Michel Kohanim Posted February 10, 2022 Posted February 10, 2022 19 hours ago, asbril said: other than the choice of Command, Default, Ignore. Hi Seno, and there lies the problem. If those devices supported native Z-Wave scene, you would see either Scene or Association in the dropbox. With kind regards, Michel 1
roberthleeii Posted February 10, 2022 Author Posted February 10, 2022 10 minutes ago, Michel Kohanim said: Hi Seno, and there lies the problem. If those devices supported native Z-Wave scene, you would see either Scene or Association in the dropbox. With kind regards, Michel I assume this is a firmware issue with the zen32. I wonder if zooz can update this in the future.... I have a homeseer switch and it does not have those options either. I find it disturbing that both of these don't implement the z-wave scenes appropriately.
asbril Posted February 10, 2022 Posted February 10, 2022 29 minutes ago, Michel Kohanim said: Hi Seno, and there lies the problem. If those devices supported native Z-Wave scene, you would see either Scene or Association in the dropbox. With kind regards, Michel This is interesting Michel, I just checked several of my most recent Zwave Plus and 7 switches, and none of these have either Scene or Association in the dropbox, only Command etc. I wonder which brand switches are native Zwave scene compatible. 1
Techman Posted February 10, 2022 Posted February 10, 2022 I just took a look at my Aeotec Smart Switch 7, it also doesn't have a scene or association option.
asbril Posted February 11, 2022 Posted February 11, 2022 (edited) On 2/10/2022 at 10:39 AM, Michel Kohanim said: Hi Seno, and there lies the problem. If those devices supported native Z-Wave scene, you would see either Scene or Association in the dropbox. With kind regards, Michel Does anyone have an idea on this ? Apparently there is a difference between Zwave Plus (or 700 series) switches with Scene capability and Zwave switches with Native Zwave Scene. I have recent Zwave Plus and 700 series switches, but none seem to have the "native Zwave Scene" capability. I either do something wrong or I need to know which Zwave switches have "native Zwave Scene" capability ? Anyone ???? Edited February 11, 2022 by asbril
upstatemike Posted February 11, 2022 Posted February 11, 2022 I'm assuming in this conversation that "ZWave native scene" refers to scene capability as defined within the ZWave protocol and "ZWave Scene" refers ISY scene capability as applied to ZWave devices... have I got that straight?
xlurkr Posted February 11, 2022 Posted February 11, 2022 From the manual. I don't speak z-wave, so I don't understand it. -Tom
Michel Kohanim Posted February 11, 2022 Posted February 11, 2022 @upstatemike, correct. @asbril, association is rare but I am surprised there are no scenes. With kind regards, Michel
asbril Posted February 11, 2022 Posted February 11, 2022 3 hours ago, Michel Kohanim said: association is rare but I am surprised there are no scenes. only Default, Command and Ignore
Michel Kohanim Posted February 14, 2022 Posted February 14, 2022 @asbril, I am very very surprised. Is this the case for all your switches? With kind regards, Michel
asbril Posted February 14, 2022 Posted February 14, 2022 3 hours ago, Michel Kohanim said: @asbril, I am very very surprised. Is this the case for all your switches? With kind regards, Michel Yes, all my Scene capable switches only have Default/Command/Ignore
asbril Posted February 14, 2022 Posted February 14, 2022 5 hours ago, asbril said: Yes, all my Scene capable switches only have Default/Command/Ignore Does anyone have Association as pull-down option with Zwave Scene-capable switches ? 1
roberthleeii Posted February 15, 2022 Author Posted February 15, 2022 10 hours ago, Michel Kohanim said: @asbril, I am very very surprised. Is this the case for all your switches? With kind regards, Michel 7 hours ago, asbril said: Yes, all my Scene capable switches only have Default/Command/Ignore 2 hours ago, asbril said: Does anyone have Association as pull-down option with Zwave Scene-capable switches ? I would be curious to see what controllers do implement this...
