Grouping Z-wave devices into Scenes

[brians]

8 minutes ago, asbril said:

I am not sure what it means to have a "test Polisy" (*), but your instructions to change the settings on the PC may be too complicated for me. So, I will wait for what Michel posted earlier.

(*)  If this means having a separate Polisy for testing, then the answer is no.... I only have one Polisy.

Ok, what I meant was - I thought you were mainly using your ISY994i and have your only polisy for testing (what I meant as test polisy).

[asbril]

4 hours ago, brians said:

Ok, what I meant was - I thought you were mainly using your ISY994i and have your only polisy for testing (what I meant as test polisy).

Understood.  No testing, but you are right that the main part of my setup is still on ISY. However, I have some 12 Zwave devices on IoP

[brians]

I posted this originally in support thread for v5.4.3 but I think it would be better here so I am re posting.

 

Ok, I think I understand how it is supposed to work...

The controller knows/learns what each Z-Wave device on the network can support regarding associations and keeps track of this for each included device. This Native Links shows this when you right click for that particular one. If you go to the top Z-Wave advanced Show all all native links then you can see all the Z-Wave devices at once.

However, it seems like most of my devices only support Multilevel Switch, not Basic Control.

What Z-Wave plus refers to as common association groups:

Group 1: Lifeline (AKA Controller)
Group 2: Basic Set on/off
Group 4: Dim Up/Dim Down (Dimmers)

After installing new update I was looking at the native links for my Z-Wave devices.

Seems like IoP names Native Link Types as:

Group 2: Z-Wave Basic MC (MC_BASIC) (is a Basic Control node type)
Group 4: Z-Wave Dimmer (MLSW) (is a Multilevel Switch Node type)

So now when you have a Z-Wave device and it adds multiple nodes it sorta tells what they do by description.. it makes sense now that we have this tool. Some may be named like this for example:

ZW 014.2 Basic Control
ZW 015 Multilevel Switch

Adding these specific nodes to a scene will give you the appropriate option in scene pull down.

 

Now my issue is (and I think that everyone else has) is that the IoP does not seem to show Basic Control nodes for devices that "should" have them based on manufacturer specifications and how they apparently work with other controller hubs.... here is example of what I mean:

A  very common Jasco wall switch that should support basic control does not show up any of this capability and only has multilevel dimming options...

That shows it can control the listed Z-Wave dimmers I have included in my entire Z-Wave network eg. Dining Room Lamp.

Now if I look at my Zen17 relay, it has basic control and it can control all of these.. Note the Main Bathroom Fan is direct controllable which is the ZW 033 node I showed above - seems it can respond to Basic Control but does not have ability to control other devices via Basic Control?!?

And I confirm I can do this when I add the basic control node into a scene:

 

Therefore, I am wondering why none of my wall switches do not have basic set control nodes when the specifications appear like they should? In the case of my Jasco wall switch, it has the multilevel control so seems that it should also have basic control, and in my research reading elsewhere, it is advised that you add the dimmer switch to both Group 2 on/off and Group 4 dim (maybe dim doesn't turn the switch on/off and need the separate control?). Is it something IoP is missing, or are these manufacturers specs wrong, or am I just confused?

[asbril]

2 hours ago, brians said:

I posted this originally in support thread for v5.4.3 but I think it would be better here so I am re posting.

 

Ok, I think I understand how it is supposed to work...

The controller knows/learns what each Z-Wave device on the network can support regarding associations and keeps track of this for each included device. This Native Links shows this when you right click for that particular one. If you go to the top Z-Wave advanced Show all all native links then you can see all the Z-Wave devices at once.

However, it seems like most of my devices only support Multilevel Switch, not Basic Control.

What Z-Wave plus refers to as common association groups:

Group 1: Lifeline (AKA Controller)
Group 2: Basic Set on/off
Group 4: Dim Up/Dim Down (Dimmers)

After installing new update I was looking at the native links for my Z-Wave devices.

Seems like IoP names Native Link Types as:

Group 2: Z-Wave Basic MC (MC_BASIC) (is a Basic Control node type)
Group 4: Z-Wave Dimmer (MLSW) (is a Multilevel Switch Node type)

So now when you have a Z-Wave device and it adds multiple nodes it sorta tells what they do by description.. it makes sense now that we have this tool. Some may be named like this for example:

ZW 014.2 Basic Control
ZW 015 Multilevel Switch

Adding these specific nodes to a scene will give you the appropriate option in scene pull down.

