3 way switch wiring - how hard could it be I asked?

[SteveKlos]

Folks,

First up - I did something stupid.  I took the switches off a 3 way connection without taking a picture of the wiring on both sides.  How hard could it be I asked - a 3 way switch circuit is easy - I've actually wired a few, but not like this...

Once the breaker was off and I'd pulled the switches, I capped the wires and checked for power on each of the lines.  Because there is no line to the breaker box from either switch, the power must be going into one of the light J-boxes, then heading to each switch location.  As a piece of this puzzle, the lights and the breaker box for the lights are in the shed, so I'm fairly certain that the actual load wire is located in the shed.

What's odd from my perspective is that the 4 wire set going into the shed has 1 hot wire and the 4 wire set going into the garage has 2 hot wires (hot wires ID'd with a Klein NCVT-2 setup in NCVT-1 mode  - 110 volt ID only).  Unfortunately, I have no idea which light J-box the power goes into - so I can't see how the wires are interconnected (if I could, this forum topic would not be being written).  Edit here - I think I may know which fixture I need to look at, so will review later this week.

Both locations have 4 wires - white, black, red and ground.  Clearly, the whites are not necessarily neutral wires as one of them in the garage is hot.

The image (attached) shows the basic setup in the switch boxes.  I'm nearly certain that the wiring will be a relatively standard wiring setup - everything else I've seen in the shed is a more modern wiring standard than what's in the house.  Having said that, there are no indicators on the white wire in the garage that indicate that's it's not a neutral wire...

Does anyone have any idea what the J-Box for the lights might look like from a wiring perspective to have these two (and there are only two) switches have the 110 volt wires setup as they are?  Due to the nature of the setup where the lights are on the shed, a breaker box (with the light breaker) is in the shed and one of the light switches is in the shed, I'd expect that the load wire would also be in the shed.  If I could simply get the shed switch working independently of what's in the garage, I could then setup a separate switch that would be a controller for the shed switch - so that part, I believe, would be pretty straight-forward.  

I'm just not able to piece together how the power is wired into the J-Box with the lights and the wires that are going to the two switches.  Can anyone provide a guess?

Many thanks and good karma going your way if you can help!

Thanks!

Edited October 5, 2021 by SteveKlos
simple editing for clarity.

[larryllix]

From your description it sounds like somebody wired to the light box first and was switching the neutral. Bad wiring and should be corrected.

Your diagram doesn't seem to agree with your text. You have the red wire in each 3 wire cable marked with 120 volt (live) despite your text saying none is present???

[lilyoyo1]

7 hours ago, SteveKlos said:

Folks,

First up - I did something stupid.  I took the switches off a 3 way connection without taking a picture of the wiring on both sides.  How hard could it be I asked - a 3 way switch circuit is easy - I've actually wired a few, but not like this...

Once the breaker was out and I'd pulled the switches, I capped the wires and checked for power on each of the lines.  Because there is no line to the breaker box from either switch, the power must be going into one of the light J-boxes, then heading to the switch.  As a piece of this puzzle, the lights and the breaker box for the lights are in the shed, so I'm fairly certain that the actual load wire is located in the shed.

What's odd from my perspective is that the 4 wire set going into the shed has 1 hot wire and the 4 wire set going into the garage has 2 hot wires (hot wires ID'd with a Klein NCVT-2 setup in NCVT-1 mode (110 volt ID only).  Unfortunately, I have no idea which light J-box the power goes into - so I can't see how the wires are interconnected (if I could, this forum topic would not be being written).

Both locations have 4 wires - white, black, red and ground.  Clearly, the whites are not the neutral wire as one of them in the garage is hot.

The image (attached) shows the basic setup in the switch boxes.  I'm nearly certain that the wiring will be a relatively standard wiring setup - everything else I've seen in the shed is a more modern wiring standard than what's in the house.  Having said that, there are not indicators on the white wire in the garage that indicate that's it's not a neutral wire...

