Insteon being discontinued?

[Teken]

17 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

 

I guess when the bar was set so low one could argue that hardware reliability has increased! ? Given two years hasn't come and gone to determine (IF) the latest improvements to the 2413S PLM have made a difference.

We aren't going to have that data point until then . . .

Now, since they discontinued the same why do you think that is???

[lilyoyo1]

35 minutes ago, Teken said:

I believe people should just enjoy what they have and migrate when and if they can to whatever. Speaking for myself I have enough core products in storage that will allow me to replace my network three times over. As stated early on I'll consider Z-Wave Plus using the 700 series chip set / ZigBee HA if and when the market leaders in those camps release the core items I need and use.

If none of them do I'll still have another easy 10~ 20 years of Insteon technology humming along. Lots of people have been selling used Insteon hardware on what ever platform. Anytime there's a huge lot going for pennies on the dollar I just scoop them up for parts! ? 

Insteon chips, crystals, are all desoldered just waiting to be used when needed. 

Reality is, you, me, and most of those using advanced controllers are ahead of the times and a dinosaur at the same time. Consumers have spoken for what they want and companies are giving it to them. This is why hue, nest, ecobee, rachio, and Sonos are where they are. Its why these cheap wifi switches are exploding in popularity. We can rant and rave but reality is, we are a small community in the eyes of these companies

[lilyoyo1]

4 minutes ago, Teken said:

I guess when the bar was set so low one could argue that hardware reliability has increased! ? Given two years hasn't come and gone to determine (IF) the latest improvements to the 2413S PLM have made a difference.

We aren't going to have that data point until then . . .

Now, since they discontinued the same why do you think that is???

Its not discontinued. Its a matter of focusing on stuff that sells vs those that sell a little bit. If you'd clear your email, we could chat

[upstatemike]

I don't really understand the market drivers. Like most people I don't really care about protocol technologies and will go with whatever is reliable, does what I need, and looks nice. For me that means all of the core elements, color bulbs, wall switches (that fit in standard ganged plates), motion sensors, appliance modules, etc. all speak the same protocol so they can be directly associated with each other and work reliably without an Internet dependency. Insteon has no color bulbs, Z-wave keeps promising color bulbs but they are never actually available for sale. Zigbee switches are ugly and Hue versions don't fit standard gang boxes (unless you find some third party friend of Hue version). Nobody is trying very hard to cover what I feel are some pretty basic requirements. What is it that is driving "most people" to want something different from this such that we end up with the disasterous product landscape we are currently enduring?

[lilyoyo1]

1 hour ago, Teken said:

Your not going to get an argument from me from a Apple perspective. This company like Samsh^t are pretty much in the same boat of offering subpar products, services, to playing dirty pool. Regardless, trying to compare Smartlabs to one of the most successful companies ever in history is like comparing a bicycle to a motorcycle!

I get it both have wheels, transport a person from A - B

Yet, it goes without saying one is for a child vs a grown up . . .

I would give all the tea in China to be in the same position and suit I wore 20 years ago. That being directing, managing, and controlling billion dollar corporations. I know myself and team could have made Insteon the market leader today, tomorrow, and into the future.

Instead we have hillbillies that purchased a new shiny toy thinking this would be a great hobby to play in. This company isn't serious about offering the best hardware, leading the market in cutting edge technology, or even integrating with anyone else.

Its not that. You're not their customer base. Consumers aren't after what most of these companies are offering which is why all these 5.00 wifi plugs are being sold left and right

[lilyoyo1]

39 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

I don't really understand the market drivers. Like most people I don't really care about protocol technologies and will go with whatever is reliable, does what I need, and looks nice. For me that means all of the core elements, color bulbs, wall switches (that fit in standard ganged plates), motion sensors, appliance modules, etc. all speak the same protocol so they can be directly associated with each other and work reliably without an Internet dependency. Insteon has no color bulbs, Z-wave keeps promising color bulbs but they are never actually available for sale. Zigbee switches are ugly and Hue versions don't fit standard gang boxes (unless you find some third party friend of Hue version). Nobody is trying very hard to cover what I feel are some pretty basic requirements. What is it that is driving "most people" to want something different from this such that we end up with the disasterous product landscape we are currently enduring?