 

Now my issue is (and I think that everyone else has) is that the IoP does not seem to show Basic Control nodes for devices that "should" have them based on manufacturer specifications and how they apparently work with other controller hubs.... here is example of what I mean:

A  very common Jasco wall switch that should support basic control does not show up any of this capability and only has multilevel dimming options...

That shows it can control the listed Z-Wave dimmers I have included in my entire Z-Wave network eg. Dining Room Lamp.

Now if I look at my Zen17 relay, it has basic control and it can control all of these.. Note the Main Bathroom Fan is direct controllable which is the ZW 033 node I showed above - seems it can respond to Basic Control but does not have ability to control other devices via Basic Control?!?

And I confirm I can do this when I add the basic control node into a scene:

 

Therefore, I am wondering why none of my wall switches do not have basic set control nodes when the specifications appear like they should? In the case of my Jasco wall switch, it has the multilevel control so seems that it should also have basic control, and in my research reading elsewhere, it is advised that you add the dimmer switch to both Group 2 on/off and Group 4 dim (maybe dim doesn't turn the switch on/off and need the separate control?). Is it something IoP is missing, or are these manufacturers specs wrong, or am I just confused?

Thanks @brians I am following your comments with great interest and trust that, with some time,  this will become clear and easy to work with. Thanks again !!!!

[brians]

I did some more experimenting with Z-Wave PC Controller.

Using an different test S2 stick, I included a Zen71 wall switch, and a Zen15 power switch.

Attached is a screenshot... node 3 is the Zen71, node 4 is the Zen15

Note that in the Zen71 (3 Power Switch Binary) I created a Node 4 under Group 2 (BASIC SET Group 1).

Node 4 is the Zen15 (it does not appear to support Group 2 as a controller itself).

Now when I turn on/off the Zen71 switch, the Zen15 also turns on/off instantly. I would say it seems as fast as Insteon.

However, I noticed that my S2 dongle needs to be powered on for this to work, if I unplug it the Zen15 no longer turns on/off with the Zen71... it is important to note that the dongle just needs power and the software Z-Wave PC Controller is not required to run - I actually confirmed this by plugging in the S2 Z-Wave dongle into a standalone USB power brick and the Zen15 still responds near instantly to the Zen17 on/off - unplug S2 dongle from power and no longer works!

What is going on here? It seems that the S2 dongle/controller on its own is handling the associations' communication but this is contrary to what direct association means where one device talks to another without requiring a hub (EDIT... I figured out in future post how to make work without dongle now).

Including a Zen71 to the IoP does not show any options for Basic Set

This confirms that I can do basic Group 2 set using PC Software to control another device, IoP does not work as expected in scenes because the BASIC MC option is not available. Hopefully UD can explain.

 

 

 

 

[peterathans]

Thanks @brians for continuing with the testing - I personally have been waiting for more info from UD, hoping that Polisy will (soon?) have some of this functionality built-in.

I'm curious what would happen if you have multiple Zen71 switches grouped in a similar fashion - would the status of each switch follow the other, similar to a virtual 3-way switch setup?

Your initial tests show some promise, but I agree it's a little confusing that the control still seems to be reliant on the dongle.  From everything I've read there should be a way for these devices to work independently.  Did your testing involve writing any configurations back to the Zen71 or Zen15?

[brians]

@peterathansi did not write any configurations to either device other than set the association in the pc software. I have more Zen71 I can test - just didn’t have an easy way to wire up to test right away but will try this weekend. I would have to make an association on each one so they would control each other.

Even if this way that dongle requires power, it’s still better than having the iop manually simulating a scene because that is more communication overhead through iop and back. Maybe iop scenes are already doing this internally and hiding it from us? (EDIT: No it is not - see next post)!

[brians]

Ok, I did another test with two Zen71 and a Zen15.

The Zen71 act like they are in a virtual 3-way and also turn on/off the Zen15.

Response is very fast, near instant. Even if I turn on one Zen71 from the PC software it turns the other devices associated instantly.

