IndyMike Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 Hi Joe, Glad to hear you're in contact with Michel. He's a wealth of information and first hand experience. It also sounds as if we agree on the excess Accesspoints. Your Leviton HCA02 may have had a passive bridge circuit in addition to the active repeater (I haven't seen a schematic). If so, it may have been helping even though it can't repeat (amplify) the Insteon signal. Even so, I would not re-install this device - there are some documented issues with it locking up with X10 dim commands. To good news is that you should be able to install a passive coupler in the same location near the panel. If you have zero x10 devices installed you can use the Insteon coupler: http://www.smarthome.com/2406H/SignaLinc-INSTEON-Phase-Coupler-Hardwired/p.aspx If you do have X10 devices (or may try them in the future) the x10 coupler should work as well: 12/20/09 Edit - The original link for the X10 coupler was for a SH 4815x. This was incorrect. I had intended to link a SH 4816 wire in coupler. These are apparently no longer available from SH. The 4816 is similar to the Insteon 2406 above with slightly different tuning (for Insteon). See Brian H comments below. The X10 and Insteon frequencies are very close. I use an X10 coupler because I have a mixed X10/Insteon system and the X10 needs all the help it can get. Search around on price - the link I posted seems rather high. Assuming that your HCA02 was installed in a triple wide box, you should be able to install two duplex outlets (one on each phase) along with the passive coupler. Plug your accesspoints into the duplex outlets and you should have a pretty robust install. If you can locate the PLM in the same location, I'd call it optimal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkraus Posted December 18, 2009 Author Share Posted December 18, 2009 Great! Thanks! However why do you say no X10 for the device on the first link when it specifically says Insteon AND X10? Also, why do you then put APs right there, as you do not need APs at all cause now you are solidly linked except if have Remorelinc or Motion sensor and then it would seem you would want the APs closer to where those devices are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyMike Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 Hi Joe, The two units are a bit different in their "tuned" frequencies. 1) The Insteon coupler is tuned to 131.65 Khz. 2) The X10 coupler is tuned to 120 Khz. Given that Insteon units repeat commands on the powerline (X10 does not), the X10 coupler should not make a huge difference in an Insteon system (I use one). In contrast, X10 needs all the signal that it can get. If you plan on using X10 in the future, get the X10 coupler. In regard to your question on the placement of the AP's - they would provide a powerline repeater for the signal being coupled by the passive signalinc. Coupling the signal across the phases solves half the problem. You still need an insteon repeater in the vicinity to retransmit (powerline) the signal to your other devices. They are not necessary if you have another Insteon device in the vicinity (any Insteon device will repeat the signal). Does that help? IM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkraus Posted December 19, 2009 Author Share Posted December 19, 2009 gotcha! Great! Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian H Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 The first Link looks like a series tuned coupler. Probably a capacitor and a coil in series from phase to phase. It is tuned to the Insteon Power Line frequency of 131.65 KHz but I would expect it to be not that sharply tuned that the X10 120 KHz would not also pass through it. My X10 Smarthome Dryer Outlet passive coupler had no problems also passing the Insteon signals. It had a series tuned capacitor and coil in it. I even retuned one for Insteon by replacing the 18uH coil with a 15uH coil. Not much difference in results. The second link looks like a set of tuned transformers as it uses a Neutral also. That one maybe more sharply tuned to the X10 signals. I have seen the HCA02 as a problem with some X10 controllers like the CM15A. I have an XTB-IIR from JV Engineering. It blasts the X10 signal back to the power line at about 20 VPP. It also knows Insteon signals and will not step on then. Though it does not resend Insteon signals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyMike Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 Brian, Good catch on the 4815 link. I chose the wrong coupler (I've modified the post). SH had previously made a 4816 wire in coupler that used the same components as your plug in unit. I can't seem to find these on their site anymore. You are also correct that the 4815 may have a narrower passband than the simple L-C circuit in the 4816. Given that fact the Insteon tuned 2406 would probably be a better selection to cover both Insteon and X10. although I didn't specifically state it, I'm assuming that Joe has a rather lengthy 220V run to his plug in coupler. This can lead to significant signal attenuation. I would much rather see the coupling performed at the panel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian H Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 Yes a long run to the coupler can add lots of extra losses. Near the Breaker Panels is a better place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkraus Posted December 21, 2009 Author Share Posted December 21, 2009 good, as it is the 2406 I ordered! The reality is I have a main panel that has a "Dryer Breaker" and a "rest of House Breaker" So they are on differnt "legs" I reinstalled the dryer plug in coupler and it has helped a lot! Still not perfect so orderd the 2406 which will be attached/near at my sub panel i.e. effecting all my insteon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkraus Posted January 4, 2010 Author Share Posted January 4, 2010 just and update: installed the phase/leg coupler as discussed and so far I have seen 100% reliability. I do not think it is enough time to declare total victory, but definitely a huge improvement! Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michel Kohanim Posted January 5, 2010 Share Posted January 5, 2010 Hi jkraus, This is excellent news regardless of the level of victory! Thanks so very much for the update. With kind regards, Michel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkraus Posted January 5, 2010 Author Share Posted January 5, 2010 thanks I have been slowly removing APs to my success, next trying to remove the mutiple "repeates and waits" I have in many programs and see if any detrimental behavior, will let you know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bktong Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 Hey, What are the results after you put in the 2406H coupler? I'm about to install one but trying to buy the right breaker for my panel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkraus Posted January 7, 2010 Author Share Posted January 7, 2010 just some background first: Prior to installing Insteon I had an X10 system with lots of problems, so I had a Passive plug in dryer leg coupler AND an active X10 coupler in the panel. After moving to Insteon I was having pretty good results with Insteon, but not perfect. Kept adding APs and it helped but still not 100%. On advice here I removed both the plug in dryer coupler as well as the one in the panel. That is when all hell broke loose..well actually not all that bad because coincidentally I had some problems with water getting in one of my outside boxes which contributed to the diagnosis problem anyway, I reinstalled the dryer plug in and got back maybe 30%. Then installed the panel coupler and got the other 69% I say 69% because I cannot say that it is 100% until I have more time, but so far I have not missed any Inteon transactions, so it appears pretty good! Even more recently I pulled out of my programs the "repeat and wait" bandages I had as well as removed half of the AP, and although this was done only a couple of days ago, so far so good Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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