KPL Load not responding to scene controlled from another button on the same KPL - known issue?

[dywicked]

I’ve been using Insteon and Keypadlincs for ages and I’ve never run into this, but I’ve run into something odd while working on a new setup for a friend. Basically, there’s a scene which in addition to a couple of other keypadlincs, has the top left button of a Keypadlinc dimmer(8 button) as a responder - this is connected to the load. There is another button (bottom right) on the same Keypadlinc which is set as a controller for this scene. The strange thing is when I use this button to control scene, all other devices respond except for the local load. When controlling this scene from any other Keypadlinc, all is well. The local load won’t turn on or off under these conditions and behaves the same with or without a connected load. I can reproduce this behavior on two different scenes with completely different devices involved. The final strange thing, is if I choose a button other than the H (bottom right) as the controller, everything works as expected. The two 8 button Keypadlincs I’m using to verify against each other both report back 4.5, but one is a 6 button that has been switched to an 8 button configuration, while the other is “natively” 8 button”. Perhaps I’ve just forgotten something really obvious after all this time?

 

I also saw the following on the UDI http:// https://wiki.universal-devices.com/index.php?title=ISY-99i/ISY-26_INSTEON:Linking_a_KeypadLinc and I wonder if it’s related:

 

“A KPL cannot turn it's load completely off when a secondary button includes it in a scene and the scene is called On. It will be better to use it without a load if you plan scenes that turn the connected lights off. But convenience should be a concern as well.

As a work-around the ISY can be used to set the level to 1%”

 

Any help is appreciated.

 

Best,

 

-David

[MrBill]

I typically use button H as an "all off" and I've not run into this, and I can think of several instances where the all off scene would include button A of the same keypad being used as the load.  My H buttons are programed as Non-toggle Off.

Another thing I noted while reading your wiki quote is that the use of English was poor, and leaves me confused as to the meaning:

“A KPL cannot turn it's load completely off when a secondary button includes it in a scene and the scene is called On. It will be better to use it without a load if you plan scenes that turn the connected lights off. But convenience should be a concern as well."

What does "called" in that context mean?  It sounds like if the scene is named On then the portion of the sentence before the word and applies.  However, I've never heard of a scene's name having issues, and in fact... the switch doesn't actually know the scene by a name.  On the other hand if called means the On command was being transmitted that would have to mean button A is inverted in the scene meaning when the scene H is On, the responder A turns off and that action can't be done, but you could dim A to 1% instead.

At any rate the last time that wiki page was edited was 2013 and the sentence quoted was part of the original page when it was created 2/22/2009... so it's old text, what vintage are the keypads? new? or very old?

 

[dywicked]

I typically use button H as an "all off" and I've not run into this, and I can think of several instances where the all off scene would include button A of the same keypad being used as the load.  My H buttons are programed as Non-toggle Off.
Another thing I noted while reading your wiki quote is that the use of English was poor, and leaves me confused as to the meaning:
“A KPL cannot turn it's load completely off when a secondary button includes it in a scene and the scene is called On. It will be better to use it without a load if you plan scenes that turn the connected lights off. But convenience should be a concern as well."
What does "called" in that context mean?  It sounds like if the scene is named On then the portion of the sentence before the word and applies.  However, I've never heard of a scene's name having issues, and in fact... the switch doesn't actually know the scene by a name.  On the other hand if called means the On command was being transmitted that would have to mean button A is inverted in the scene meaning when the scene H is On, the responder A turns off and that action can't be done, but you could dim A to 1% instead.
At any rate the last time that wiki page was edited was 2013 and the sentence quoted was part of the original page when it was created 2/22/2009... so it's old text, what vintage are the keypads? new? or very old?
 

Yeah, I found the language confusing as well - I interpreted “Call” as “Commanded”, but not with high confidence. Like you, I’ve used the button this way many times before. In this case, it’s All On/Off/dim, etc. These are brand new Keypads delivered straight from Smarthome in the last week. They report as version 4.5 in the ISY console.