In this screenshot, the Zen71's are ID 7 and ID 8. The Zen15 is ID 9
You can see how each Group 2 controls the other Zen71, and both are controlling the Zen15 ID 9.

Still not sure why it requires the S2 stick powered on for this association to work, but maybe it just needs the presence of the stick to function, not sure if zwave traffic looping through the stick and back but it seems sort of too fast for this.

***UPDATE - I have learned that if I remove Group 1 association to the dongle from each switch it does not need the S2 controller plugged in anymore and switches are truly directly associated, not sure what other affects this will have (I can still turn on/off via basic set on/off within the PC software) but I am thinking it may not send updates to the controller, which is a feature that the PC software does not seem to have anyways so I do not know for sure.

 

To compare, I then included both same Zen71 in my IoP. I added both as a controller to a scene in IoP, and the response is much slower - turn on and takes about half a second or longer for other switch to turn on, sometimes even longer and is inconsistent. Also I found it buggy and unreliable... in a few minutes of testing the following happened a few times: when I turn one of then Zen 71 on or off the they both start turning on/off in an endless loop (I had this issue working with Zen32) and I have to remove one from the scene for it to stop. Therefore scenes for just Zwave do not seem reliable currently in IoP.

Therefore, I think the implementation of Z-Wave associations in scenes is not correct in current implantation of IoP and I hope that they fix this... What i have done is proof what is possible and If UDI can make the associations work the same way how I can do in the Silicon Labs PC software I have just tested then it will be amazingly fast! It seems IoP (and ISY too, but) is not recognizing Group 2 capabilities of most ZWave devices I have (others in this thread seem to experience same).

 

 

[brians]

Here is Zen71 ZWave information if required:

 

 

