larryllix Posted December 27, 2021 Posted December 27, 2021 With so many ZigBee devices out there for so cheap, and so many reports of such a robust protocol from industry and other brands over the last decade I thought it would be good to see what people know about this technology. I see many, many ZigBee devices that...of course, all claim Alexa of GH compatible. But alas these ZigBee devices are not WiFi protocol or BT and must require a hub of some type so, I would like to hear about: ZigBee hubs and compatibility between devices and compatibility with various hubs. Protocols to control a ZigBee hub, or directly to a ZigBee device from ISY. (I don;t thnk that is possble but only have expereience with ISY NRs to a Hue hub) Potential methods to control ZigBee devices from polisy/ISY. Hardware and software required. Potential NSs being developed by anybody? Any other ZigBee related reports or comments? This is the thread, here.
simplextech Posted December 28, 2021 Posted December 28, 2021 34 minutes ago, larryllix said: With so many ZigBee devices out there for so cheap, and so many reports of such a robust protocol from industry and other brands over the last decade I thought it would be good to see what people know about this technology. I see many, many ZigBee devices that...of course, all claim Alexa of GH compatible. But alas these ZigBee devices are not WiFi protocol or BT and must require a hub of some type so, I would like to hear about: ZigBee hubs and compatibility between devices and compatibility with various hubs. Protocols to control a ZigBee hub, or directly to a ZigBee device from ISY. (I don;t thnk that is possble but only have expereience with ISY NRs to a Hue hub) Potential methods to control ZigBee devices from polisy/ISY. Hardware and software required. Potential NSs being developed by anybody? Any other ZigBee related reports or comments? This is the thread, here. One of the better hubs out there that supports Zigbee is Hubitat Elevation. The next best would be using DeConz with their ConBee USB stick. I like DeConz but it doesn't support nearly as many devices. The thing about Zigbee is until the ZHA 3.0 standard there wasn't any "real" standard. There was ZHA 1.2 but not everyone followed it. The world of Zigbee devices is still very much wild-wild west as any vendor can claim Zigbee and not required to follow any of the standards. There is a ZigBee alliance and they're working to clean up this mess and it does require a large fee to get the ZigBee stamp of approval but there are so many products out there already that it's still a mess. In fact any vendor can create their own ZigBee Command List (ZCL) and make it proprietary to their implementation. Control4 is all Zigbee but is not compatible with anything except their ZB Coordinators which use Zigbee Pro and their custom ZCL. Same for RTI remotes. They Zigbee but they are ZB Pro and custom ZCL. Hue bulbs and also Zigbee but they use the Zigbee Light Link (ZLL) for communication and not the home automation ZHA. Long ago I developed the Hubitat NodeServer as it was a very clean way of providing access to Zigbee devices via the ISY. For the last couple years I didn't think anyone was actually using it and it only got very minor updates. Recently I learned someone was still using it so I've added another Zigbee device type to support that use. 1 1
larryllix Posted December 28, 2021 Author Posted December 28, 2021 29 minutes ago, simplextech said: One of the better hubs out there that supports Zigbee is Hubitat Elevation. The next best would be using DeConz with their ConBee USB stick. I like DeConz but it doesn't support nearly as many devices. The thing about Zigbee is until the ZHA 3.0 standard there wasn't any "real" standard. There was ZHA 1.2 but not everyone followed it. The world of Zigbee devices is still very much wild-wild west as any vendor can claim Zigbee and not required to follow any of the standards. There is a ZigBee alliance and they're working to clean up this mess and it does require a large fee to get the ZigBee stamp of approval but there are so many products out there already that it's still a mess. In fact any vendor can create their own ZigBee Command List (ZCL) and make it proprietary to their implementation. Control4 is all Zigbee but is not compatible with anything except their ZB Coordinators which use Zigbee Pro and their custom ZCL. Same for RTI remotes. They Zigbee but they are ZB Pro and custom ZCL. Hue bulbs and also Zigbee but they use the Zigbee Light Link (ZLL) for communication and not the home automation ZHA. Long ago I developed the Hubitat NodeServer as it was a very clean way of providing access to Zigbee devices via the ISY. For the last couple years I didn't think anyone was actually using it and it only got very minor updates. Recently I learned someone was still using it so I've added another Zigbee device type to support that use. It would seem to me that if ZigBee was so low level on the protocol stack, wouldn't software driver changes be the only thing required to be able to address/control almost any ZigBee device? Of course a less hardware to software trade-off, usually means a more attentive CPU time dedication.