[stillwater]

I had this problem with a particular KPL.  Nothing I could do would fix it, but changing the communication mode in the scene dialog (I think from Insteon to Command or something like that) turned the connected load on and off most of the time, though with an annoying delay.   I had another KPL right next to it so I moved the button to that one (This one's load was not a member of the scene.)   I reported this on the forum at one point but I can't find it now.   I have other KPLs that have analogous configurations that work fine.  It's weird. 

[stillwater]

Looking through my emails I find that on December 31 2018 in a thread I opened called "KPL Scene weirdness" I said I couldn't be sure but that this behavior seemed to have started with an upgrade from version 4 to version 5. 

 @IndyMike found similar behavior on his system and @Michel Kohanimresponded:

"@IndyMike,

Thanks so very much for the verification. #648.

With kind regards,
Michel"

I thought at the time this meant that this was assigned a bug tracking # (648) but I don't know for sure that was what this meant

I was able to make it sort of work by using the communications mode "Command" rather than "Insteon" but there was an annoying delay in turning on and off the load.    It's also possible to program the ISY to monitor the buttons and correct the scene -- or to do the "scene" entirely as a program in ISY. 

 

All the obvious things did not work -- factory resetting the KPL, restoring the KPL from ISY, Restoring the PLM, changing the PLM, etc.  did not work.  The scene works from other KPLs and from the admin console.   My system generally does not have communication problems.   So it's just weird.  

 

[Michel Kohanim]

@stillwater,

648 was not reproducible. But, now, I can reproduce it 100% of the time in our kitchen: there's a 2-3 seconds delay between on/off and the load turning on/off. This behavior developed immediately after a power outage. So, I guarantee you that the issue is just the switch.

With kind regards,
Michel

[stillwater]

Thanks @Michel Kohanim 

I just compared the ISY and Device links table for a currently offending KPL .  It turns out there was a mismatch in one link. Doing a restore device cleared up the discrepancy (all links now read identical in the compare function) but did not change the  behavior.  

Is it possible that the KPLs (not the PLM) or the KPL link tables in ISY have a limited capacity to store links and this symptom is the result of me trying to exceed this capacity?  The "count" of links in this KPL is 103. 

The KPL in question has  one scene (on button C) that includes the load that  works fine in turning the load on and off and another, larger, scene (on button D) that also includes the load does not turn the load on and off when turned on/off from this KPL button D.   The scene works fine when turned on/off from the admin console or from buttons on multiple other KPLs.  Communication link type is set to Insteon for all scene elements.   I've tried factory resets to everything.  The only things (that I can think of) that I haven't tried are (a) reducing the number of buttons controlling the scene and (b) deleting the scene and recreating it.  

[stillwater]

I fixed the problem.  For @dywicked this is what I found:

I finally remembered to look at the screen in the admin console for the controller button in question.   This isn't displayed on the main scene page -- you have to go to the controller button entry (in red) under the scene on the left main pane.   On mine the communication type was somehow set to Default rather than Insteon.   I changed it to Insteon  (press Update after) and made sure that the entry in the main matrix for the load  was set to 100% with the preferred ramp rate and not 9 minutes... 

@Michel Kohanim Never mind the previous question.  

It's likely the only problem was operator error... 

[JoelW]

Can anyone clarify these settings in the scenes.

What and when should I use the different options: Default, Insteon, Command, Ignore.

[lilyoyo1]

19 hours ago, JoelW said:

Can anyone clarify these settings in the scenes.

What and when should I use the different options: Default, Insteon, Command, Ignore.

https://wiki.universal-devices.com/index.php?title=ISY_Developers:API:V5:Scene_Support:Scenes 

https://wiki.universal-devices.com/index.php?title=ISY_Users:V5:ZWave:Advanced_User_Guide:Scenes

 

Edited February 5, 2022 by lilyoyo1