Sat 04/16/2022 11:47:49 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ] ----------------------------------------------
Sat 04/16/2022 11:47:49 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ] ZW 045 On-Off Power Switch
Sat 04/16/2022 11:47:49 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ] ZW045_1 uid=45 security=None type=4.16.1 mid=634 tid=28672 pid=40961
Sat 04/16/2022 11:47:49 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ] Association Group ID 1
Sat 04/16/2022 11:47:49 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -  x20  V2   BASIC
Sat 04/16/2022 11:47:49 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -  x5E  V2   ZWAVEPLUS_INFO
Sat 04/16/2022 11:47:49 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -  x25  V2   SWITCH_BINARY
Sat 04/16/2022 11:47:49 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -  x70  V4   CONFIGURATION
Sat 04/16/2022 11:47:49 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -  x5B  V3   CENTRAL_SCENE
Sat 04/16/2022 11:47:49 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -  x85  V3   ASSOCIATION
Sat 04/16/2022 11:47:49 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -  x8E  V4   MULTI_CHANNEL_ASSOCIATION
Sat 04/16/2022 11:47:49 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -  x59  V3   ASSOCIATION_GROUP_INFO
Sat 04/16/2022 11:47:49 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -  x55  V2   TRANSPORT_SERVICE
Sat 04/16/2022 11:47:49 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -  x86  V3   VERSION
Sat 04/16/2022 11:47:49 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -  x72  V2   MANUFACTURER_SPECIFIC
Sat 04/16/2022 11:47:49 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -  x5A  V1   DEVICE_RESET_LOCALLY
Sat 04/16/2022 11:47:49 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -  x87  V3   INDICATOR
Sat 04/16/2022 11:47:49 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -  x73  V1   POWERLEVEL
Sat 04/16/2022 11:47:49 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -  x9F  V1   SECURITY_2
Sat 04/16/2022 11:47:49 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -  x6C  V1   SUPERVISION
Sat 04/16/2022 11:47:49 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -  x7A  V5   FIRMWARE_UPDATE_MD
Sat 04/16/2022 11:47:49 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ] - Secure
Sat 04/16/2022 11:47:49 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]
Sat 04/16/2022 11:47:49 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ] Last working route from ISY to Node  45 - ZW 045 On-Off Power Switch
Sat 04/16/2022 11:47:49 PM : [ZWAVE-TX        ] [010400922D44]                          REQ ZW_GET_LAST_WORKING_ROUTE
Sat 04/16/2022 11:47:49 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]    - Direct
Sat 04/16/2022 11:47:49 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]
Sat 04/16/2022 11:47:50 PM : [ZWAVE-TX        ] [010700802D0000EEBB]                    REQ ZW_GET_ROUTING_INFO
Sat 04/16/2022 11:47:50 PM : [ZWAVE-TX        ] [010700802D0100EFBB]                    REQ ZW_GET_ROUTING_INFO
Sat 04/16/2022 11:47:50 PM : [ZWAVE-TX        ] [010700802D0001F0A4]                    REQ ZW_GET_ROUTING_INFO
Sat 04/16/2022 11:47:50 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ] Node  45 - ZW 045 On-Off Power Switch has the following neighbors
Sat 04/16/2022 11:47:50 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]    - Repeater - Node   1 - [This ISY]
Sat 04/16/2022 11:47:50 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]    - Repeater - Node   2 - Living Room Outlet Front
Sat 04/16/2022 11:47:50 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]    - Repeater - Node   3 - WaterCop
Sat 04/16/2022 11:47:50 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]    - Repeater - Node   4 - Family Room Bird Lamp
Sat 04/16/2022 11:47:50 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -          - Node   7 - Front Door
Sat 04/16/2022 11:47:50 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]    - Repeater - Node  14 - ZW 014 Lift Pump ZEN17
Sat 04/16/2022 11:47:50 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]    - Repeater - Node  15 - Downstairs Hallway
Sat 04/16/2022 11:47:50 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]    - Repeater - Node  16 - Family Room Xmas Tree
Sat 04/16/2022 11:47:50 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]    - Repeater - Node  17 - Master Bedroom Lamp
Sat 04/16/2022 11:47:50 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]    - Repeater - Node  18 - Living Room Xmas Tree
Sat 04/16/2022 11:47:50 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]    - Repeater - Node  19 - Rec Room N
Sat 04/16/2022 11:47:50 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]    - Repeater - Node  20 - Rec Room S
Sat 04/16/2022 11:47:50 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]    - Repeater - Node  21 - Dining Room Lamp
Sat 04/16/2022 11:47:50 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]    - Repeater - Node  22 - Main Bathroom Light
Sat 04/16/2022 11:47:50 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]    - Repeater - Node  27 - Outside Xmas
Sat 04/16/2022 11:47:50 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]
Sat 04/16/2022 11:47:50 PM : [ZWAVE-TX ZW045_1] [8E/05] CC=0x8E cmd=0x05 [] ACK,AUTO,EXPLORE To=0x2D
Sat 04/16/2022 11:47:50 PM : [ZWAVE-RX ZW045_1] [8E/06] CC=0x8E cmd=0x06 [03] ACK,AUTO,EXPLORE From=0x2D
Sat 04/16/2022 11:47:50 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ] Node  45 - ZW 045 On-Off Power Switch has 3 association groups
Sat 04/16/2022 11:47:50 PM : [ZWAVE-TX ZW045_1] [8E/02] CC=0x8E cmd=0x02 [01] ACK,AUTO,EXPLORE To=0x2D
Sat 04/16/2022 11:47:51 PM : [ZWAVE-RX ZW045_1] [8E/03] CC=0x8E cmd=0x03 [01010001] ACK,AUTO,EXPLORE From=0x2D
Sat 04/16/2022 11:47:51 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]    Associations for group 001 of ZW045_1 ZW 045 On-Off Power Switch
Sat 04/16/2022 11:47:51 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]    Max Associations = 1
Sat 04/16/2022 11:47:51 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]       - Node   1 - [This ISY]
Sat 04/16/2022 11:47:51 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]
Sat 04/16/2022 11:47:51 PM : [ZWAVE-TX ZW045_1] [8E/02] CC=0x8E cmd=0x02 [02] ACK,AUTO,EXPLORE To=0x2D
Sat 04/16/2022 11:47:51 PM : [ZWAVE-RX ZW045_1] [8E/03] CC=0x8E cmd=0x03 [02050001] ACK,AUTO,EXPLORE From=0x2D
Sat 04/16/2022 11:47:51 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]    Associations for group 002 of ZW045_252N002 ZW 045 Basic Scene Ctl 2
Sat 04/16/2022 11:47:51 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]    Max Associations = 5
Sat 04/16/2022 11:47:51 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]       - Node   1 - [This ISY]
Sat 04/16/2022 11:47:51 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]
Sat 04/16/2022 11:47:51 PM : [ZWAVE-TX ZW045_1] [8E/02] CC=0x8E cmd=0x02 [03] ACK,AUTO,EXPLORE To=0x2D
Sat 04/16/2022 11:47:51 PM : [ZWAVE-RX ZW045_1] [8E/03] CC=0x8E cmd=0x03 [03050001] ACK,AUTO,EXPLORE From=0x2D
Sat 04/16/2022 11:47:51 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]    Associations for group 003 of ZW045_252N003 ZW 045 Basic Scene Ctl 3
Sat 04/16/2022 11:47:51 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]    Max Associations = 5
Sat 04/16/2022 11:47:51 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]       - Node   1 - [This ISY]
Sat 04/16/2022 11:47:51 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]
Sat 04/16/2022 11:47:51 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ] ----------------------------------------------

