Is RadioRA3 the Ultimate Replacement For Insteon?

[upstatemike]

I'm having trouble following this conversation. As I understand it RA3 uses LEAP. Any RA3 installation will be new so no need to be campatible with older Telnet installations of RA2. Some RA2 components can be used in RA3 installs as well but that has nothing to do with Leap vs Telnet.

RA2/RA Select/ Caseta all can or must use Telnet. That will not change for existing installs or new installs using these lines for long as they are still available to use for new installs.

Caseta will likely become a LEAP based Caseta2 at some point but new and existing switches will likely work in either version to preserve the ability to expand existing installations.

There may or may not ever be a LEAP version of RA Select depending if Lutron feels that line performed well enough to continue. Either way the current version of RA Select is likely going to be terminated at some point.

Am I understanding things correctly? If so I don't see what points are left to debate?

 

[lilyoyo1]

9 hours ago, upstatemike said:

I'm having trouble following this conversation. As I understand it RA3 uses LEAP. Any RA3 installation will be new so no need to be campatible with older Telnet installations of RA2. Some RA2 components can be used in RA3 installs as well but that has nothing to do with Leap vs Telnet.

RA2/RA Select/ Caseta all can or must use Telnet. That will not change for existing installs or new installs using these lines for long as they are still available to use for new installs.

Caseta will likely become a LEAP based Caseta2 at some point but new and existing switches will likely work in either version to preserve the ability to expand existing installations.

There may or may not ever be a LEAP version of RA Select depending if Lutron feels that line performed well enough to continue. Either way the current version of RA Select is likely going to be terminated at some point.

Am I understanding things correctly? If so I don't see what points are left to debate?

 

You're understanding is correct. It never should've been a debate- especially since the topic was never about Caseta, Ra2, or select

 

[upstatemike]

So I will try to answer my own question from the top and suggest that while RA3 looks to be a big improvement in styling, security, and user access, the cost and trade barriers are still geared to support Integrators and these prevent it from being a good replacement for Insteon. My analysis of Insteon replacement options for Prosumers at this stage are:

1 Rule out most Integrator products such as C4, RadioRA, Homeworks, etc. as not practical for Prosumers because of the high cost and distribution constraints.

2 Rule out any vaporware that you cannot currently buy and for which there is no track record. These would include things like Z-Wave Long Range, Matter, and Nokia.

3 Rule out things that do not have a local API such as LoRa and most Wi-Fi offerings. (Lifx being an exception). Using Tasmota and other super techie ways to get around this are also ruled out as not being practical for most Prosumers and clearly not targeted for the same audience as Insteon.

4 Rule out anything that does not allow direct association between devices so they can work when the hub/gateway is offline. Zigbee is the most common example here.

This leaves:

Caseta - No way to control one device from another, must have a Pico to stitch the group together. Also kind of limited on device offerings.

Z-Wave - Can mimic some qualities of Insteon but is a ridiculously complex protocol for what it does, with a configuation that can get corrupted and a reputation for being hard to back up and restore reliably.

X-10 - Still has the same problems it has always had but these might be more manageable than the shortcomings in some of the newer platforms. Also still releasing new products and has a wider variety of devices than other platforms.

Used Legacy Insteon - We should be able to find used stuff on ebay for quite awhile to hold us until a truly viable alternative finally reaches maturity. 

[MrBill]

9 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

This leaves:

Make friends with an electrical contractor in your area. Volunteer to pay your course fee to take the Lutron course using his/her company name, make an agreement that he allow you to place orders at his Lutron Distributor and pay COD at pickup (most supply houses will accept COD payments on orders like that), agree that you will only place personal orders and will refer anyone else that wants product to his company.  Agree that you will provide consulting at a discounted rate should he need your expertise in the future.

[simplextech]

10 minutes ago, MrBill said:

Make friends with an electrical contractor in your area. Volunteer to pay your course fee to take the Lutron course using his/her company name, make an agreement that he allow you to place orders at his Lutron Distributor and pay COD at pickup (most supply houses will accept COD payments on orders like that), agree that you will only place personal orders and will refer anyone else that wants product to his company.  Agree that you will provide consulting at a discounted rate should he need your expertise in the future.

What?

The Lutron Radio Ra 2/3 Level 1 course is FREE.  ANYONE can sign up for it and take it.  If you pass the test you get access to the designer software.  