Does anyone have any idea what the J-Box for the lights might look like from a wiring perspective to have these two (and there are only two) switches have the 110 volt wires setup as they are?  Due to the nature of the setup where the lights are on the shed, a breaker box (with the light breaker) is in the shed and one of the light switches is in the shed, I'd expect that the load wire would also be in the shed.  If I could simply get the shed switch working independently of what's in the garage, I could then setup a separate switch that would be a controller for the shed switch - so that part, I believe, would be pretty straight-forward.  

I'm just not able to piece together how the power is wired into the J-Box with the lights and the wires that are going to the two switches.  Can anyone provide a guess?

Many thanks and good karma going your way if you can help!

Thanks!

I would recommend getting an electrician to verify your wiring as your diagram and what you state do not add up. If your diagram is correct, you need one anyway as you shouldnt have 110 on the neutral

Edited October 5, 2021 by lilyoyo1

[MrBill]

Are you using a meter or hot stick to detect power?  I suspect hot stick... and i suspect it's finding stray ghost voltages created by induction.  Based on the colors of your diagram power must feed to the fixture location first since there is only a single /3 (+ground) entering each box.

Note this diagram has been updated to using /4 cable for current code requirements where neutral is required at each switch location.  In your case you don't have a blue, and the white is used instead.

Also note: in this diagram the travelers are Red/Blue... We don't know what two colors were picked for the traveler function in your shed/garage.

[SteveKlos]

1 hour ago, lilyoyo1 said:

I would recommend getting an electrician to verify your wiring as your diagram and what you state do not add up. If your diagram is correct, you need one anyway as you shouldnt have 110 on the neutral

Thanks Lilyoyo1...

In a 3 way switch, the white wire can be used as a traveler, but it's supposed to be ID'd as such.  I suspect that this could be the case here where the wire simply was not identified with tape or paint as it should have been.

Though I agree with the concept of getting an electrician out, unfortunately, it's difficult to get an electrician scheduled.

After I wrote this, I thought a bit more about the problem and how an electrician would most efficiently wire something like this - I think I know which light the power might be feeding into, so I'll have a look behind that light and see if it sheds any light onto this issue (pun only partially intended :-) ). 

[SteveKlos]

Mr. Bill - I think you may have just ID'd part of what's going on  - and I was today's days old when I've seen that particular diagram for wiring a 3 way switch (even with all the searching I've been doing on the Internet.  Thank you! The oddity for me is that there two of the leads are hot in one of the J-boxes - that doesn't make sense to me.  I am using a hot stick (Klien NCVT-2).  When used in the -2 mode, I do see power - likely via induction, but it's low voltage.  When used in the -1 mode (which ID's only 110 voltage), it seems pretty solid that I have 110 on the wires identified.  I'll use a meter sometime this week to validate, but I've not seen the hot stick give spurious notifications for 110...

As mentioned in another post, I believe I know where the power is likely feeding into the light set, so will have a look at that fixtures J-Box.

Larryllix - you are absolutely correct - what I wrote and what I have in the picture are different...  The picture is correct - I'll edit the text so it mirrors the image - if for no other reason than the next person who has this issue and may find this thread.  Thanks!

Edited October 5, 2021 by SteveKlos

[lilyoyo1]

1 hour ago, SteveKlos said:

Thanks Lilyoyo1...

In a 3 way switch, the white wire can be used as a traveler, but it's supposed to be ID'd as such.  I suspect that this could be the case here where the wire simply was not identified with tape or paint as it should have been.

Though I agree with the concept of getting an electrician out, unfortunately, it's difficult to get an electrician scheduled.

After I wrote this, I thought a bit more about the problem and how an electrician would most efficiently wire something like this - I think I know which light the power might be feeding into, so I'll have a look behind that light and see if it sheds any light onto this issue (pun only partially intended ). 

I am aware that the white wire can be used as a traveler as long as it is ID'd as such. However, on an online forum, I can only go off the information presented to us. After some years in this field, one thing i've learned is not to assume how something is done...especially when it comes to a persons safety.

I wouldnt assume a traveler based on the information provided. If both switches are disconnected, a traveler shouldnt have 110 going to it for you to pick up which tells me it is being used for power which goes against code (was legal at one point but not anymore). 

