Mixing ZWave Version Devices?

[matapan]

I've been adding a few ZWave devices to my installation recently. A few plugin on/off modules to start. I have a Utiltech moisture sensor and a AT&T Digital Life garage door controller I'm thinking about adding.

After reading some of the posts here, and how there are different ZWave versions,  I was wondering if it's okay to mix old and new devices in a setup. Some ZWave 300, some 500 and 700. Or, do the devices that are used all have to be using the same version controller?

[matapan]

Also, can ZWave 300 devices act as repeaters for ZWave 500 or 700 devices? I can see a scenario where I use the old ZWave On/Off modules as repeaters to connect a ZWave 500/700 lock to ISY, for exampe.

[lilyoyo1]

52 minutes ago, matapan said:

Also, can ZWave 300 devices act as repeaters for ZWave 500 or 700 devices? I can see a scenario where I use the old ZWave On/Off modules as repeaters to connect a ZWave 500/700 lock to ISY, for exampe.

Yes they can. Zwave is backwards compatible. With that said, by using 300 series devices, you would not get the full benefits of 500/700 series

[asbril]

49 minutes ago, matapan said:

Also, can ZWave 300 devices act as repeaters for ZWave 500 or 700 devices? I can see a scenario where I use the old ZWave On/Off modules as repeaters to connect a ZWave 500/700 lock to ISY, for exampe.

The principle of Zwave is that all Zwave devices are compatible, but the mesh network uses the lowest specs in your setup.  Suppose that you have 10 Zwave 700 devices, 10 Zwave 500 and 1 Zwave 300, then in principle the whole network communicates at the specs of the 300 series. Using a 300 device as repeater in between a 700 device and the ISY will operate at the speed and distance of 300.

I would think that theoretically if your ISY  (on Polisy) has a 700 dongle and you have a 700 series device close to the ISY, then they would use the 700 speed and distance.  However the routes used by Zwave devices is not necessarily the most direct. Environmental conditions  (walls, furniture) may change the mesh network route.

Personally I have a strong Zwave setup (some 80 ZW devices) and therefore my mesh network is excellent, but I still have a few 300 series in difficult to reach places and I believe that my network would be faster without these 300 devices. However the difference might be minimum.

In short, I would not recommend to use 300 series devices as repeaters.

 

[simplextech]

1 hour ago, asbril said:

In short, I would not recommend to use 300 series devices as repeaters.

 

I wouldn't recommend to use ANY 300 series devices!!!  

Also note that sometimes the devices will downgrade their speed with no rhyme or reason from 100kb down to 40kb and sometimes drop to 9.6kbs for not good reason.  I've noticed this from time to time on devices and it makes no sense.  Yes I have a Z-Wave Zniffer

 

[matapan]

Thanks for the information. Nice to know that a ZWave network reverts to the lowest common denominator.

If it’s critical to ensure one is using only Zwave devices of a certain pedigree, how can you tell from the Admin console the relevant device information? With Insteon devices having the device name and version number is very helpful. Any similar information offered for ZWave devices? 300, 500, 700 type device?

[lilyoyo1]

1 hour ago, matapan said:

Thanks for the information. Nice to know that a ZWave network reverts to the lowest common denominator.

If it’s critical to ensure one is using only Zwave devices of a certain pedigree, how can you tell from the Admin console the relevant device information? With Insteon devices having the device name and version number is very helpful. Any similar information offered for ZWave devices? 300, 500, 700 type device?

No there is not. Generally you'll have to look at your model# to see what it is online. Generally anything you buy today will have the information concerning what series it is on the packaging and started online where you buy it from. 

[larryllix]

10 hours ago, asbril said:

The principle of Zwave is that all Zwave devices are compatible, but the mesh network uses the lowest specs in your setup.  Suppose that you have 10 Zwave 700 devices, 10 Zwave 500 and 1 Zwave 300, then in principle the whole network communicates at the specs of the 300 series. Using a 300 device as repeater in between a 700 device and the ISY will operate at the speed and distance of 300.

I would think that theoretically if your ISY  (on Polisy) has a 700 dongle and you have a 700 series device close to the ISY, then they would use the 700 speed and distance.  However the routes used by Zwave devices is not necessarily the most direct. Environmental conditions  (walls, furniture) may change the mesh network route.

Personally I have a strong Zwave setup (some 80 ZW devices) and therefore my mesh network is excellent, but I still have a few 300 series in difficult to reach places and I believe that my network would be faster without these 300 devices. However the difference might be minimum.