simplextech Posted December 28, 2021 Posted December 28, 2021 Just now, larryllix said: It would seem to me that if ZigBee was so low level on the protocol stack, wouldn't software driver changes be the only thing required to be able to address/control almost any ZigBee device? Of course a less hardware to software trade-off, usually means a more attentive CPU time dedication. It's very much like Z-Wave in the sense that if the software stack follows the standards of the commands list then most devices should work. The problem with Zigbee is they can label it Zigbee and not follow the ZHA ZCL which is what most control systems code towards.
larryllix Posted December 28, 2021 Author Posted December 28, 2021 22 minutes ago, simplextech said: It's very much like Z-Wave in the sense that if the software stack follows the standards of the commands list then most devices should work. The problem with Zigbee is they can label it Zigbee and not follow the ZHA ZCL which is what most control systems code towards. This unit sounds like the ideal partner for ISY moving away / co-partnerring with Insteon products. It seems to handle everything users talk about here. Here is an exerpt from the amazon.ca sales page. Quote Product description Hubitat Elevation is a robust platform that automates your smart devices and elevates your home. Edge computing for home automation provides reliability, quick responses and data privacy. All automation processing is done in your Hubitat Elevation hub, so your personal device data is stored locally – not in the cloud. Hubitat Elevation empowers the DIYer to automate (and elevate) his or her home. The connected devices work reliably, instantly and without putting personal data at risk. - Choose from a wide range of compatible devices, including lights, speakers, smoke/water detectors, locks, thermostats, sensors, and more. - Built-in support for more than 100 unique smart devices, and more being added with each update release. - Compatible brands include Aeon, Cree, Dome, Fibaro, First Alert, Innovelli, Iris, Jasco/GE, Kwikset, Levitron, Lutron, Nyce, Philips, Samsung SmartThings, Sonos, Sylvania, Zen, Zooz and many others. - Support of the Z-Wave and Zigbee protocols allow the hub to "talk to” and automate the functions and features of compatible devices. - Integrates nicely with Lutron RadioRA2, RA2 Select, GrafikEye QS and Caséta (with SmartBridge PRO) lighting systems, including the Pico remote. - Supports numerous popular platform integrations including Philips Hue Bridge, Amazon Echo, Google Home, and IFTTT. - Comes with more than a dozen built-in applications to create and manage automations, including Rule Machine®, Hubitat Safety Monitor, Simple Lighting, Mode Manager and Hubitat Dashboard. - Migrate existing home automation systems from older cloud-based systems, including Samsung SmartThings, Iris including V1 devices, Wink, Vera... - Hub connects to local area network via the included Ethernet cable, with built-in Zigbee and Z-Wave radios. - Email support available, active community with online support from our team. - USA version.
upstatemike Posted December 28, 2021 Posted December 28, 2021 What makes Hubitat better than Conbee for a Zigbee interface? How would you handle Hue? Direct connection to the Hue NodeServer? Hue to Hubitat to Hubitat NodeServer? How would you handle Alexa controlling Hue? Directly through the Alexa Hue Skill? Via Hubitat utilizing the Alexa Hubitat Skill? Via Alexa/ISY integration using the Hue NodeServer? Via Alexa/ISY integration using the Hubitat Nodeserver with Hue integrated to Hubitat?