asbril Posted February 15, 2022 Posted February 15, 2022 13 hours ago, asbril said: Does anyone have Association as pull-down option with Zwave Scene-capable switches ? I found this website and I am trying to understand more : https://www.vesternet.com/en-us/pages/z-wave-groups-scenes-associations
upstatemike Posted February 15, 2022 Posted February 15, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, asbril said: I found this website and I am trying to understand more : https://www.vesternet.com/en-us/pages/z-wave-groups-scenes-associations This website creates more questions for me than it answers about the complexity of the Z-Wave protocol: Why are there "routing slaves" and "normal slaves"? Why aren't all line powered Z-Wave devices capable of routing? Why have Direct Associations? Even battery devices should be able to be associated using the routed network to reach the destination device. What exactly is a "static controller"? Does that mean there are also "dynamic controllers"? It looks like Z-Wave implements scenes by sending a routed message to each device in the scene as to what setting it should change to. This sounds very slow and inefficient. Why not simply use a broadcast to trigger a scene number and have each device already know how to react to that scene number and adjust itself accordingly? It seems like 1 broadcast message would make a lot more sense than many sequential routed messages. Edited February 15, 2022 by upstatemike
lilyoyo1 Posted February 15, 2022 Posted February 15, 2022 2 hours ago, asbril said: I found this website and I am trying to understand more : https://www.vesternet.com/en-us/pages/z-wave-groups-scenes-associations All of my frustrations with zwave summed up in 1 post. It's a convoluted mess which is why I pretty much refuse to use the protocol outside of ancillary devices. Every controller handles things differently (if they support them at all). I know homeseer and fibaro's home center controller has specific sections to set up the associations that you choose using the proper group#. But, each device has to support what you're trying to do to make it work. Since they talk about alot of different things in the article, which parts are you having problems understanding?
asbril Posted February 15, 2022 Posted February 15, 2022 35 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said: Since they talk about alot of different things in the article, which parts are you having problems understanding? By now, after all these years together on this forum, you know that I am not technically very smart. I agreed with @upstatemike that the website is confusing. Apparently Vesternet is Europe based and not very active in the US. What I am trying to find out / understand is something that @Michel Kohanim had also told me, which is that (theoretically) Zwave has direct association between devices, which is something that previously I considered to be a special advantage of Insteon over Zwave. Direct Association would speed up Scenes and could be a big thing for me, but even though I have several recently purchased Scene capable switches, I do not see where I can find the Association. I will however keep searching the internet....
lilyoyo1 Posted February 15, 2022 Posted February 15, 2022 1 hour ago, upstatemike said: This website creates more questions for me than it answers about the complexity of the Z-Wave protocol: Why are there "routing slaves" and "normal slaves"? Why aren't all line powered Z-Wave devices capable of routing? Why have Direct Associations? Even battery devices should be able to be associated using the routed network to reach the destination device. What exactly is a "static controller"? Does that mean there are also "dynamic controllers"? It looks like Z-Wave implements scenes by sending a routed message to each device in the scene as to what setting it should change to. This sounds very slow and inefficient. Why not simply use a broadcast to trigger a scene number and have each device already know how to react to that scene number and adjust itself accordingly? It seems like 1 broadcast message would make a lot more sense than many sequential routed messages. The way zwave communicates has always been a hangup with many people. This is why you get the popcorn effect when turning off groups of devices. Since they use routed messages in general for their mesh, I assume it would cause more issues to send a group trigger at once along different routes than 1 command at a time. The idea for direct association was to lessen the load on a controller and speed up communication. Using their own example of a motion sensor and a switch; do you really need a controller slowing down response for that. If you have dynamic lighting (lighting profiles for difference situations), then a controller managing things makes sense. But if you have a simple light that will turn on/off, does it matter? All hardwired devices can be repeaters along a route. What they are referring to is specifically being able to control another device and being aware of how/where to send information. To break it down, a standard device along the signal path only knows the device it's supposed to listen out for and repeat to. In essence, switch 2 knows switch 1 will send a command to it and that it needs to talk to switch 6. It has no idea that switch 3,4,and 5 are out there A scene capable controller on the other hand can talk to devices not on its route. This means it can learn and make paths so that it's signal can get to those other devices. Going off what I said about normal devices, switch 1 knows about switches 1-20 and uses 3, 7, and 11 to talk to switch 15. I don't know why they chose this path. My guess would be cost savings. While It does result in less congestion and clashes vs a broadcast message, it also saves on programming since an OEM doesn't have to do extra coding to make things work. A static controller is simply the main processor such as the Isy that provides an application to allow you to set up your devices.
