Is RadioRA3 the Ultimate Replacement For Insteon?

[simplextech]

22 hours ago, Michel Kohanim said:

Please elaborate what exactly do you mean by this very broad, generic, and pretty much untrue statement. PG3 is under development but it has absolutely nothing to do with the OS and runtime. Perhaps you're confusing it with RPi? 

So the packages mirrored into the UD (pkg.isy.io) repositories are tested for interoperability and conflicts before being pushed into the "latest" repo which is used by Polisy?  A typical process is to mirror updates from upstream and run them in house and perform testing before release.  This release is then published for systems to apply the updates bringing new features and fixes.  The repo's are split by release version and often only critical security fixes are in the frequent update repo and then stability and major bug fixes in the common repo.  This is a fairly standard process for "production" systems. 

Now on the other hand there's the "rolling release" methodology where updates are made available and can be applied as soon as possible.  This allows things to be tested and updated quickly and with a much larger audience.  This is not typical for "production" systems which could incur outages or have reliability/stability issues.  This type of methodology is generally used for development cycles or for cutting edge systems.

Will Polisy release cycles always be a "rolling release" and end users must be aware of this before doing updates as OS level packages will be updated.

You may feel like I'm trying to pick a bone with you but I'm really not.  I'm stating the fact of the matter that Polisy is still under heavy development and yes even at the OS level as requirements of the ISY and PG subsystems are evolving and so must the OS layer.  The OS layer is not simply the kernel but all of those other little packages that lots of other things are dependent on and all of those together form the OS.  The system packages which are used for PG (Python, Node.js) are continuously being updated and introduce incompatibility and breaking changes.  This happens.  This is part of development.

At some point the system packages and development packages such as Python and Node.js will need to be frozen for broad production compatibility and support.  I foresee a development branch of package repos also existing for those living on the bleeding edge or doing extended development work or even some of us building and using our own versions of Python or Node.js to overcome any version limitations of the "System Provided LTS" versions.  We're just not there today and it's going to take a bit of time.  Again I'm not knocking on what exists just pointing out we're not there just yet.

Now on the flip side perhaps getting to a broad supportable system isn't desired.  The ability to flex the system and developers ability to get any package and version they want added or things like Node.js updated for them to any version they want is great.  For them.  Not for the whole ecosystem as those system wide changes to get some new feature can break things for everyone else.  Some sand boxing might be done to provide that level of do whatever freedom for developers but keep the system (default) versions available for LTS.  Now that's a whole new can of worms though.

[upstatemike]

10 hours ago, silverton38 said:

I think Universal Devices should make the ISY telnet compatible to the Lutron stuff (like Hubitat). It could be a reliable best friend to the platform and become to Lutron what it is to Insteon.

But if Lutron is moving from Telnet to SSH with LEAP wouldn't that be a dead end? What is Hubitat doing about the change?

[simplextech]

40 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

What is Hubitat doing about the change?

Hubitat is in the same boat as everyone else when it comes to Ra 3.  They will have to get auth keys from Lutron and re-develop their integration. 

[MrBill]

Telnet is a TCP/IP virtual terminal service.  Telnet transfers data in plain text.

SSH is Secure Shell.  SSH protocol traffic in both directions is encrypted.

[silverton38]

16 hours ago, silverton38 said:

I think Universal Devices should make the ISY telnet compatible to the Lutron stuff (like Hubitat). It could be a reliable best friend to the platform and become to Lutron what it is to Insteon.

Keep in mind the ELK integration is quite similar to this already.

 

[silverton38]

If I can be blunt;  I am an integrator and I need a reliable solution. In the past that was ISY, ELK and Insteon. I could go back to a house hooked up with that a year later and everything was running perfectly. There was a period of time when some switches would go and we all know about the period of time that the PLMs would go. That was an easy fix (thank you to the ISY programmers).

The problem that I have today is replicating this now. The closest I get is the Lutron Caseta/RA2 select solutions. The Lutron side is very reliable but I am need something merge it with ELK and some minor Zigbee and Z-wave (minimal Z-wave due to its reliability issues). I honestly thought that was going to be Hubitat after opening a few installations with Homeseer (learned how temperamental Z-wave can be with Homeseer). Hubitat is not reliable probably because of the bad third party ELK integration. It gets really slow and I have to keep it on an auto reboot nightly. 

I do believe that the ISY can move to this Lutron side, which is becoming the owner the premium side. 

 

Just my thoughts.