simplextech Posted December 28, 2021 Posted December 28, 2021 11 minutes ago, upstatemike said: What makes Hubitat better than Conbee for a Zigbee interface? How would you handle Hue? Direct connection to the Hue NodeServer? Hue to Hubitat to Hubitat NodeServer? How would you handle Alexa controlling Hue? Directly through the Alexa Hue Skill? Via Hubitat utilizing the Alexa Hubitat Skill? Via Alexa/ISY integration using the Hue NodeServer? Via Alexa/ISY integration using the Hubitat Nodeserver with Hue integrated to Hubitat? Hubitat is better than a ConBee USB stick because Hubitat is a full package. A "gateway" in Z-Wave terms or a processor.... or "hub". Hubitat includes the full software stack to actually do something with the ZigBee controller. A ConBee by itself is useless without software (like DeCONZ) which takes a bit more to install, setup and then tinker and figure out what devices work. The more appropriate question would have been "why is Hubitat better than Home Assistant WITH a Conbee USB stick?" (or XYZ Zigbee controller). Hubitat would still be a better choice for most people because it's easier to setup and use and Hubitat has a very good support community that rivals the ISY community for promptness of device updates and fixes. Here's a brain twist. Why not install Home Assistant on Polisy? Hmm.... How would you connect to Hue? This all depends. If you're using Hubitat as a ZigBee gateway then you connect to Hue the same as you do today with Polyglot NodeServer. The only use of Hubitat in the original scenario was to bring ZigBee devices INTO the ISY. If however you only have Z-Wave devices then you're in a pickle to decide whether to use the ISY/Polyglot to interface with those things or use the Hubitat hub to do those things. The ISY already supports Z-Wave and of course Insteon. Bridging into the ISY via Polyglot Zigbee was the intention of the Hubitat NodeServer. I've also given thought to a DeCONZ nodeserver but haven't put any effort into it. 1
Michel Kohanim Posted December 28, 2021 Posted December 28, 2021 12 hours ago, simplextech said: Why not install Home Assistant on Polisy? Hmm.... Not knowing much about HA, their business model, and their device/licensing requirements, I cannot make an informed comment. For instance, on Polisy, all USB/Serial port/network interfaces are owned by root and only accessed through udx. So, installing HA on Polisy without integration with udx and setting up permissions is not going to work. Also, someone will need to maintain the code and figure out licensing. This said, having HA UI + what they support as node servers is a no brainer. If there's a lot of interest, we'll definitely look into it. With kind regards, Michel
asbril Posted December 28, 2021 Posted December 28, 2021 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Michel Kohanim said: Not knowing much about HA, their business model, and their device/licensing requirements, I cannot make an informed comment. For instance, on Polisy, all USB/Serial port/network interfaces are owned by root and only accessed through udx. So, installing HA on Polisy without integration with udx and setting up permissions is not going to work. Also, someone will need to maintain the code and figure out licensing. This said, having HA UI + what they support as node servers is a no brainer. If there's a lot of interest, we'll definitely look into it. With kind regards, Michel This is an interesting topic. I have Alexa and Google Home in all rooms at home, an Iphone with UD Mobile and Home Assistant, but somehow I prefer using my browser to control my devices. (I know that I am somewhat eccentric having 3 computers throughout my home...). I installed Home Assistant on the RPi that was previously used for Polyglot and I find HA very friendly. I almost exclusively use HA to control my ISY devices and have not done any programming on HA. @MrBill has been a great help. While HA on RPi works perfectly fine, it would be interesting to have it run on Polisy though I am sure that UD has other priorities. Furthermore, and more imporant, I believe that ultimately UD Mobile will become usable in a browser and then HA would be less relevant for me. Edited December 28, 2021 by asbril