lilyoyo1 Posted February 15, 2022 Posted February 15, 2022 7 minutes ago, asbril said: By now, after all these years together on this forum, you know that I am not technically very smart. I agreed with @upstatemike that the website is confusing. Apparently Vesternet is Europe based and not very active in the US. What I am trying to find out / understand is something that @Michel Kohanim had also told me, which is that (theoretically) Zwave has direct association between devices, which is something that previously I considered to be a special advantage of Insteon over Zwave. Direct Association would speed up Scenes and could be a big thing for me, but even though I have several recently purchased Scene capable switches, I do not see where I can find the Association. I will however keep searching the internet.... DA is ok but still falls short of insteon in that responding devices do not report status when turned on in this manner. I haven't quite figured out how the Isy handles this but with the way I program things, it's not really helpful to me due to that limitation 1
brians Posted February 15, 2022 Posted February 15, 2022 I have been following this thread... and I keep reading "if you are on 5.3.4", so is this something not available in current Polisy 5.3.0? I don't see this Scene or Association on any of my recent Z-Wave switches either - just default, command, ignore, so I presume that the ISY handles all of the scene communication in this case.
upstatemike Posted February 15, 2022 Posted February 15, 2022 I think the root of the problem is using routing for automation communication in the first place. If you use broadcasts and have each neighbor repeat everything instead of calculating where to send it you have faster response, a more robust mesh, and avoid isuues like popcorn effect or the main controller not being aware of status chages made by local actions or direct associations. I hope the up and coming new protocols avoid going down the routed communication rathole. I haven't seen anything specific about Lutron RadioRA3 communication specs but the setup instructions, ensuring each device is in range of at least two others, suggests it is using repeated broadacsts rather than routing.
oberkc Posted February 15, 2022 Posted February 15, 2022 18 hours ago, asbril said: Does anyone have Association as pull-down option with Zwave Scene-capable switches ? None of my zwave devices in scenes include such options, unfortunately. In the varios threads on this, I do not recall anyone claiming to have seen this option.
asbril Posted February 15, 2022 Posted February 15, 2022 2 hours ago, oberkc said: None of my zwave devices in scenes include such options, unfortunately. In the varios threads on this, I do not recall anyone claiming to have seen this option. Thanks. It appears to exist somewhere in the Zwave 'world' but pretty much hidden ?
oberkc Posted February 15, 2022 Posted February 15, 2022 2 hours ago, asbril said: Thanks. It appears to exist somewhere in the Zwave 'world' but pretty much hidden ? I don't know if it is, simply, that I don't have the correct zwave devices or whether it is a bug in the ISY software or something else. I would sure like to hear of someone who has actually seen those options on their ISY and which zwave devices they use. 1
bhihifi Posted March 4, 2022 Posted March 4, 2022 I have the Linear/Nortek WD1000Z-1 dimmer whose documentation states that it supports Association (see highlighted section on page 2 of the attached PDF). Below, I have a screen shot of this device added to a scene with another Z-wave on/off device, showing the command button and pull-down menu. There is no Association selection. Based on @Michel Kohanim's post above, I would expect to see Association in the pull-down. Linear (Nortek) WD1000Z-1.pdf
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