 

[simplextech]

6 hours ago, silverton38 said:

If I can be blunt;  I am an integrator

Join the club there's many on here that are integrators.  I deal mainly Lutron, RTI, Elk and ISY.  There's another here that's a C4 guy and several ISY integrators.

6 hours ago, silverton38 said:

The problem that I have today is replicating this now. The closest I get is the Lutron Caseta/RA2 select solutions. The Lutron side is very reliable but I am need something merge it with ELK and some minor Zigbee and Z-wave (minimal Z-wave due to its reliability issues). I honestly thought that was going to be Hubitat after opening a few installations with Homeseer (learned how temperamental Z-wave can be with Homeseer). Hubitat is not reliable probably because of the bad third party ELK integration. It gets really slow and I have to keep it on an auto reboot nightly. 

This whole thing is just making my head spin.  Every professional system out there handles what you've listed and does it very well.  You're extremely brave or a little crazy to deploy a DIY system like HomeSeer (HS4) and especially Hubitat for actual paying customers.  Not trying to pick a fight but that's just wow brave if you're doing that.  I'd go into the poor house from all of the support issues.

The problem with the Z Protocols is not that the protocols have issues.  It's the software implementations on the gateways (hubs/software) that are poorly implemented.

7 hours ago, silverton38 said:

I do believe that the ISY can move to this Lutron side, which is becoming the owner the premium side. 

Nodeservers for Lutron products already exist for PG2 and will eventually be updated for PG3 (as time allows).

[silverton38]

7 hours ago, simplextech said:

Join the club there's many on here that are integrators.  I deal mainly Lutron, RTI, Elk and ISY.  There's another here that's a C4 guy and several ISY integrators.

This whole thing is just making my head spin.  Every professional system out there handles what you've listed and does it very well.  You're extremely brave or a little crazy to deploy a DIY system like HomeSeer (HS4) and especially Hubitat for actual paying customers.  Not trying to pick a fight but that's just wow brave if you're doing that.  I'd go into the poor house from all of the support issues.

I am being pushed in to a corner so I have to find solutions. I can see that most ISY integrators are switching to Lutron so it only makes sense for Universal Devices to "create" a module on its ISY for Lutron similar to the ELK integration(both are telnet). If they did that then we would all be back to ISY>>>Lutron>>>a Little Z-Wave (locks, water valves and thermostats). If I had the perfect wish list Zigbee would also be an option. Zigbee is a more reliable protocol.

 

 

[silverton38]

8 hours ago, simplextech said:

I have never used the Node server but is it reliably ready for a Lutron installation? 

 

[silverton38]

I want to also note. In my 12 years of using the ISY in all my installations. I have lost the power supply and I have lost PLMs but I have never lost an ISY itself. I have also never had one "lock" up on me during that time. Now that is what I consider reliable.

 

 

[silverton38]

8 hours ago, simplextech said:

As for Z-wave I have tried some huge installations with this and it took a lot of work to make it happy. I actually purchased software that allowed me to force the routes through the network; which eventually solved the problems.

Zigbee is a much better protocol for large installations. Z-wave is good for battery operated thermostats and many locks are only Z-wave. You have to make sure the hub is capable of a direct connection to each device for the best performance in small installations. Also anything more then 2 hops is not wise for bigger installations.

 

[lilyoyo1]

8 hours ago, simplextech said:

There's another here that's a C4 guy and several ISY integrators.

 

With Ra3, I love how the switches look so I may become a Lutron guy after all to a certain degree ?.

It looks like it integrates with alarm.com so I'd be able to use it with the Qolsys iq panel. If that's the case, it'll cover my basic needs for integration.

The fact that I can employ the Sunnata dimmers in places the customer doesn't want control over (for uniformity) and cost makes it even more attractive

[DAlter01]

All I can say is "Wow".  The Ra3 system appears to be a fantastic evolution.   Insteon is now one step closer to being the new X10.  I am assuming, of course, that Ra3 will continue the Lutron tradtion of "it just works". 

This is what the Nokia line wants to be.    

[upstatemike]

It is interesting the different groups represented here and the dramatic difference in priorities. While it would be nice to identify the best automation protocol and best controller to serve all or most of these use cases I'm beginning to think there is no chance for that kind of consolidation simply because the requirements are so different and to some extent mutually exlusive.