[SteveKlos]

@lilyoyo1 - I appreciate the comments - and you're very correct that an online forum is not an area where you can make assumptions (it sounds like you've got experience in the field - hopefully I didn't cause you any angst with my comment about a white wire carrying power if the wire is ID'd as not being a neutral)...  You are also especially correct in not assuming how something has been implemented in a system that you can't see - safety when working with electricity is something I'm always hyper aware of (which is why I was working to validate which leads were hot to begin with).

I haven't yet seen a wiring diagram that shows the old code for a 3 way switch like this (where 110 is going across a traveler and where power goes into the light switch fixture, then from that fixture, each switch has one 4 wire Romax going to it).  I've been searching for that, but it's likely buried.  It sounds like you are familiar with electrical codes - at a guess any timeframe on when the old code might have been used (it could help me to narrow down a search to find that approach).

And for anyone following this - I'm not going to use a diagram of the connections to run out and wire up the switches.  I need to find the fixture where power is going in, but if I can view a diagram of such a connection, when I find that fixture, I'll already know what I'm looking for in the connections...

[MrBill]

7 minutes ago, SteveKlos said:

I haven't yet seen a wiring diagram that shows the old code for a 3 way switch like this

In the 70's it was very common for a circuit like in the diagram that I posted above for the white to be the Common terminal of the switch, which made it hot on one end and load on the other end.  that leaves black and red as travelers. 

That logic probably carries forward from other version of the 3-way circuit where load travels back to switch 1 and the only wire left is white.   It also wasn't very common to re-mark a re-purposed wire until the last 15 years or so, even after it was re-emphasized in the code book about 20 years ago, old-timers were slow to adopt.

The important thing to do is not rely on a hot stick, because they do pick up induced voltages--- especially the cheapest versions.    Better versions that have a battery are less prone to induced voltages.  Better versions with a name like Klien or Fluke tend to be less prone to induced voltages.  The $5 hardware store version that doesn't have a battery will light up from the slightest induced voltages.

If I were a guessing, the white you have marked Hot is probably hot, Red and Black are probably the travelers and the white at the other end is likely the load.  BUT that is only a guess.... I'd prove that safely with appropriate test equipment.

 

[Goose66]

I am going to stick with recommending an electrician since it seems that you are unsure.

That said, I'm curious to why the switches were removed in the first place - I don't think your original post said. If the original switches were removed to be replaced with Zwave or Insteon switches, I am hoping your take away here is that the circuit HAS TO BE REWIRED all the way back to the original location of the power and neutral from the breaker in order to make it work, so the current wiring scheme will not be sufficient, even if you could identify it.

Also, non-contact voltage testers are good for keeping you from getting electrocuted, but suck in determining how a circuit is wired. I would suggest a volt meter instead. If your house is in the U.S. and built since the 70s, you can test all wires to ground. 0V to ground will be a neutral, 120V to ground will be a hot (line) and some interim voltage is likely an unpowered traveler.

Edited October 5, 2021 by Goose66

[Goose66]

Also note that the diagram above of the circuit using/requiring 14/4 wire was obviously made before the price of copper got so high! ?

[MrBill]

1 minute ago, Goose66 said:

Also note that the diagram above of the circuit using/requiring 14/4 wire was obviously made before the price of copper got so high! ?

it's a code complaint diagram. Originally appear in the 2011 code cycle, but wasn't widely followed/enforced for a few years as is typical for many code changes.

NEC 404.2(c):

Quote

(C) Switches Controlling Lighting Loads. Where switches
control lighting loads supplied by a grounded general purpose
branch circuit, the grounded circuit conductor for the controlled
lighting circuit shall be provided at the switch location.

