that feature and they take it a step further by integrating an ambient light sensor so that the LEDs automatically adjusts brightness depending on how bright the room is. If your switches/keypads are engraved, the ambient light sensor works for this as well. 

 

Looks like C4 hardware is pretty easy to come by on eBay so all we need is for somebody to finish a Node Server for it and maybe this could be a solution for folks abandoned by Insteon.

[upstatemike]

Halfway through September so only days away from Nokia/Insteon shipping. Looking forward for those who pre-ordered some to report back if this is going to save the day or just be the last nail in the Insteon coffin.