The first group (in no particular order) is the "Integrators" who are well represented here and who favor super reliable systems that have a low liklihood of generating service calls. This group is well served by protocolos like RadioRA and C3 which are rock solid but don't really do very much. Once you get past setting scenes by varying the relative dim levels of a group of lights and triggering those scens by timers or geofencing or keypad buttons you have pretty much exhausted their bag of tricks. The device selection tends to be limited for retrofit situations where you need to rely on fixture modules and other special parts to complete your install, focusing instead primarily on dimmers, switches, and keypads. The controllers from Lutron, RTI, C4, etc, likewise are reliable but pretty basic in adding security cameras, touch screens, thermostats, and rudimentary music control into the mix but not really doing anything very exciting, whether due to platform limitations or simply by design to keep things simple and avoid service headaches. These systems tend to seem both expensive and incredibly boring to the other groups.

The next group is the "Hardcore Hobbyist". These are the folks flashing light switch firmware with Tasmota, building custom hardware interfaces with Arduinos and Ras-Pi's, sifting through pages of code on Github, and writing their own Node servers. This group will gladly spend hundreds of hours creating a custom $6 module to automate a light switch rather than pay $30 for a plug and play unit from Amazon. This is the group best served by products like Home Assistant, Shelly, and Sonoff, which demand a level of time commitment that the other groups are not interested in making.

Another group is the "Perpetual Entry Level Consumer". These are the folks who go to Home Depot or Best Buy to pick up a few switches or bulbs that will work with Alexa. If they are particularly ambitious they might go for a video doorbell or smart thermostat but they don't want to commit to anything that can't be completed in a weekend and likely will never expand into anything more complex. If they ever do upgrade their system it will just be replaceing what they have with a new set of entry level products. Wi-Fi and Zigbee (Hue) are targeting these folks and this probably also the target demographic for Matter. Because this group is so large and lucrative it has a huge influence on what automation products are produced and what the capabilities and limitations of those products and their associated eco-systems are.

Then there is the "Casual Hobbyist" group. These are the folks using Smarthings or Hubitat or even advanced routines in Alexa. They are looking to do more than the entry level products offer out of the box. They are comfortable with "trigger plus conditions" type logic but do not have the tech savvy or tme to go full "Hardcore Hobbyist". This group uses Z-Wave and Zigbee and higher end Wi-Fi (Lifx) to create cool custom actions to meet their specific needs and are willing to expand and tweak their systems on an ongoing basis but not to the point where it consumes all of their spare time. 

Finally there is the "Prosumer" group. These are folks who like to do fairly elaborate things with Home Automation but not down to the technical level of "Hardcore Hobbyists"  nor at the limited simplistic level of "Casual Hobbyists". They want hardware that works out of the box but also want a logic engine that can handle complex nested "if-then" and "or" commands. They want this extended logic in a GUI interface without having to resort to manual scripting so their time is focused on the logic rather than syntax and debugging. They want to integrate with a wide variety of things beyond wireless protocols and expect dry contact inputs and relay outputs and serial connectivity as well. They are generally comfortable with MQTT and Node Red but not neccessarily Python or Json. This group often starts with Smartthings or Hubitat and then migrates to Homseer or Polisy. 

So what are the upcoming protocols and standards and platforms that are finally going to consolidate the Home Automation universe and end the market fragmentation and uncertainty we are now experiencing? Is improvement even possible without leaving one group or the other abandoned?

[lilyoyo1]

8 hours ago, simplextech said:

Join the club there's many on here that are integrators.  I deal mainly Lutron, RTI, Elk and ISY.  There's another here that's a C4 guy and several ISY integrators.

This whole thing is just making my head spin.  Every professional system out there handles what you've listed and does it very well.  You're extremely brave or a little crazy to deploy a DIY system like HomeSeer (HS4) and especially Hubitat for actual paying customers.  Not trying to pick a fight but that's just wow brave if you're doing that.  I'd go into the poor house from all of the support issues.

The problem with the Z Protocols is not that the protocols have issues.  It's the software implementations on the gateways (hubs/software) that are poorly implemented.

Nodeservers for Lutron products already exist for PG2 and will eventually be updated for PG3 (as time allows).

I'm with you on this one. I'd do insteon with the Isy in low cost installs but those were installations with very basic needs. The builder installed insteon in every home he built and customers could opt for programming as an upgrade or accept the house with standard control. Those systems were priced accordingly and those clients would not have been purchasing high end systems anyway so it didn't matter. 

I don't know how @silverton38prices his systems but either he's leaving alot of money on the table or overcharging by using diy systems for customers. The main reason I like C4 (and high end in general) is margin. I make more on the parts alone than i did doing a full install with insteon. 