 

[brians]

Couple videos. First is iop scene and fails within a couple tries and loops. You can hear the second click delayed as it is not a direct association and goes through IoP.

Second is group 2 association setup on PC ZWave Controller software afterwards does not require controller or dongle. Check out the response speed seems similar to Insteon. I can't press the buttons really quicker than that!

[brians]

Oh here is more testing.

On my Test ISY994i I included both Zen71 switches.

I linked the PC Controller with S2 Zwave dongle to my Test ISY994i. Sometimes doesn't work right away so have to keep trying... it ended up as ZW 006 on the ISY.

I can then go on the PC controller and set the Group 2 associations independently of the ISY in real-time and it works the same as my previous posts.

Both are "permanently" linked now outside of ISY, it is not possible to turn on/off individually in ISY - eg. if turn one on, the other comes on, vice versa. Of course, it is not really permanent and I can just go and remove association via PC controller and it takes affect instantly (this will be much easier if is supported in IoP). Note that this will take away some logic and ISY abilities for individual switch control.

Removing Group 1 lifeline nodes from each of the switches improves performance, but the ISY still sees the status updates so not sure exactly how this works  but I think it is sending more info and requiring ACK from ISY which would take more time - I looked briefly at logs but didn't have time to come to a full conclusion right now.

One use I can think for this is a proper virtual 3-way, which is a big reason why I have not liked Z-Wave as much.

(before doing all of this I also tried putting the Zen71's in a scene on my test ISY994i and also experienced the on/off looping I mentioned before so this is not just limited to IoP).

I will do up a tutorial for this eventually after I test on my IoP.

 

Here is info in event viewer for ZW 002 and it even shows the association group 2 now for other switch...

