Buzzhazz Posted January 18, 2021 Posted January 18, 2021 Hi all. I'm the kind of user who comes here once in a blue moon because I'm an amateur ISY user. I don't get really fancy with anything, and once things work like I want them to work, I disappear from here until I have an issue and need the advice of the many experts here. I'm back. I have a porch light controlled by a 6 button KPL. And I have hall lights controlled by an 8 button KPL (with two other Insteon dimmers linked as a virtual 4-way for the hall). All the bulbs are dimmable name-brand LEDs and are the same type of bulbs I have elsewhere throughout the house. Whenever there is Insteon traffic, the porch lights and the hall lights will flicker during the duration of the traffic. If I turn on a switch or adjust a dimmer, the flickering is brief. If I create a new scene on the UD Admin console that takes, for example, 20 seconds to write to the devices, rapid flickering lasts for the duration of that time. I haven't tried replacing the KPLs yet. I'm planning on selling the house this summer, and I would hate for a potential buyer to notice this and think there's a serious electrical issue. And frankly, I'd also hate for someone to buy the house, and think they have a serious problem after they move in. Has anyone else experienced this, and more importantly, found a proper remedy?
Bumbershoot Posted January 18, 2021 Posted January 18, 2021 27 minutes ago, buzzhazzard said: Has anyone else experienced this, and more importantly, found a proper remedy? Yes, there are various threads about this problem. For me, the solution was to replace the LEDs with a different brand. I understand that you're using the same LEDs elsewhere in your house, but the cheapest/easiest test might be to try a different brand of LED where you have the flicker. I've had good luck with Phillips Warm Glow bulbs, but there are other brands that work well. Search around the forum (type "flicker" in the search box) and you'll see other recommendations. 2
Buzzhazz Posted January 18, 2021 Author Posted January 18, 2021 Thanks. I'll experiment. I hate being the guy who starts a new topic about things that have already been covered, but I apparently did it anyway.
HABit Posted January 18, 2021 Posted January 18, 2021 To understand what is happening: Since the micro-C in the KPL's is under-powered, LED lighting connected to their loads will tend to flicker. Dimmer light settings, amplify the effect/make it more noticeable. Better (more expensive?) LED bulbs can help, but in my experience will not eliminate this problem entirely. The problem originates in the fact that the KPL's need to scan the keypad buttons, which adds enough overhead that when Insteon signals are received by the devices, the dimming circuit (program) is interrupted until the address/command decoding is completed. LED's react to voltage variations quickly (incandescents don't), causing the varying intensity of the bulbs (flicker). As Bumbershoot points out, this topic has been previously discussed on the Forum. 1
Buzzhazz Posted January 18, 2021 Author Posted January 18, 2021 Good background. Thanks. I have some of the bulbs Bumbershoot recommended waiting for me at Home Depot. I'll report back. When I read things like this, I have to wonder how much extra the KPL would have cost the consumer to build the switch using a better micro-C. Rhetorical question I guess.
MrBill Posted January 18, 2021 Posted January 18, 2021 You'll like the Phillips Warm Glow... they are the best dimming bulb made in my opinion. Warm Glow (or for color Hue) is all I buy now, I do still have some cheap bulbs in the garage and storage room etc. but for the most part I've changed over most to warm glow. 2
larryllix Posted January 18, 2021 Posted January 18, 2021 50 minutes ago, MrBill said: You'll like the Phillips Warm Glow... they are the best dimming bulb made in my opinion. Warm Glow (or for color Hue) is all I buy now, I do still have some cheap bulbs in the garage and storage room etc. but for the most part I've changed over most to warm glow. I finally bought some of those in the candelabra/postlight style. As soon as our lockdown is over they will be going back to HD. First, the colour of them was way too orange! I was hoping (and I read reports) they would brighten to about 3000K at least but in reality they only brighten to about 2200-2500K. They are labeled "bright white" on the package. Second the bulbs faded out and extinguished about 30% on an Insteon SwitchLinc dimmer. I had a hard time trying to dim them on the SwitchLinc Dimmer from the paddle. They kept going completely off before my hand could react. I could have maybe devised an ISY program to circumvent that, if I wanted to. I am not impressed at all for this purchase and they are going back to the store. I thought there previously was some Warm Glow bulbs that were daylight colur, and dimmed into the 2200K range, but IIRC they were over $30 per bulb, for the candelabra shape, and I was waiting for the price to drop (years now). I need at least 6 for my bathroom. The WarmGlow would be for long baths to avoid the higher K colours. These bulbs may be good for a bedroom if you never wanted to read from them.