larryllix Posted December 28, 2021 Author Posted December 28, 2021 17 hours ago, simplextech said: <snipped> Long ago I developed the Hubitat NodeServer as it was a very clean way of providing access to Zigbee devices via the ISY. For the last couple years I didn't think anyone was actually using it and it only got very minor updates. Recently I learned someone was still using it so I've added another Zigbee device type to support that use. I was thinking that a Hubitat Elevation box would be a great interface for polisy to connect to most Zwave and ZigBee devices since it seems to be getting support from so many brands. How far did you get with your Hubitat NS? Do all connected devices show up in ISY and can all devices be controlled? Does the NS need to be upgraded for every new device added or does Hubitat make them sort of generic types? I would love to try one but it seems a bit expensive if it doesn't do what I want or get well supported by users / ISY. CAD = $206 + %13 taxes. States it includes both Zwave and ZigBee radios. "Integrates nicely with Lutron RadioRA2, RA2 Select, GrafikEye QS and Caséta (with SmartBridge PRO) lighting systems, including the Pico remote. " https://www.amazon.ca/Hubitat-Elevation-Home-Automation-Hub/dp/B07D19VVTX/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3HAI0E1CYRQSU&keywords=hubitat+elevation&qid=1640713722&sprefix=Hubitat%2Caps%2C152&sr=8-1
simplextech Posted December 28, 2021 Posted December 28, 2021 5 minutes ago, larryllix said: How far did you get with your Hubitat NS? Do all connected devices show up in ISY and can all devices be controlled? Does the NS need to be upgraded for every new device added or does Hubitat make them sort of generic types? Current NS supports most devices that present themselves with standard identifiers. There are some outliers and new devices that are not supported until the NS is updated. If I have a device that's not supported it's pretty easy to add support to the NS. 7 minutes ago, larryllix said: I would love to try one but it seems a bit expensive if it doesn't do what I want or get well supported by users / ISY. CAD = $206 + %13 taxes. Ouch! 8 minutes ago, larryllix said: States it includes both Zwave and ZigBee radios. "Integrates nicely with Lutron RadioRA2, RA2 Select, GrafikEye QS and Caséta (with SmartBridge PRO) lighting systems, including the Pico remote. " Fine Print: Integrates well with those yes. It states Caseta Pro bridge is required for Caseta. This does not imply that a Caseta Pro bridge is going to magically give you support for Radio Ra 2 or RA2 Select devices! 1
simplextech Posted December 28, 2021 Posted December 28, 2021 44 minutes ago, Michel Kohanim said: For instance, on Polisy, all USB/Serial port/network interfaces are owned by root and only accessed through udx. So, installing HA on Polisy without integration with udx and setting up permissions is not going to work. There's a couple of ways of installing Home Assistant. HA is written in python so it it will work, just takes some effort. First approach would be to install it directly to the system as a first class installation. Since people have root access they can add the home assistant user to the groups necessary to directly access the ports for use with USB adapters etc. Second approach would be a FreeBSD VM using Bhyve. This would be very easy. However this method (currently) would not provide access to the USB adapters as the USB passthrough in Bhyve is not very good (as far as I'm aware unless that's changed recently). This install would provide all of the HA functions and would be best suited for integration with the ISY for HA being a "frontend" but also providing access to the HA integrations.
vbPhil Posted March 28, 2022 Posted March 28, 2022 On 12/27/2021 at 5:06 PM, simplextech said: Long ago I developed the Hubitat Node server as it was a very clean way of providing access to Zigbee devices via the ISY. For the last couple years I didn't think anyone was actually using it and it only got very minor updates. Recently I learned someone was still using it so I've added another Zigbee device type to support that use. @simplextech You got my interest peaked with Hubitat Elevation for a Zigbee interface. I looked in the PG3 Node server Store for a NS but didn't see anything for Hubitat. I see it in PG2. Any thoughts of developing it for PG3?
simplextech Posted March 29, 2022 Posted March 29, 2022 11 hours ago, vbphil said: @simplextech You got my interest peaked with Hubitat Elevation for a Zigbee interface. I looked in the PG3 Node server Store for a NS but didn't see anything for Hubitat. I see it in PG2. Any thoughts of developing it for PG3? Yes in time. Along with a lot of overhaul to the PG2 version.
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