Sun 04/17/2022 01:48:17 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ] ----------------------------------------------
Sun 04/17/2022 01:48:17 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ] ZW 002 On-Off Power Switch
Sun 04/17/2022 01:48:17 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ] ZW002_1 uid=2 security=None type=4.16.1 mid=634 tid=28672 pid=40961
Sun 04/17/2022 01:48:17 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ] Association Group ID 1
Sun 04/17/2022 01:48:58 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -  x20  V2   BASIC
Sun 04/17/2022 01:48:58 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -  x5E  V2   ZWAVEPLUS_INFO
Sun 04/17/2022 01:48:58 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -  x25  V2   SWITCH_BINARY
Sun 04/17/2022 01:48:58 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -  x70  V4   CONFIGURATION
Sun 04/17/2022 01:48:58 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -  x5B  V3   CENTRAL_SCENE
Sun 04/17/2022 01:48:58 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -  x85  V3   ASSOCIATION
Sun 04/17/2022 01:48:58 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -  x8E  V4   MULTI_CHANNEL_ASSOCIATION
Sun 04/17/2022 01:48:58 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -  x59  V3   ASSOCIATION_GROUP_INFO
Sun 04/17/2022 01:48:58 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -  x55  V2   TRANSPORT_SERVICE
Sun 04/17/2022 01:48:58 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -  x86  V3   VERSION
Sun 04/17/2022 01:48:58 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -  x72  V2   MANUFACTURER_SPECIFIC
Sun 04/17/2022 01:48:58 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -  x5A  V1   DEVICE_RESET_LOCALLY
Sun 04/17/2022 01:48:58 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -  x87  V3   INDICATOR
Sun 04/17/2022 01:48:58 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -  x73  V1   POWERLEVEL
Sun 04/17/2022 01:48:58 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -  x9F  V1   SECURITY_2
Sun 04/17/2022 01:48:58 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -  x6C  V1   SUPERVISION
Sun 04/17/2022 01:48:58 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -  x7A  V5   FIRMWARE_UPDATE_MD
Sun 04/17/2022 01:48:58 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ] - Secure
Sun 04/17/2022 01:48:58 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]
Sun 04/17/2022 01:48:58 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ] Last working route from ISY to Node   2 - ZW 002 On-Off Power Switch
Sun 04/17/2022 01:48:58 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]    - Node   3 - ZW 003 On-Off Power Switch
Sun 04/17/2022 01:48:58 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]
Sun 04/17/2022 01:48:58 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ] Node   2 - ZW 002 On-Off Power Switch has the following neighbors
Sun 04/17/2022 01:48:58 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]    - Repeater - Node   1 - [This ISY]
Sun 04/17/2022 01:48:58 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]    - Repeater - Node   3 - ZW 003 On-Off Power Switch
Sun 04/17/2022 01:48:58 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]    - Repeater - Node   7 - ZW 007 On-Off Power Switch
Sun 04/17/2022 01:48:58 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]
Sun 04/17/2022 01:48:59 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ] Node   2 - ZW 002 On-Off Power Switch has 3 association groups
Sun 04/17/2022 01:49:00 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]    Associations for group 002 of ZW002_252N002 ZW 002 Basic Scene Ctl 2
Sun 04/17/2022 01:49:00 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]    Max Associations = 5
Sun 04/17/2022 01:49:00 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]       - Node   3 - ZW 003 On-Off Power Switch
Sun 04/17/2022 01:49:00 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]
Sun 04/17/2022 01:49:00 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]    Associations for group 003 of ZW002_252N003 ZW 002 Basic Scene Ctl 3
Sun 04/17/2022 01:49:00 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]    Max Associations = 5
Sun 04/17/2022 01:49:00 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]       - Node   1 - [This ISY]
Sun 04/17/2022 01:49:00 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]
Sun 04/17/2022 01:49:00 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ] ----------------------------------------------
Sun 04/17/2022 01:49:21 PM : [ZWAVE-RX ZW007_1] [32/02] CC=0x32 cmd=0x02 [A1640001CFC00000] ACK,AUTO,EXPLORE From=0x07
Sun 04/17/2022 01:49:21 PM : [D2D EVENT   ] Event [ZW007_143] [CV] [118720] uom=72 prec=3
Sun 04/17/2022 01:49:21 PM : [   ZW007_143]       CV 118720 (uom=72 prec=3)
Sun 04/17/2022 01:49:21 PM : [ZWAVE-RX ZW007_1] [32/02] CC=0x32 cmd=0x02 [A16C000000000000] ACK,AUTO,EXPLORE From=0x07
Sun 04/17/2022 01:49:21 PM : [ZWAVE-RX ZW007_1] [32/02] CC=0x32 cmd=0x02 [216400000000012B00000000] ACK,AUTO,EXPLORE From=0x07
Sun 04/17/2022 01:49:21 PM : [ZWAVE-RX ZW007_1] [32/02] CC=0x32 cmd=0x02 [2174000000000000] ACK,AUTO,EXPLORE From=0x07

 

[peterathans]

@brians great job with all the testing!  The true 3-way switch operation is exactly what I am looking for (and in fact I have a 4-way switch setup but assume your findings will scale).

@Michel Kohanim, are there plans to have IoP support these features so we don't have to use 3rd party software to make these changes?  If so, is there an ETA?

[asbril]

46 minutes ago, peterathans said:

@brians great job with all the testing! 

Yes, thanks @brians !