Money is the driving force. To accomplish what you are asking costs money. Lots of it, for both the mfg. and the end user. Most do not want to spend what it costs for that. There's evidence of that even on here. How many users have you seen wanting to integrate with sonoff switches and other cheap stuff to save money? 

Imagine you have a company that has to pay designers, engineers, etc. How much do you think the final product would cost (your cost)? How much would you want to charge to ensure long term viability of your product? Now think about the avg. consumer. 

Take a look at digital assistants. Why aren't there more out there? There's no money in it. For what it costs to develop, maintain, and grow, most companies have to charge too much to compete with Amazon and google. When they're offering 40 dollar speakers (half of that when on sale) why bother. 

The same applies to automation devices. To cover your list, you'd have to charge more than most want to pay. Its easier to make 1 or 2 products that does whatever and let someone else fill in the blanks like what is happening now

Edited July 14, 2021 by lilyoyo1

[MrBill]

I knew we needed popcorn….…. 

….. I just made the first batch 24 hours too early

 

alls good….. real buttahhhhhhh ?

[asbril]

2 minutes ago, MrBill said:

I knew we needed popcorn….…. 

….. I just made the first batch 24 hours too early

 

alls good….. real buttahhhhhhh ?

We are just spectators.....

Edited July 14, 2021 by asbril

[Teken]

15 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Reality is, you, me, and most of those using advanced controllers are ahead of the times and a dinosaur at the same time. Consumers have spoken for what they want and companies are giving it to them. This is why hue, nest, ecobee, rachio, and Sonos are where they are. Its why these cheap wifi switches are exploding in popularity. We can rant and rave but reality is, we are a small community in the eyes of these companies

I would say the main driver & reason(s) for other protocols adoption is because they already exist in huge quantity and pervade everyone's homes, office, other. A person is hard pressed to call out a place or person that doesn't have WiFi. This is coupled by BLE which again is incorporated into every main stream device.

Just these common protocols make it easy for anyone to purchase, adopt, and integrate.

Thus, the huge adoption rate in the very same vs making a concerted effort in committing to a proprietary protocol of Insteon, Z-Wave, ZigBee.

Everyone knows how to add a BLE / WiFi device so there isn't much thinking in this regard. Now, if the conversation was how well does it scale, range, etc the win goes to Insteon. The Insteon White Paper even if created by Smartlabs is rooted and based on facts which is none of the other protocols scale, communicate, or allow large networks when compared to Insteon.

The last portion of this adoption is the vast majority of these so called cheap HA hardware offer a smart application that range from basic and sh^t - to advanced and well thought out! The vast majority believe HA is a remote control vs it being something that does something without the user intervention. 

Given, there's always some kind of interaction with Human its easy to confuse for the public a remote vs reactive logic.

[Teken]

15 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Its not discontinued. Its a matter of focusing on stuff that sells vs those that sell a little bit. If you'd clear your email, we could chat

I really wish Michel would increase the mail box limit so this isn't a ongoing problem. Let me clear some old messages and we can talk off line!

Back on Point: You know everyone gets lets focus on the bread & better of hardware that not only sells but is high profit. Again, none of that comes even close to addressing key issues of how the company is run and the products that exist or no longer do.

Blank KPL Keys: As stated up above the community found a way to make their own. Months later the company removed the blank KPL for sale! Why?? Plain greed and stupidity to spite the consumer and Insteon supporter

Failures: You mentioned a few times about reliability and how it has improved over the years which I never directly addressed. Again, when the bar is set so low any change is seen as an improvement even if it isn't. I don't pretend to know how many revisions the current KPL has gone over. But, this device continues to be a problem for me and millions of others. Leak sensors are the next weak products that need review and improvement as I had blogged about receiving no less than three leak sensors that absolutely won't enroll or just died after a battery change.