MrBill Posted January 18, 2021 Posted January 18, 2021 17 minutes ago, larryllix said: Second the bulbs faded out and extinguished about 30% on an Insteon SwitchLinc dimmer. I just played with one 100 Watt equivalent A19 style that I can see from my laptop it seemed to go completely out at 6 or 7% I didn't go take the shade off tho so that I could actually see the bulb, that's plugged into a lamplinc plug in module. The difference made me wonder of age or hardware revision of Insteon made a difference. When we originally bought the A19's I set up a demo with a 100 watt incandescent side by side. The warm glow did get yellower faster, or more specifically at higher dim level, but with each at 100% neither my wife or I could see much difference. (She used to own a lamp and lighting store and is pickier than I am about color temp) The candelabra style bulbs that I have are really only used in carriage lights outside and come on at 15% from Sunset to Sunrise. They very warm in color, in emergency mode they do shoot up to 100% and my memory is pretty white, I'll have to look at them in that mode again tonight. I'll check what % they extinguish at then too 1
palayman Posted January 18, 2021 Posted January 18, 2021 1 hour ago, MrBill said: I just played with one 100 Watt equivalent A19 style that I can see from my laptop it seemed to go completely out at 6 or 7% I didn't go take the shade off tho so that I could actually see the bulb, that's plugged into a lamplinc plug in module. The difference made me wonder of age or hardware revision of Insteon made a difference. When we originally bought the A19's I set up a demo with a 100 watt incandescent side by side. The warm glow did get yellower faster, or more specifically at higher dim level, but with each at 100% neither my wife or I could see much difference. (She used to own a lamp and lighting store and is pickier than I am about color temp) The candelabra style bulbs that I have are really only used in carriage lights outside and come on at 15% from Sunset to Sunrise. They very warm in color, in emergency mode they do shoot up to 100% and my memory is pretty white, I'll have to look at them in that mode again tonight. I'll check what % they extinguish at then too Just built a new house and tried every brand I could find at home depot and lowes. Dimmers are 2477d's. I ended up buying a bunch of these from amazon. Perhaps they don't dim down the lowest, but no flickering for me. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07GZ7ZJXV?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_dt_b_product_details Paul 1
larryllix Posted January 18, 2021 Posted January 18, 2021 1 hour ago, MrBill said: I just played with one 100 Watt equivalent A19 style that I can see from my laptop it seemed to go completely out at 6 or 7% I didn't go take the shade off tho so that I could actually see the bulb, that's plugged into a lamplinc plug in module. The difference made me wonder of age or hardware revision of Insteon made a difference. When we originally bought the A19's I set up a demo with a 100 watt incandescent side by side. The warm glow did get yellower faster, or more specifically at higher dim level, but with each at 100% neither my wife or I could see much difference. (She used to own a lamp and lighting store and is pickier than I am about color temp) The candelabra style bulbs that I have are really only used in carriage lights outside and come on at 15% from Sunset to Sunrise. They very warm in color, in emergency mode they do shoot up to 100% and my memory is pretty white, I'll have to look at them in that mode again tonight. I'll check what % they extinguish at then too This was the three pack of 60W candelabra bulbs with medium base. I couldn't believe these were the bulbs many have recommended!! For colour the tested two bulbs were beside 3500K GE LED bulbs so the may have looked much deeper yellow. For usable level and dimmer capabilities, the other five GE LED bulbs drop out about 9-10% on that SwitchLinc Dimmer. I use them at 12% to guarantee they light from Off. The two Warm Glow bulbs wouldn't light at all from cold or even dimmed down from full on. I just couldn't believe the response I was getting from these bulbs. Very disappointing. More experimenting once our current heavy lockdown is over. HD will only hand things out the door, so no browsing products right now.