Exception: The grounded circuit conductor shall be permitted
to be omitted from the switch enclosure where either
of the following conditions in (1) or (2) apply:
(1) Conductors for switches controlling lighting loads enter
the box through a raceway. The raceway shall have
suffıcient cross-sectional area to accommodate the extension
of the grounded circuit conductor of the lighting
circuit to the switch location whether or not the
conductors in the raceway are required to be increased
in size to comply with 310.15(B)(3)(a).
(2) Cable assemblies for switches controlling lighting
loads enter the box through a framing cavity that is
open at the top or bottom on the same floor level, or
through a wall, floor, or ceiling that is unfinished on
one side.

Note:  When reading the NEC codebook, "grounded circuit conductor" refers to Neutral, while "grounding circuit conductor" refers to the Safety ground (bare or green).  What's the hot wire?  that would be the "ungrounded circuit conductor".

[Goose66]

I'm just saying that creates a lot of additional expense for 3-way circuits over traditional use of 14/3 wire with the addition of a little electrical tape on the white wire.

Edited October 6, 2021 by Goose66

[MrBill]

13 minutes ago, Goose66 said:

I'm just saying that creates a lot of additional expense for 3-way circuits over traditional use of 14/3 wire with the addition of a little electrical tape on the white wire.

You're missing the point.  Code now requires neutral to be run to each switch location (whether it's needed or used initially).  When the requirement was added to code the discussion specifically centered around the fact many people were installing smart switches that required neutral. Where neutral wasn't present, the switches neutral was often connected to the grounding conductor (green/bare), which will make the switch work, the grounding conductor was never intended to be used as a current carrying conductor.  Doing so can create an unsafe condition.

In many cases, following the code requirement requires /4 between the switches.  For the diagram I pasted above there is no way to be code compliant without running the extra unused conductor (why? because someone might someday want to install switches requiring neutral).  The exception is the classic basic 3-way where Hot/Neutral enters the circuit at switch 1 and the switched load/neutral leaves at the switch 2 location, in that case neutral does exist at both locations by default.   In many of the other 3-way configurations /4 must be used to comply with code requiring neutral at each switch location.    (code also requires that Hot and Neutral run in the same cable or raceway, meaning that neutral can't be "borrowed" from the switch next door in the same box unless both switches are fed by the same physical piece of romex at the location. 

I agree that the price of romex is extraordinary today, but the statement that the drawing was made before the current cost of copper has no bearing... Neutral is required by code at each switch location, in the case of power fed first to the fixture (as the diagram above) there is no way to create a code compliant circuit without using /4 to the switch locations.

[Goose66]

I'm not arguing code with you - just making an attempt at humor.

Code has it's uses, one of the primary ones being that electricians aren't generally electrical engineers. But in this case the code creates an unnecessary expense, IMO, because if smart switches are being installed (requiring the neutral), then the travelers are no longer needed. Regardless, smart switches can be installed in the OPs circuit using the existing wiring just fine, as long as it is rewired all the way back to the source.

Edited October 6, 2021 by Goose66

[apostolakisl]

An electrician could probably look at this and figure out very quickly what wires are what.  The novice will get confused and it is difficult to communicate these things over a forum.  A simple, but slightly tedious process can be undertaken to figure it out without requiring any of the intuition achieved from experience.

 

Turn off the Power of course

1) Open up all switch boxes and fixture boxes involved.

2) Disconnect every single splice/fixture so you just have individual wires poking out and not touching anything.

3) Clip your ohm meter to two wires (might choose black and bare ground) that are in the same jacket at any of the locations.  Select the ohm meter to make a tone on short.

4) Now go one by one through your other locations and tap together <black and bare ground> wires until you hear your ohm meter beeping.  Now you have established one run of wire.  

5) Label the wires and move onto the next set of jacketed wires until you have tracked down each run of wire.

Once you know every run of wire, the rest should be easy.

[lilyoyo1]

The problem with telling someone with limited electrical wiring how to work around code is that they can end up digging themselves into a bigger hole making things more costly to fix and dangerous. 

[Goose66]

I don't think anybody has suggested working around code. Installing smart switches here with the existing wire would not violate any code, again, as long as the entire circuit was rewired back to the source.

[MrBill]

1 hour ago, Goose66 said:

as long as it is rewired all the way back to the source.