If anyone is keeping score the first generation of the new square style lamp lincs used the same cheap components and just died literally doing nothing but plugged in. It's not like no one knows what the common failure mode is for Insteon hardware 9 times out of 10!

As Mr.Bill stated so eloquently your view is the product isn't discontinued vs for discontinued, maybe discontinued, we have no clue?? I mean if someone was going to release the PLM Pro which has sat in the FCC data base since 2019 and its now July 14, 2021. Wouldn't this be a great time to reassure the customer base and at least offer a public statement that this very important device will be released??   

[lilyoyo1]

42 minutes ago, Teken said:

I really wish Michel would increase the mail box limit so this isn't a ongoing problem. Let me clear some old messages and we can talk off line!

 

Or you could delete your emails...its still not clear

[Teken]

26 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Or you could delete your emails...its still not clear

The system indicates after deleting lots of messages that I now have 98% left to use! ? You better hurry before I receive another message from a forum member! ?‍♂️

[Michel Kohanim]

I think if we add up the amount of time spent on reading, composing, and spectating this topic, we could start a company to replace INSTEON. Heck, we can even have our own standard: No-Matter!

Shall we move on?

With kind regards,
Michel

[Goose66]

Quote

I think if we add up the amount of time spent on reading, composing, and spectating this topic, we could start a company to replace INSTEON.

Or if the Insteon patents would just expire, maybe somebody would release a generic chip, like what happened with X10.

[lilyoyo1]

1 hour ago, Teken said:

I would say the main driver & reason(s) for other protocols adoption is because they already exist in huge quantity and pervade everyone's homes, office, other. A person is hard pressed to call out a place or person that doesn't have WiFi. This is coupled by BLE which again is incorporated into every main stream device.

Just these common protocols make it easy for anyone to purchase, adopt, and integrate. 

Thus, the huge adoption rate in the very same vs making a concerted effort in committing to a proprietary protocol of Insteon, Z-Wave, ZigBee.

Everyone knows how to add a BLE / WiFi device so there isn't much thinking in this regard. Now, if the conversation was how well does it scale, range, etc the win goes to Insteon. The Insteon White Paper even if created by Smartlabs is rooted and based on facts which is none of the other protocols scale, communicate, or allow large networks when compared to Insteon.

The last portion of this adoption is the vast majority of these so called cheap HA hardware offer a smart application that range from basic and sh^t - to advanced and well thought out! The vast majority believe HA is a remote control vs it being something that does something without the user intervention. 

Given, there's always some kind of interaction with Human its easy to confuse for the public a remote vs reactive logic.

The main driver is cheap and easy. Consumers dont care about Bluetooth or wifi. Wifi is everywhere so it fits in with that dynamic naturally. If it were possible to use a cellular chip in every device at a cheaper cost, we can guarantee they would go that route.

People's perception of a remote vs automation is irrelevant. Both are just words. What matters is what people want and most have shown they are completely happy with a remote.

[lilyoyo1]

1 hour ago, Teken said:

The system indicates after deleting lots of messages that I now have 98% left to use! ? You better hurry before I receive another message from a forum member! ?‍♂️

Delete more

[Teken]

18 minutes ago, Michel Kohanim said:

I think if we add up the amount of time spent on reading, composing, and spectating this topic, we could start a company to replace INSTEON. Heck, we can even have our own standard: No-Matter!

Shall we move on?

With kind regards,
Michel

I would say if UDI was ready and able to take on Insteon (if for sale) and purchased the same. The great debate would be over and all of us could move on with life! If the company was asking $50 million to purchase all the rights, patents, and production line access as it pertains to Smartlabs / Insteon etc.

If ten thousand of us crowd funded the same that would be only 5K per person to have vested interest.

If the asking price was 100 million that's still only 10K per person assuming ten thousand users. If there was a iron clad possibility to acquire Smartlabs (vested per person) I'd even go so far and say 100K from me would not be out of the question.