With the introduction of RA2 Select anyone can purchase the switches/dimmers/devices from most decent lighting supply shops.  Anyone can go online, walk into a City Electric or Lighting Pro or Hank's Electric (my favorite) and order Lutron Radio Ra / RA2 Select devices.

Now if you want HomeWorks that's a completely different ball game!

Besides if anyone wanted any Lutron stuff there's several certified dealers on this forum!

[MrBill]

16 minutes ago, simplextech said:

The Lutron Radio Ra 2/3 Level 1 course is FREE

I said that last time and @lilyoyo1 corrected me....  I'm no Lutron expert, so maybe I'm confused on the finer points.

[simplextech]

10 minutes ago, MrBill said:

I said that last time and @lilyoyo1 corrected me....  I'm no Lutron expert, so maybe I'm confused on the finer points.

As a Lutron Certified Level 2 programmer, installer, dealer I'm trumping @lilyoyo1 on this one

Lutron Level 1 certification is Free.

Lutron Level 2 certification is $$$ and requires L1 as pre-requisite.

90% of the typical Lutron Radio Ra 2 installations out there only require Level 1.

[lilyoyo1]

53 minutes ago, simplextech said:

As a Lutron Certified Level 2 programmer, installer, dealer I'm trumping @lilyoyo1 on this one

Lutron Level 1 certification is Free.

Lutron Level 2 certification is $$$ and requires L1 as pre-requisite.

90% of the typical Lutron Radio Ra 2 installations out there only require Level 1.

Actually I'm level 2 as well. I just preferred C4 over lutron so I didn't install it until now.... ? I have to admit...you do know a lot mire about lutron than I do however

[simplextech]

1 minute ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Actually I'm level 2 as well.

And proving my point that there are several Lutron certified dealers on this forum!

[DAlter01]

1 hour ago, MrBill said:

Make friends with an electrical contractor in your area. Volunteer to pay your course fee to take the Lutron course using his/her company name, make an agreement that he allow you to place orders at his Lutron Distributor and pay COD at pickup (most supply houses will accept COD payments on orders like that), agree that you will only place personal orders and will refer anyone else that wants product to his company.  Agree that you will provide consulting at a discounted rate should he need your expertise in the future.

Are you volunteering??

[simplextech]

5 hours ago, DAlter01 said:

Are you volunteering??

Now I'm just plain confused.  What does anyone need to volunteer for?

[DAlter01]

 

8 hours ago, simplextech said:

Now I'm just plain confused.  What does anyone need to volunteer for?

@mrbill was talking about making a friend with a Lutron licensed electrical contractor to get access to some of the "limited" availabilty Lutron stuff at a price less than full retail.  This is what i was asking if he was volunterring for.

When I did my house early this year, for what I wanted to do and the size of my system, my choices seemed to be Homeworks, C4, or Insteon/ISY.  I really wanted to have a Lutron system because of its sterling reputation in upper end homes and the fact it "just works".  C4 seemed to be off limits since someone has to be a "real" C4 installer to purchase and program C4.  But, the Lutron contractors I found in my area (Scottsdale AZ) were very protective of their turf.  They were not going to sell hardware for a system they were not going to program and maintain.  Could it have been made to work with Ra2, maybe, but if I recall correctly they were telling me I needed Homeworks due to my system size and to get the type of programming I wanted.  Truth in that?  I can't answer as I don't know enough about it.  As I read more about Ra2, maybe it would have been sufficient.  Then, there is the full retail price for Homeworks, well, that was a hard pill to swallow.

In the end, I did another Insteon/ISY system and am very happy with its function and reliability.  The downside is that Insteon is being retired sooner than I anticipated.  While not gone yet, some of the unique helpful devices are already discontinued and the end of Insteon as a viable choice for a new install is not as favorable is it was at my decision point in January 2021.

Fast forward to today, from my brief reading of the Ra3 literature, it seems to be a nice evolution and might be the way to go for me if I were deciding today.  If the Ra3 system is the solution for a hypothetical new install, I would be looking for a licensed contractor willing to let me buy Homeworks or Ra3 at something less than full retail price.  Thus, the question on a volunteer.  Still confused?

[lilyoyo1]

1 hour ago, DAlter01 said:

 

@mrbill was talking about making a friend with a Lutron licensed electrical contractor to get access to some of the "limited" availabilty Lutron stuff at a price less than full retail.  This is what i was asking if he was volunterring for.