I do hope ISY integration comes (hint hint ?) as I do like to look for ways to save customers money. The Isy is a reliable system so it would allow those who may want more than ra gives (but not willing to pay) to have a better experience at a lower cost.

[DAlter01]

9 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

Finally there is the "Prosumer" group. These are folks who like to do fairly elaborate things with Home Automation but not down to the technical level of "Hardcore Hobbyists"  nor at the limited simplistic level of "Casual Hobbyists". They want hardware that works out of the box but also want a logic engine that can handle complex nested "if-then" and "or" commands. They want this extended logic in a GUI interface without having to resort to manual scripting so their time is focused on the logic rather than syntax and debugging. They want to integrate with a wide variety of things beyond wireless protocols and expect dry contact inputs and relay outputs and serial connectivity as well. They are generally comfortable with MQTT and Node Red but not neccessarily Python or Json. This group often starts with Smartthings or Hubitat and then migrates to Homseer or Polisy. 

While not describing my needs/evolution to being a Prosumer perfectly, you have summarized where I fit well.  

[Michel Kohanim]

@simplextech,

Thank you for the education. But, have you had any issues with Polisy OS packages? Even going from 11 to 12 to 13 versions of the OS were transparent to developers. So, again, apart from generalities, what exact issues have you had with Polisy packages and even the OS so that we can fix.

With kind regards,

Michel

 

 

 

[asbril]

37 minutes ago, DAlter01 said:

While not describing my needs/evolution to being a Prosumer perfectly, you have summarized where I fit well.  

I thought that he was describing me in Prosumer until "    MQTT and Node Red     ". That is where I went back to being a simple and humble  hobbyist   

[DAlter01]

3 minutes ago, asbril said:

I thought that he was describing me in Prosumer until "    MQTT and Node Red     ". That is where I went back to being a simple and humble  hobbyist   

I'll admit, I had to look those up.  So, I guess I was over-reaching.

[upstatemike]

4 minutes ago, asbril said:

I thought that he was describing me in Prosumer until "    MQTT and Node Red     ". That is where I went back to being a simple and humble  hobbyist   

I was on the fence about including those but I think they are becoming more common with this group while still maintaining a clear line between those skills versus scripting/programming expertise in the hardcore group. 

[simplextech]

35 minutes ago, Michel Kohanim said:

So, again, apart from generalities, what exact issues have you had with Polisy packages and even the OS so that we can fix.

Stop being stuck on the core OS packages.  The development packages Python, Node.js are included in the current "OS" updates.  I have been stung by those updates being included in the OS.  

[asbril]

1 minute ago, upstatemike said:

I was on the fence about including those but I think they are becoming more common with this group while still maintaining a clear line between those skills versus scripting/programming expertise in the hardcore group. 

I have no idea about MQTT and Node Red  so I guess that I have to go back to home automation school if I ever want to be a Prosumer.

[simplextech]

1 hour ago, upstatemike said:

The controllers from Lutron, RTI, C4, etc, likewise are reliable but pretty basic in adding security cameras, touch screens, thermostats, and rudimentary music control into the mix but not really doing anything very exciting, whether due to platform limitations or simply by design to keep things simple and avoid service headaches. These systems tend to seem both expensive and incredibly boring to the other groups.

I don't think you know much about RTI or Control4 and their capabilities.  It reads as though you think they are some low end minimal automation like Alexa or Google.  The things that can be done with RTI and Control4 really blow past anything done in the DIY arena today.  These systems are dealer installed systems and for small systems are actually affordable or they can expand to be huge and very expensive.

[Michel Kohanim]

5 minutes ago, simplextech said:

Stop being stuck on the core OS packages.  The development packages Python, Node.js are included in the current "OS" updates.  I have been stung by those updates being included in the OS.  

O lord ... thank you very much for being so explicit. Now I know exactly when you were stung and by what. Not.

With kind regards,
Michel

[upstatemike]

23 minutes ago, simplextech said:

I don't think you know much about RTI or Control4 and their capabilities.  It reads as though you think they are some low end minimal automation like Alexa or Google.  The things that can be done with RTI and Control4 really blow past anything done in the DIY arena today.  These systems are dealer installed systems and for small systems are actually affordable or they can expand to be huge and very expensive.

Less about the capabilities and more about how they are implemented. Because they are dealer installed they are not really available/affordable to Prosumers who might actually want some of the complex capability while dealers tend to avoid anything too wild to avoid the potential service issues. I am not saying these products don't have capabilities but that they are rarely implemented to do anything very interesting.