Code doesn't provide for re-wiring the circuit to get neutral later.  Yes, when you install Insteon there is no use for either traveler.  Other systems may use one of the travelers as a traveler or other interconnect, freeing up one of the original travelers.  Code doesn't say you can rewire the circuit to provide neutral at the switch location, instead code says:

3 hours ago, MrBill said:

Where switches control lighting loads supplied by a grounded general purpose branch circuit, the grounded circuit conductor for the controlled lighting circuit shall be provided at the switch location.

Note again: when reading the NEC you must read "grounded circuit conductor" as the word "neutral".

None of the exceptions to 404.2(c) say, "except where you can rewire the circuit later to create a neutral".  That has always been possible, yet code was changed to say "shall be provided at the switch location." which doesn't leave room for interpretation that the circuit can later be re-configured to comply. 

45 minutes ago, Goose66 said:

I don't think anybody has suggested working around code. Installing smart switches here with the existing wire would not violate any code, again, as long as the entire circuit was rewired back to the source.

Except that is exactly what you're suggesting.  Under current code, the neutral wire must be present in all switch locations without re-wiring the circuit, even if that means capping an used neutral.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1 hour ago, lilyoyo1 said:

The problem with telling someone with limited electrical wiring how to work around code is that they can end up digging themselves into a bigger hole making things more costly to fix and dangerous. 

This code change was made exactly because it was understood that someone with limited electrical wiring knowledge could be installing smart switches.  It was also becoming all too common for people to find online postings that said: "connect the white wire from the switch to the bare.. It will work", yes it does make the switch work,  but it also compromises the safety ground.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1 hour ago, apostolakisl said:

2) Disconnect every single splice/fixture so you just have individual wires poking out and not touching anything.

I would never give that piece of advice to anyone.  My (adult) son recently did exactly that and then thought he found "the mistake" in a box ahead of what he was working in, before he knew it he had two circuits on opposite phases combined, with romex heating up and trying to melt before the breaker tripped. (that's the point where he called me) There was no "mistake" originally.  All he was trying to do was install a motion sensor in place of a switch, the motion sensor required neutral (which was present) but somehow he took everything in the switch apart, an unrelated switch and unrelated fixture apart.  I literally spent just over an hour after I got there figuring out what was what... and I'm fast and experienced with wiring methods. In the aftermath I asked him some why questions, and he said he successfully did a motion in a different location, "except there weren't as many wires in that one".

The piece of advice that I would give anyone attempting to change a switch is:

1.  Before unconnecting or unwiring anything take good quality pictures that show exactly how everything is connected.  Take more than one... don't leave anything out, show where literally every wire is connected.  If there could be confusion about "which black wire" then add labels or markers to remove the confusion before taking the pictures.

At the very least they can put it back the way it was before, then seek outside help.  Anyone that takes the project on themselves has already made the self-assessment that they think they know what to do.  Once it works out differently than they expected the pictures have amazing value.

[SteveKlos]

Thanks everyone for the comments!

I'll know more once I find the fixture that has power going to it, but upon reflection, what I'll be doing is re-wiring the existing setup so that there is only one smart switch in the shed - that's properly configured (and labeled).  In the Garage, there is no need for a switch, so I'll cap off the wires, include a label that indicates where the wires go (in case anyone in the future cares - or I become senile and decide I need to "fix" the old switch ?). Then I'll put a cover over the secondary switch area.

The whole point of a smart switch is to enable automation and convenience.  The three way switch in the Garage was poorly located anyway, so would be unlikely to be used in any situation I can think of.

Now, I just need time to make the changes...  

[Goose66]

@MrBill I don't know where this became so unnecessarily complex. If the OP rewires the circuit, most likely in the j-box at one of the fixtures, to have line (black) and neutral (white) go into each switch box, uses the red wire for load from one of the smart switches back to the light, and caps the red going to the other smart switch, then, bam, all good and to code - no fuss. Any suggestion that once you use a white wire as a traveler you can never go back and rewire it be a neutral is simply absurd.