When I did my house early this year, for what I wanted to do and the size of my system, my choices seemed to be Homeworks, C4, or Insteon/ISY.  I really wanted to have a Lutron system because of its sterling reputation in upper end homes and the fact it "just works".  C4 seemed to be off limits since someone has to be a "real" C4 installer to purchase and program C4.  But, the Lutron contractors I found in my area (Scottsdale AZ) were very protective of their turf.  They were not going to sell hardware for a system they were not going to program and maintain.  Could it have been made to work with Ra2, maybe, but if I recall correctly they were telling me I needed Homeworks due to my system size and to get the type of programming I wanted.  Truth in that?  I can't answer as I don't know enough about it.  As I read more about Ra2, maybe it would have been sufficient.  Then, there is the full retail price for Homeworks, well, that was a hard pill to swallow.

In the end, I did another Insteon/ISY system and am very happy with its function and reliability.  The downside is that Insteon is being retired sooner than I anticipated.  While not gone yet, some of the unique helpful devices are already discontinued and the end of Insteon as a viable choice for a new install is not as favorable is it was at my decision point in January 2021.

Fast forward to today, from my brief reading of the Ra3 literature, it seems to be a nice evolution and might be the way to go for me if I were deciding today.  If the Ra3 system is the solution for a hypothetical new install, I would be looking for a licensed contractor willing to let me buy Homeworks or Ra3 at something less than full retail price.  Thus, the question on a volunteer.  Still confused?

Its not simply them protecting their turf but the potential headaches it could cause. For the following reasons and more, there are no tangible benefits to them but a host of cons by helping you

For one- why would they sell you a switch for x amount of dollars if they can turn around and sell it to someone else for 2x as much? 

Second reason would be warranty. If a switch or 2 goes bad, who are you turning to for replacement? Most likely them. So now they are handling warranty for something that they didn't install and made less money on. 

The third reason is support. This ties in with the 2nd reason. What happens if you run into problems? Who are you calling. Most likely them. Now they are supporting you with something they didn't install and made less profit on than normal. 

4th is people talk. If a dealer was known to sell stuff cheaper to non clients over their clients, How would that make clients and potential clients feel? What would happen to their business long term? 

While you may say you wouldn't have those expectations or do those things, they do not know you. Is it really worth taking that chance over a stranger? 

[DAlter01]

2 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Its not simply them protecting their turf but the potential headaches it could cause. For the following reasons and more, there are no tangible benefits to them but a host of cons by helping you

For one- why would they sell you a switch for x amount of dollars if they can turn around and sell it to someone else for 2x as much? 

Second reason would be warranty. If a switch or 2 goes bad, who are you turning to for replacement? Most likely them. So now they are handling warranty for something that they didn't install and made less money on. 

The third reason is support. This ties in with the 2nd reason. What happens if you run into problems? Who are you calling. Most likely them. Now they are supporting you with something they didn't install and made less profit on than normal. 

4th is people talk. If a dealer was known to sell stuff cheaper to non clients over their clients, How would that make clients and potential clients feel? What would happen to their business long term? 

While you may say you wouldn't have those expectations or do those things, they do not know you. Is it really worth taking that chance over a stranger? 

Oh, I don't fault them one bit.  I would do the exact same thing.  Lutron, C4 and the integrators all have businesses to run profitably and for the reasons you state they need to protect their avenue for earning that profit.  I'm all for that.  My objective, as I'm sure you can appreciate, was to get a very high quality system that I could program and tinker with.  Price wasn't the primary driver, but was considered to a degree.  For the most part as quality and features go up, the ability for an end user to tinker with it by the "customer" goes down.  That is understandable but takes away part of my objective. 

I'm very satsified with the Insteon/ISY I ended up with but would have loved to put in a nice Homeworks system that was more appropriate to my home.  But, I wouldn't have been able to do everything I wanted to do relying on my local integrators.  While both the Lutron and C4 systems are more than capable, the integrators I've encountered in my local market wanted to keep the system pretty basic in its programming.  I'm sure that is to cut down on non-billable service calls when the complex programming requests I had didn't work out as intended.  Again, I don't fault them, it is just a constraint I needed to find a solution for.      

The Ra3 system appears to retain the legendary Lutron quality but also takes a step to provding more capability and openess to allow a prosumer like me to be able to purchase and program it for a large complex install.  I don't know enough about Ra3 yet, but that is my perception.  I'm contemplating building a new custom home and have been thinking about the automation options and think Ra3 is in contention should I move forward.  I would not put Insteon in my next house as it is going down a path of obsolescence and Nokia is not geared towards the Prosumer, at least not yet.  