[brians]

@peterathansIt will work with more switches. The limit is 5 associated devices for each controlling device. I had setup my Zen15 which also turns on/off with either of the Zen71. However, I believe that with this type of direct association, the devices need to communicate directly and do not route through other switches. Therefore both switches should be in close proximity to each other. If using a pair in a hallway or same room I do not see an issue. If using dimmers you will also have to add destination nodes to group 3 (that is "standard" dimming group but some switches may be different) in addition to group 2.

Now that I been learning more about Z-Wave, it seems that what I have done here is not really uncommon, and others have been doing this for years similarly to how I have. Some controllers have this ability built-in, others have a utility that you run; there is lots of explanation all over how these associations work - once you know what to look for. I am hoping that UDI fixes this, especially now with Insteon gone, Zwave will be much more relevant to Polisy and IoP.

 

Disclaimer: Do the following at your own risk... I do not take responsibility for you messing up your Z-Wave network! This is for fun and experimentation only... I have used a separate test system to be comfortable with it first. I have tested on IoP but following screenshots are from my ISY.. .but it will be the same.

For those who have another S2 stick and another test system eg. ISY or IoP, and want to experiment with this, this is how to include the ISY controller on PC software... On the network management screen, click Select Learn Mode, then NWI, then go to your IoP or ISY, select Z-Wave, Add a Z-Wave device. It should take a while but all the nodes will eventually appear in the Z-Wave PC Controller and you will see a new [S0] Pc Controller in the PC software. If it doesn't work just try again. I had to try 2 or 3 times on my IoP before it added without errors.

 

The ISY will also have the same node number eg. ZW 006 PC Controller but it doesn't do anything from that end. I found that querying it sometimes will cause an error. It can be disabled so the 3am query program ignores it if proves to be an issue. The idea is to keep the 2nd stick always around to do quick changes/updates to associations without having to include it each time (even firmware updates probably).

If you make changes to Z-Wave on ISY like including/excluding a new device, just press the Update button on the PC Controller and it will add those devices in, or remove ones you deleted from ISY. Also don't exclude/include devices using the PC because I don't think ISY will be able to pull them in. Always include/exclude from ISY. If you do exclude or delete it from the PC controller, you can always replace failed node on ISY and it will bring it back (I have tested this a few times and works), then of course update on PC again.

I would suggest not adjusting any of your existing Z-Wave devices at first, but instead work with a couple test devices to experiment on. Make sure you use the correct node numbers and correlate them from ISY to PC software.

If no associations show, just select a device and get press Node Info button, then should appear. I found that removing lifeline id 1 (the ISY) from group 1 makes it perform better - the associated switch turns on/off quicker and more reliable, and probably will make it work without IoP being on on (as I discovered earlier testing with the S2 stick only) but I did not shut down IoP to test this yet.

To remove/exclude the PC controller entirely, make sure it is enabled on ISY, and do a Z-Wave, Remove a Z-Wave device on ISY, then on PC Select Learn Mode but this time NWE (Network Wide Exclusion). Note that any direct associations you made will still will exist on the source devices, and to remove them you would have to include the controller back again and change, or exclude the particular device from IoP and include it again (which resets the device in process).

If you don't have an extra stick you can try this but extra warning because I have not tried this: shut down Polisy, remove the S2 stick and place in PC and launch the Z-Wave PC Controller... backup the NVM first in PC software (it is on the Home screen or the icon in lower left). Then do your associations, remove stick, put back in Polisy and boot up. Make note of your node numbers of devices in IoP first so you reference the correct ones on PC.

Even though both switches will be associated together as one switch, they can still be placed in a scene with other devices- just set each switch to ignore turning the other on/off in the scene option pulldown so they don't send extra redundant traffic to each other.

Here is one final screenshot of my IoP and Z-Wave PC Controller with both Zen71 id 50 and 51 setup for direct association, in a scene together (not really needed in this case).

Since this screenshot, I went and added the Zen15 power switch into the test scene as a responder and am able to turn it on and off it from either Zen71. As a general rule, I suggest just using this type of direct association for wall switches eg. virtual 3-way, 4-way where the switches are meant to be synchronized always. There is no real need to setup an association to turn on a Zen15 plug and is better handled by the IoP logic, otherwise things can get confusing if you forgot about an association somewhere.

[peterathans]

Any status update on whether the ability to group into Scenes can someday be done through Polisy instead of using the zwave software? @Michel Kohanim