Screw Loose Dan Posted January 18, 2021 Posted January 18, 2021 2 hours ago, MrBill said: The difference made me wonder of age or hardware revision of Insteon made a difference. I would think the bulbs and their raw components probably change at least as often, if not even more frequently.
lilyoyo1 Posted January 18, 2021 Posted January 18, 2021 I use warm glows as well in all my homes without issue. They dim lowest of any led bulb I've tested over the years and I like the way they become warmer. Obviously it's far from being like an incandescent bulb but the effect makes them much more enjoyable than standard led bulbs when you dim them. I have found their b12 bulbs that looks like a crown inside works better than the other style. Other than that, they've been spot on across the line in regards to performance 2
larryllix Posted January 19, 2021 Posted January 19, 2021 2 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said: I use warm glows as well in all my homes without issue. They dim lowest of any led bulb I've tested over the years and I like the way they become warmer. Obviously it's far from being like an incandescent bulb but the effect makes them much more enjoyable than standard led bulbs when you dim them. I have found their b12 bulbs that looks like a crown inside works better than the other style. Other than that, they've been spot on across the line in regards to performance Yeah, these WarmGlow bulbs are the clear LED filament looking types. The GE LEDs are the crown style mantle type..but not any colour change.
lilyoyo1 Posted January 19, 2021 Posted January 19, 2021 2 hours ago, larryllix said: Yeah, these WarmGlow bulbs are the clear LED filament looking types. The GE LEDs are the crown style mantle type..but not any colour change. Philips has a warm glow version as well. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B017RX1JES/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_fabc_SUKbGb263JRJ2
Buzzhazz Posted January 19, 2021 Author Posted January 19, 2021 Here's an update: I originally posted that I was using brand name LEDs in my two sets of lights that were flickering. That was not accurate. During replacement of those bulbs with Philips Warm Glow lights, I discovered I had used TCP branded BR30s and NewLeaf A19s for the front porch, both provided at a discount through the energy company. You get what you pay for. When I replaced the bulbs, the flickering issue was resolved, and I love the warm glow effect as the bulbs dim. On what APPEARS to be a related note, I created a new scene last night to turn all the lights off only on the main level. Two Insteon dimmers would not take the update, and the ISY Write to Device effort would time out. I tried for a long time last night and again this morning. After I replaced the TCP bulbs with the Philips bulbs, I decided to try again. The Writes too almost immediately. The two switches in question were physically located near the KPL where I had flickering lights and on the same circuit. It's anecdotal, but is it possible that the cheap bulbs were somehow (even when off) interfering with the Write process? Thanks for the advice! You guys are great!
palayman Posted January 19, 2021 Posted January 19, 2021 20 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said: I have found their b12 bulbs that looks like a crown inside works better than the other style I tried those and they seemed to dim well and not flicker. Problem I had was the crown disperses most light up or horizontally. I have several chandeliers that are 15 feet or so off the ground intended to light my foyer etc. Not much light directed down, so it was pretty dim despite there being 10 or 12 bulbs in the fixture. Has anyone gotten their hands on any of the Dubai bulbs? They have 4 times as many LED's per Lumen to run really cool and a better voltage regulator circuit. A Dubai government mandate. Would be interesting to see how they dim. https://www.mea.lighting.philips.com/consumer/dubai-lamp
larryllix Posted January 19, 2021 Posted January 19, 2021 (edited) 16 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said: Philips has a warm glow version as well. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B017RX1JES/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_fabc_SUKbGb263JRJ2 Thanks.. but I don't know of any other brand of bulbs called "Warm Glow" and apparently those Philips units aren't available anymore either. I needed at least 60W equiv. 40W and so yellow is just too dim for this application. Amazon.ca shows the medium base for $44 each. That means they are holding the advertising space but don;t really have any. I ordered mine from HD as they were the only ones that actually had them. Now they sit on my "returns table" waiting for the store to re-open. LOL Edited January 19, 2021 by larryllix
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