[simplextech]

30 minutes ago, DAlter01 said:

but would have loved to put in a nice Homeworks system that was more appropriate to my home.

I don't know the size and details of your home or your setup.  In many cases HomeWorks is the "correct" fit for a home.  Just like how you could use Caseta with multiple bridges to cover a large house but it's not the "correct" product to use.  However HomeWorks is the top-shelf of Lutron Residential products and is "the" protected system by Lutron and dealers alike.

There is no free training for HomeWorks.  The training/certification cost for HomeWorks is approx $6,000 per person.  HomeWorks installers must go through an approval process to be accepted to the training.  The system is not open to DIY in any way.

Using a control system with proper drivers it's possible to use multiple bridges or main repeaters of any of the Lutron systems to design out a large system.  From a Lutron perspective this is not the correct way but it is a work around for the device limits imposed on each system.  There are downsides to this as there are now multiple separate environments to manage/maintain.

[MrBill]

16 hours ago, DAlter01 said:

Are you volunteering??

No.  Nor does that apply to what I said.

Years ago, when when I was service manager at an Electrical Contractor we had about 3 of these types of deals.  One was with a small Alarm Company that had no way to purchase Leviton DHC at a discount (DHC was basically X-10 that's built better and looks better). Another was a small one man shop Electrician that liked Lutron dimmers but couldn't get them for competitive pricing. (at the time Lutron was just beginning to appear at Home Depot, and Lutron dealer price sheets were all volume based, the one man shop's volume was so low he was literally paying more than the HD price for some items.)  The third and final was another Alarm guy that simply wanted original Radio Ra for his own house (he didn't intend to sell it), I don't recall the exact Lutron rules at the time, but it was a new product line and Lutron definitely wanted dealers to go to training to buy/sell/use it (online training didn't exist yet).  So he went to regional training in another city, all on his own dime, as a representative of our company, that meant we got access to the product.  In the end, a year later we ended up paying him because we had a high end customer that needed RadioRa and he was the only smart one that had training (we had sent the owners son to RadioRa training too.. but tbh that was a waste ?).

As far as volunteering to buy and sell to this group.  I don't think anyone should do that.  Besides the additional freight that will be incurred re-shipping wouldn't make it worth it, and no one can afford to order and resell products without making a profit.  So let's re-examine what I said:

  

18 hours ago, MrBill said:

Make friends with an electrical contractor in your area. Volunteer to pay your course fee to take the Lutron course using his/her company name, make an agreement that he allow you to place orders at his Lutron Distributor and pay COD at pickup (most supply houses will accept COD payments on orders like that), agree that you will only place personal orders and will refer anyone else that wants product to his company.  Agree that you will provide consulting at a discounted rate should he need your expertise in the future.

I left out unintentionally the words that this is specifically a deal that a DIY hobbyist makes with a local contractor to obtain product for his own house-- not a business venture of buying a re-selling Lutron product. 

The last sentence covers the fact that many electrical contractors don't have anyone that's been trained on RadioRa, if your contractor happens to fall into that category making such a deal gives them the ability to get the product sold and installed (however today training is easier to obtain, since it's online-- back in the day one likely had to travel, stay in a hotel and go to training in the meeting room at the hotel.)

[DAlter01]

2 minutes ago, simplextech said:

I don't know the size and details of your home or your setup.  In many cases HomeWorks is the "correct" fit for a home.  Just like how you could use Caseta with multiple bridges to cover a large house but it's not the "correct" product to use.  However HomeWorks is the top-shelf of Lutron Residential products and is "the" protected system by Lutron and dealers alike.

There is no free training for HomeWorks.  The training/certification cost for HomeWorks is approx $6,000 per person.  HomeWorks installers must go through an approval process to be accepted to the training.  The system is not open to DIY in any way.

Using a control system with proper drivers it's possible to use multiple bridges or main repeaters of any of the Lutron systems to design out a large system.  From a Lutron perspective this is not the correct way but it is a work around for the device limits imposed on each system.  There are downsides to this as there are now multiple separate environments to manage/maintain.