In short, I would not recommend to use 300 series devices as repeaters.

 

This sounds like, and logically makes sense, that using a 300 series devices would be typically OK as the 700 series devices would repeat it at higher speeds. (IOW: at the far outreaches of the mesh might be OK)

Is there any docs that can confirm and explain this further?

On a side topic: I am looking for a 700 series receptacle that can repeat signals well (would be closest to my SiLabs Zwave dongle) and also send load information back to polisy for washer and dryer finish detection. Any suggestions? I am not sure where to start.

[Bumbershoot]

17 minutes ago, larryllix said:

This sounds like, and logically makes sense, that using a 300 series devices would be typically OK as the 700 series devices would repeat it at higher speeds. (IOW: at the far outreaches of the mesh might be OK)

Is there any docs that can confirm and explain this further?

I've got this situation, but I don't really know how it works (though to be honest, the speed of my Z-Wave mesh seems to be fine):

I have a 300 series device (which is a repeater) in the crawl space of my house (Water Cop), and quite a few other 500 series devices in the area.  None of the 500 series devices put the Water Cop in the route to the ISY, but the Water Cop has 500 series devices in it's route to the ISY. 

It makes no sense that the speed of the Z-Wave mesh is limited by the existence of one series 300 device, when it's not in the route of the faster devices.   My sense is that Z-Wave devices will always choose the faster route, if one is available. 

[lilyoyo1]

1 hour ago, larryllix said:

This sounds like, and logically makes sense, that using a 300 series devices would be typically OK as the 700 series devices would repeat it at higher speeds. (IOW: at the far outreaches of the mesh might be OK)

Is there any docs that can confirm and explain this further?

On a side topic: I am looking for a 700 series receptacle that can repeat signals well (would be closest to my SiLabs Zwave dongle) and also send load information back to polisy for washer and dryer finish detection. Any suggestions? I am not sure where to start.

That is incorrect. Zwave will not use 700 speeds etc. If you have 300 series mixed in. It will use the lowest class for all communication. It does not pick and choose based on path etc. 

Since you're just starting out, you'd be better served to have all 700 series devices. Leviton has 700 series receptacles. Aeotech has the smart switch 7 which monitors energy use  if your dryer uses 110.

Keep in mind that range claims is all open air testing which doesn't always translate well once indoors. I've tested PowerG sensors outdoors and have seen them communicate over looking distances only to take them inside and have communication issues 40 feet away. It depends on your environment. Be prepared to invest in your mesh

Edited December 30, 2021 by lilyoyo1

[Bumbershoot]

1 hour ago, lilyoyo1 said:

That is incorrect. Zwave will not use 700 speeds etc. If you have 300 series mixed in. It will use the lowest class for all communication. It does not pick and choose based on path etc. 

The thing that I don't understand is that, even though I have a 300 series device in the mesh, I've been able to use Network Wide Inclusion with new devices that are quite a distance from the ISY, which isn't supported in 300 series devices.  If the entire mesh can only operate as it's least capable member, this shouldn't work. ?

EDIT: no Z-Wave + device has this 300 series device in it's route to the ISY.

Edited December 30, 2021 by Bumbershoot

[lilyoyo1]

19 minutes ago, Bumbershoot said:

The thing that I don't understand is that, even though I have a 300 series device in the mesh, I've been able to use Network Wide Inclusion with new devices that are quite a distance from the ISY, which isn't supported in 300 series devices.  If the entire mesh can only operate as it's least capable member, this shouldn't work. ?

You're confusing nwi with something different. Nwi is device based so as long as devices support it, then it will work (not all devices support nwi). This is why some people with 500 series devices still can't use nwi.

If you were to remove all of your 500 series devices and tried nwi from a distance with your 300 series devices, you'll find it doesn't work

A similar thing can be seen with battery powered devices. 500/700 series devices would last longer regardless of what series controller is used simply because improvements that led to it are device based vs controller based.

 

Edited December 30, 2021 by lilyoyo1

[Bumbershoot]

4 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

You're confusing nwi with something different. Nwi is device based so as long as devices support it, then it will work (not all devices support nwi).

These devices I've installed have all been either 500 or 700 series devices.  The last one was a 700 series light switch that I stuck in the wall in the far reaches of my garage (at least 75 feet from the ISY, with lots of 500 series devices to act as repeaters), and it included almost instantly.

My confusion is that if the mesh was forced to operate at the lowest common denominator (300 series level) by the one device, then this Z-Wave + feature shouldn't work at all.  This 300 series device is not used in any other devices path.