Edited October 6, 2021 by Goose66

[SteveKlos]

 

Quote

 

1.  Before unconnecting or unwiring anything take good quality pictures that show exactly how everything is connected.  Take more than one... don't leave anything out, show where literally every wire is connected.  If there could be confusion about "which black wire" then add labels or markers to remove the confusion before taking the pictures.

At the very least they can put it back the way it was before, then seek outside help.  Anyone that takes the project on themselves has already made the self-assessment that they think they know what to do.  Once it works out differently than they expected the pictures have amazing value.

 

@MrBill,

Could not agree more - in fact in my original post I fessed up immediately to say I didn't take pictures because I thought I knew what I'd find.

Also in case anyone is concerned I don't do work on electrical things unless I know what I'm doing and why...  And my post here was frankly a laziness on my part to not have to re-wire.  As I have watched the discussion ensue, I realized - yeah, I need to take the time to re-wire - it'll be safer, will be up to code and I can leave a label maker note in the capped off 3way switch box that indicates where the wires go in the case that a future owner of the house is ever curious.

Having said that - thank you to all who responded!

 

[apostolakisl]

17 minutes ago, MrBill said:

 

I would never give that piece of advice to anyone.  My (adult) son recently did exactly that and then thought he found "the mistake" in a box ahead of what he was working in, before he knew it he had two circuits on opposite phases combined, with romex heating up and trying to melt before the breaker tripped. (that's the point where he called me) There was no "mistake" originally.  All he was trying to do was install a motion sensor in place of a switch, the motion sensor required neutral (which was present) but somehow he took everything in the switch apart, an unrelated switch and unrelated fixture apart.  I literally spent just over an hour after I got there figuring out what was what... and I'm fast and experienced with wiring methods. In the aftermath I asked him some why questions, and he said he successfully did a motion in a different location, "except there weren't as many wires in that one".

The piece of advice that I would give anyone attempting to change a switch is:

1.  Before unconnecting or unwiring anything take good quality pictures that show exactly how everything is connected.  Take more than one... don't leave anything out, show where literally every wire is connected.  If there could be confusion about "which black wire" then add labels or markers to remove the confusion before taking the pictures.

At the very least they can put it back the way it was before, then seek outside help.  Anyone that takes the project on themselves has already made the self-assessment that they think they know what to do.  Once it works out differently than they expected the pictures have amazing value.

He didn't do what I said or, despite tracing out the wires and knowing where they go, did something quite clueless in splicing two hots together from different circuits.   I would assume he did not trace out the wires but rather just started hooking things up wrong.  Plus, he would have had to shut off two breakers to get the power off, another clue.  I would also suggest replacing your sons breakers.  If they didn't trip prior to melting wire then they are bad.

It is very unlikely that two different circuits are going to the same switchbox.  If the switchbox is handling many switches, the chances go up, but if there is only one switch, then chances are pretty much zero.  Even if there are lots of switches, it would be very rare that two circuits are feeding it.  

Nothing wrong with taking pictures and I highly encourage (do it myself all the time), but the cat is out of the bag on this one.  He already didn't take pictures and disconnected.

Knowledge of the wire runs is never a bad thing and with said knowledge you then correctly connect them. 

[SteveKlos]

@Goose66 - I'm going to basically do what you suggested, but it feels really odd to have a hot and neutral, but no load going into the switch location in the garage since this would ONLY be useful for a smart switch.  I also wouldn't want someone installing something else in that location (such as a plug) as it would not be obvious which breaker the location in the garage is associated with.  But I do agree that I can re-wire the existing setup and keep it to code.

[Goose66]

If you aren't going to put a smart switch in the garage, then fine. But I'm OCD, so if there were a three-way switch in there before, I would want a smart switch operating as a scene controller (slave) in there now. Another advantage of this is that it could work as a bridge from the house Insteon network to the shed Insteon network, since they appear to be on different breaker boxes (although the shed breaker box is probably already downstream of a main one in your house). Or, you could take the opportunity to put an Insteon Keypad in and control lots of stuff in the backyard from the garage.

Edited October 6, 2021 by Goose66