One of the integrators talked about having two Ra2 systems running simultaneously as an option but it seemed like there were some signficant compromises to make going that route.  That solution was kicked around as it would have given me some ability to get under the hood of the system once I took the Lutron classes.  But, it certainly wasn't the preferred solution and I believe there were some things I wanted to do that he said couldn't be done with Ra2 or maybe it was because we would be using two Ra2 systems and it would be cumbersome to implement and maintain.

The Insteon/ISY I selected is also far from perfect.  All the systems required compromises and it became a choice between those compromises.  Ra3 will no doubt involve compromises but it is good to see its release as I think it will be a good option for many similar prosumers.  

I wasn't willing to invest the time, effort, and money to take the Homeworks class considering I knew I could accomplish my needs with the Insteon/ISY setup.   With Homeworks being so customizable, I figured it would be daunting to learn enough.  And, since it isn't my occupation, any knowledge I gained would be quickly forgotten and I'd be in a tough spot for ongoing service.  

Maybe, hopefully, Ra3 will be capable and expandable enough to handle more than Ra2 and get a little closer to Homeworks, that appears to be the case.

[DAlter01]

17 minutes ago, MrBill said:

No.  Nor does that apply to what I said.

Years ago, when when I was service manager at an Electrical Contractor we had about 3 of these types of deals.  One was with a small Alarm Company that had no way to purchase Leviton DHC at a discount (DHC was basically X-10 that's built better and looks better). Another was a small one man shop Electrician that liked Lutron dimmers but couldn't get them for competitive pricing. (at the time Lutron was just beginning to appear at Home Depot, and Lutron dealer price sheets were all volume based, the one man shop's volume was so low he was literally paying more than the HD price for some items.)  The third and final was another Alarm guy that simply wanted original Radio Ra for his own house (he didn't intend to sell it), I don't recall the exact Lutron rules at the time, but it was a new product line and Lutron definitely wanted dealers to go to training to buy/sell/use it (online training didn't exist yet).  So he went to regional training in another city, all on his own dime, as a representative of our company, that meant we got access to the product.  In the end, a year later we ended up paying him because we had a high end customer that needed RadioRa and he was the only smart one that had training (we had sent the owners son to RadioRa training too.. but tbh that was a waste ?).

As far as volunteering to buy and sell to this group.  I don't think anyone should do that.  Besides the additional freight that will be incurred re-shipping wouldn't make it worth it, and no one can afford to order and resell products without making a profit.  So let's re-examine what I said:

  

I left out unintentionally the words that this is specifically a deal that a DIY hobbyist makes with a local contractor to obtain product for his own house-- not a business venture of buying a re-selling Lutron product. 

The last sentence covers the fact that many electrical contractors don't have anyone that's been trained on RadioRa, if your contractor happens to fall into that category making such a deal gives them the ability to get the product sold and installed (however today training is easier to obtain, since it's online-- back in the day one likely had to travel, stay in a hotel and go to training in the meeting room at the hotel.)

@MrBill,

Sometimes on these forums it is hard to relay a little soft humor.  I never expected you, or anyone, to volunteer for that role and I wasn't really asking for that.  And I agree it makes no sense.  I was, however, poking a little fun at the idea of finding that 1 in 1,000 chance of  an electrical contractor that would do what you suggested and let someone buy under their name, at their price (or a bit more) and pay at the supply house COD.  I'm sure those situations exist (you described 3) and in fact I have that at a local plumbing supply house from a plumber friend of mine, but I've got to believe those situations are really unique.  

I understand and agree with all your points.  

 

[MrBill]

11 minutes ago, DAlter01 said:

but I've got to believe those situations are really unique.  

They really aren't that unique.  I can still buy under various companies names at various supply houses across a few trades.

The thing supply houses want to do is stop John Q Public from walking in the front door and taking there time.  They can't afford to have a counter rep educate one time customers and help the one time customer select the correct dimmer for the application. As a result Supply Houses cash prices for walk-in customers are on the high side.  On the other hand, I walk in the door, I know half the people there anyway from my previous background in the industry, I tell the counter guy what I want and add Put it on an <insert company name> cash ticket, they write it up, pull the product, I pay and I'm out the door.    The companies that I have the informal arrangements with also get the dollars counted in their sales volume, those cash tickets collectively from various sources do add up.