[lilyoyo1]

13 minutes ago, Bumbershoot said:

These devices I've installed have all been either 500 or 700 series devices.  The last one was a 700 series light switch that I stuck in the wall in the far reaches of my garage (at least 75 feet from the ISY, with lots of 500 series devices to act as repeaters), and it included almost instantly.

My confusion is that if the mesh was forced to operate at the lowest common denominator (300 series level) by the one device, then this Z-Wave + feature shouldn't work at all.  This 300 series device is not used in any other devices path.

You're confusing the mesh network communication with a device level capability. The same with insteon, adding a device is different than communicating with a device.

For example, your newer 700 series device processors will make your 500 series controller seen faster because they work quicker but that doesn't mean your 500 series is communicating at a faster pace. The devices themselves simply work better.

[Bumbershoot]

1 minute ago, lilyoyo1 said:

For example, your newer 700 series device processors will make your 500 series controller seen faster because they work quicker but that doesn't mean your 500 series is communicating at a faster pace. The devices themselves simply work better.

I'm entirely with you there. 

It's just that the explorer frames needed to include devices from long range don't exist in the 300 series network.  The 500 series controller (ISY) is indeed apparently is receiving the explorer frames, so the mesh is all 500 series from the device to the ISY.  This single 300 series device in the mesh does not seem to be affecting mesh communications when it's not being used as a repeater.

[asbril]

3 hours ago, larryllix said:

This sounds like, and logically makes sense, that using a 300 series devices would be typically OK as the 700 series devices would repeat it at higher speeds. (IOW: at the far outreaches of the mesh might be OK)

Is there any docs that can confirm and explain this further?

On a side topic: I am looking for a 700 series receptacle that can repeat signals well (would be closest to my SiLabs Zwave dongle) and also send load information back to polisy for washer and dryer finish detection. Any suggestions? I am not sure where to start.

Yes, in theory having a 300 at far end should allow for the rest of the mesh network to work as 500 or 700.

I am not aware of any documentation.

So far, I only have 1  700 series device, a light switch and I dont use smart receptacles since I abandoned X10.....

[larryllix]

12 hours ago, asbril said:

Yes, in theory having a 300 at far end should allow for the rest of the mesh network to work as 500 or 700.

I am not aware of any documentation.

So far, I only have 1  700 series device, a light switch and I dont use smart receptacles since I abandoned X10.....

Thanx Asbril!

I don't think I want a "smart receptacle" depending on how you define the "smart".  I want a load monitoring receptacle to monitor when the washer or dryer has stopped that automatically updates ISY with the load amount, or detected load (on/Off status, only like a SynchroLinc does.

When you posted "smart like X10" I think of a receptacle or plug-in that can detect the lamp switch and turn on the receptacle or X10 device automatically. The automatic turn on is not wanted, in my case.

[simplextech]

6 minutes ago, larryllix said:

I want a load monitoring receptacle to monitor when the washer or dryer has stopped that automatically updates ISY with the load amount, or detected load (on/Off status, only like a SynchroLinc does.

Not going work like the SynchroLinc but there are plenty of Z-Wave plugins that provide power monitoring and report to the ISY.  For things with decent load like washing machines and such make sure the plugin can handle motors and 15A.  I use the Zooz ZEN15 plugins for space heaters, fridge, deep freeze, AC window units... etc.  There's an Aeotec plugin that is good too but costs more than the ZEN15.

[larryllix]

24 minutes ago, simplextech said:

Not going work like the SynchroLinc but there are plenty of Z-Wave plugins that provide power monitoring and report to the ISY.  For things with decent load like washing machines and such make sure the plugin can handle motors and 15A.  I use the Zooz ZEN15 plugins for space heaters, fridge, deep freeze, AC window units... etc.  There's an Aeotec plugin that is good too but costs more than the ZEN15.

Thanks.  I never need to shut the dryer off (finished monitoring only) but I need both for the washing machine (finish notification, and water leak detection shutoff). I see this unit is a 500 series. Is there much difference between a 500 and 700 series?

These would be the first repeater points out of my polisy SiLab 700 dongle so I want a decent repeater function also.

Edited December 31, 2021 by larryllix

[simplextech]

9 hours ago, larryllix said:

Is there much difference between a 500 and 700 series?

Yes and No.  The 700 series do provide greater range which is the primary benefit.  Problem is that there aren't many 700 series devices yet. 

All Z-Wave powered devices repeat.  These do work well for growing the mesh.  They have a long cord so they aren't going to be great somewhere out in the open but behind an appliance or utility use they are great.