[Michel Kohanim]

@Teken,

Perhaps only for the mechanical design/parts. The protocol itself is not secure for the 21st century. I am not saying that we are security experts, but, for polisy, we spent $$$$ only on security related things such as TPM, secure boot, and secure storage. Now, combining that with INSTEON would be a regression in my view.

With kind regards,
Michel

[Teken]

2 minutes ago, Michel Kohanim said:

@Teken,

Perhaps only for the mechanical design/parts. The protocol itself is not secure for the 21st century. I am not saying that we are security experts, but, for polisy, we spent $$$$ only on security related things such as TPM, secure boot, and secure storage. Now, combining that with INSTEON would be a regression in my view.

With kind regards,
Michel

No arguments on those points given Insteon and other PLC are loosely based on 1970 X-10 technology. I don't know if Smartlabs would ever have the vision to begin working on a hybrid piece of hardware. If we take a few moments to just spit ball as to what a hybrid device could include:

Insteon / WiFi 6

Insteon / BLE 5.X

Insteon / LoRa

 

[asbril]

16 minutes ago, Teken said:

I would say if UDI was ready and able to take on Insteon (if for sale) and purchased the same. The great debate would be over and all of us could move on with life! If the company was asking $50 million to purchase all the rights, patents, and production line access as it pertains to Smartlabs / Insteon etc.

If ten thousand of us crowd funded the same that would be only 5K per person to have vested interest.

If the asking price was 100 million that's still only 10K per person assuming ten thousand users. If there was a iron clad possibility to acquire Smartlabs (vested per person) I'd even go so far and say 100K from me would not be out of the question.

A valuation of $50MM , at first sight, appears way beyond reality, as the expectation of finding ten thousand investors. What return on investment  would they get ? The smarter way would be to license the technology to more than one manufacturer. This is a lower entry price but recurring revenues for Smarthome.

Keeping the technology inhouse looks like the Apple strategy but without the Iphone revolution and the mass appeal.

[Teken]

1 minute ago, asbril said:

A valuation of $50MM , at first sight, appears way beyond reality, as the expectation of finding ten thousand investors. What return on investment  would they get ? The smarter way would be to license the technology to more than one manufacturer. This is a lower entry price but recurring revenues for Smarthome.

Keeping the technology inhouse looks like the Apple strategy but without the Iphone revolution and the mass appeal.

Yes, but my spit balling reply was from the point of view of (IF) there wasn't any serious companies wanting to purchase a 1970's technology company. How would one go about it in a round about way??

You use the collective power of the people and crowd funding to help wrestle the tech from Smartlabs. As you correctly pointed out the main focus would be (which I have championed forever) is to re-engage with all possible vendors in hopes of attracting companies to license the tech like Z-Wave.

This doesn't stop the new owner from still offering and selling the existing wares. So you attack it on two fronts all the while investing in R&D to expand the way the hardware can integrate with the latest technology.

[Michel Kohanim]

How about we crowdfund anti-matter (or no-matter) which is based on node server technology ?? This way, anyone can build anything they want (there's NO type in node server) and they will all work with each other and with a brain such as polisy. The first products will be switches (keypads), touchpads, and sensors. Initial protocol will be WiFi (don't want to spend $10K in Z-Wave certification) and future support for LoRa.

Do I have $2M ? ☺️

with kind regards,
Michel

[Teken]

4 minutes ago, Michel Kohanim said:

How about we crowdfund anti-matter (or no-matter) which is based on node server technology ?? This way, anyone can build anything they want (there's NO type in node server) and they will all work with each other and with a brain such as polisy. The first products will be switches (keypads), touchpads, and sensors. Initial protocol will be WiFi (don't want to spend $10K in Z-Wave certification) and future support for LoRa.

Do I have $2M ? ☺️

with kind regards,
Michel

Come on just 2 million?!? That's a drop in a bucket for you deep pocket CA dudes! ?

[Michel Kohanim]

@Teken,

For you, $3M!

With kind regards,

Michel

[Teken]

7 minutes ago, Michel Kohanim said:

@Teken,

For you, $3M!

With kind regards,

Michel

Doh . . . ??