For example, on jobs I'd frequently have another trade person say something like "hey can you get me a good deal on <blank> for my own house"  If i liked the guy I'd say "sure, go to XYZ and ask for Ryan, tell him what you need and tell him Bill said it was OK to put it on an ABC cash ticket"  I never even called those types of one off arrangements in... Ryan that if the same guy kept coming back for more to call me.  For all I know Ryan@supply house probably used Cash tickets on our account for his friends and relatives too (we had very good Leviton, Lutron, and wire pricing/discounts).

[DAlter01]

9 minutes ago, MrBill said:

They really aren't that unique.  I can still buy under various companies names at various supply houses across a few trades.

The thing supply houses want to do is stop John Q Public from walking in the front door and taking there time.  They can't afford to have a counter rep educate one time customers and help the one time customer select the correct dimmer for the application. As a result Supply Houses cash prices for walk-in customers are on the high side.  On the other hand, I walk in the door, I know half the people there anyway from my previous background in the industry, I tell the counter guy what I want and add Put it on an <insert company name> cash ticket, they write it up, pull the product, I pay and I'm out the door.    The companies that I have the informal arrangements with also get the dollars counted in their sales volume, those cash tickets collectively from various sources do add up.

For example, on jobs I'd frequently have another trade person say something like "hey can you get me a good deal on <blank> for my own house"  If i liked the guy I'd say "sure, go to XYZ and ask for Ryan, tell him what you need and tell him Bill said it was OK to put it on an ABC cash ticket"  I never even called those types of one off arrangements in... Ryan that if the same guy kept coming back for more to call me.  For all I know Ryan@supply house probably used Cash tickets on our account for his friends and relatives too (we had very good Leviton, Lutron, and wire pricing/discounts).

Well, good to know, thank you.  I often buy at supply houses on cash tickets and sometimes get good pricing, sometimes not.  I've had the feeling that I didn't want to use one of the tradesman's accounts I know to not take advantage/abuse the relationship.  I never thought about the flip side which is it might actually help the guy out by inching his purchase volume up.  I'll start asking, I think you just helped create some win/win purchases.

[lilyoyo1]

23 hours ago, DAlter01 said:

Well, good to know, thank you.  I often buy at supply houses on cash tickets and sometimes get good pricing, sometimes not.  I've had the feeling that I didn't want to use one of the tradesman's accounts I know to not take advantage/abuse the relationship.  I never thought about the flip side which is it might actually help the guy out by inching his purchase volume up.  I'll start asking, I think you just helped create some win/win purchases.

The hard part now is that most distributors have very low minimals and extremely high numbers for their elite people. There really isnt much middle ground anymore (at least from my experience). Take me for example, I havent been doing lutron even though I can. However, I can still buy lutron stuff from Volutone, ADI, and SnapAv without issue. Even though I may not spend 6 figures on lutron I still buy alot of other things from each one which allows me to continue using them without issue.

With that said, find a small independent contractor who may or may not have dealer accounts with certain distributors. Work with him/her to get dealer accounts set up and then they could purchase all they (or you) need without hassle.

[gregkinney]

On 11/8/2021 at 3:13 PM, silverton38 said:

I have a simple pricing model. $100 a switch plus $950 for hub(s) and setup and programming. I only do whole home integrations; partials have never worked well for me. Simple; customers know what the cost will be without much trouble. I also charge a $300 a year maintenance program which includes hub management fees that I have to pay plus a few hours year in programming ($250 and hour after that). The last thing I do is create an email address for the home. I actually do not give my customers an option to opt out of the email or the whole home.

 

So I have to make a profit somehow.

 

Just simply out of curiosity, what do you consider "whole home" integration? Every light switch in the house, or all rooms except bathrooms and closets? Main shared spaces only? 

[upstatemike]

2 hours ago, gregkinney said:

Just simply out of curiosity, what do you consider "whole home" integration? Every light switch in the house, or all rooms except bathrooms and closets? Main shared spaces only? 

It's not "whole Home" if you aren't monitoring toilet flushes and room specific differences in air pressure.

[lilyoyo1]

1 hour ago, gregkinney said:

Just simply out of curiosity, what do you consider "whole home" integration? Every light switch in the house, or all rooms except bathrooms and closets? Main shared spaces only? 

Hallways, closets, and bathrooms are some of the first places i like to automate. 

[asbril]

2 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Hallways, closets, and bathrooms are some of the first places i like to automate.

100 % of my switches, lights, fans, speakers are part of my ISY set-up. Not all my curtains (yet).

BTW this discussion is interesting but clearly RA3 is beyond the grasp of low-techies like me. So I'm staying with Zwave