2448A7 - Communications Problem?

[JTsao]

I've been running ISY-Polisy with the 2448A7 after moving from the ISY994+Serial PLM - I have noticed that frequently, motion sensors, remote controls and UD-Mobile are not consistently turning on lights (and other weird behavior) - I re-wrote a program to control the lights in 1 room using UD Mobile and added two sets of commands to set the lights up in the proper state and it works better than the version that only sends one command - this leads me to believe that commands from the 2448A7 are not making it to the devices - I have some questions about this - (1) does the Insteon protocol have an acknowledgement to verify delivery of the command? - (2) Is having the 2448A7 located right next to the Zooz USB stick a problem? - (3) The 2448A7 is within 2-3 feet of a couple of dual band light switches - shouldn't that be sufficient for the RF signal to get to the powerline? - (4) What can I do to improve this problem?  (does changing the # of retries under Advanced->PLM communication help?) - (5) Does anyone else see this problem?  Thanks in advance for any replies

[Michel Kohanim]

@JTsao, let's start with motion sensors. Are they in a scene or through programs in Polisy? I don't think Zooz would be the cause because a) INSTEON is at 832Mhz and Z-Wave is at 916Mhz and b) I don't have this problem at the office. 

Are communications to your dual band devices always reliable?

With kind regards,
Michel

[JTsao]

I did some investigation into one room where I use light switches, a remote control (via Hue Emulator nodeserver) and some commands/programs via the UD mobile app - it appears that one of 3 Insteon switches for that room does not reliably receive commands - strange, because the other 2 work fine and all 3 are in the same junction box in the room.  (These are all dual band switches).  I tried turning the circuit breaker on and off, pulling the air gap and doing a "restore device", "write updates to device" and increasing the # of retries to get the switch to work better, but right now the only thing that makes it more reliable is to have the ISY program turn the scene on/off 3X in a row.

I am speculating that this may be a problem device and/or use of a wireless hub is less reliable than a wired one.  I haven't looked into some of the other weird behaviors yet.

Answers to questions - motion sensors are NOT in scenes - dual band devices were rock solid using the ISY and serial PLM

Edited February 14, 2022 by JTsao

[JTsao]

I re-coded all of my motion detector rooms to use a state machine with state variables - I can see that the lighting sometimes does not match the state - this indicates that the command to turn lights on or off is not being received for some reason - I have a LOT of Insteon dual band switches in my house - not sure why the commands sent from the 2448A7 are not being received

[Brian H]

If it is a SwitchLinc dual band switch. Dimmer or Relay type.

The RF receiver antenna is on the back side of the switch and possibly not reliably reaching the problem switch. Especially if the antennas are not aligned to each other.

[JTsao]

After some experimentation and after combing through the forums, I think I have learned some things about Insteon:

1 - If an ISY program sends a command to turn on a scene, there is no verification, checking or retries to make sure all devices are actually on (although it appears the Insteon protocol may support this)

2 - if an ISY program sends a command to turn on a device, the ISY performs a check to make sure it is on

Can anyone confirm that the above is true?

 

My conclusion is that if I see instances where a scene command doesn't consistently work in a program, I should try re-writing and issue individual device commands to the devices in the scene instead.  This appears to be the case, but I probably need to test further.  Obviously, this is more practical when dealing with a small # of devices in a scene.  I have also seen that sending the scene command more than once also increases reliability.

For some reason, I have also observed that, in my case, an ISY program sending two consecutive scene commands to turn on/off two devices right next to each other (one in each scene) is less reliable than sending a single scene command to set those same two devices to the desired states (if they are both in the same scene).  I am not sure of a good reason why this is happening, but this is how the program was operating when I first noticed issues.

Overall, since I have been performing some program cleanup and reorganization with scenes, state machines, etc., I am unsure if introducing the 2448A7 is directly related to some problems that I have observed or not.  Modifying the programs per above seems to have increased reliability, but I am not sure if it is at 100% (need more testing).  Can anyone comment on whether or not a wired PLM communicates better than the 2448A7?

 

Edited February 16, 2022 by JTsao

[lilyoyo1]

I think it's the 2448a7. I have 2 polisy's set up. 1 with the PLM and 1 with the USB stick (both have different zwave boards too). The one with the PLM doesn't have any issues with talking to the same devices that the 2448a7 has. Both are in the same location and trying to talk to the same devices. The 2448a7 will miss button presses resulting in me restoring the device whereas the PLM will work flawlessly. 

The power line signal works faster than the Rf signal so there may be a slight decrease in communication (possibly imperceptible). I suspect the board being smaller means its a slower processor in the USB stick as well vs the PLM. 

Scenes will always work faster than programs so i use scenes for everything (programs will trigger my scenes too). Insteon devices will receive a response from responders but the Isy does not status devices when controlled via scenes. This is why you may see a switch blink red due to not getting a response. 

I've moved some of my setup to the 2448a7 for longer term testing so hopefully future updates will make things better as I'd rather use that than the PLM which takes up space. 

[MrBill]

21 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said:

2448a7

I don't have a 2448a7 but I've been wondering about performance across the 2 phases of the home electrical system.

Specifically, does the radio of the 2448a7 need to reach a device on both sides of the electrical service, and if it doesn't is there a performance hit on the opposite phase?

Wireless only is definitely slower... i used many door sensors for various things (not all of which are doors) and I can definitely count on extra time.  It seems like (but I haven't definitely proved) that if the wireless signal hits a wired device on the same phase as the PLM performance improves, if it  can only hit a wired device on the opposite phase it adds alot.... example: the program that changes outdoor lighting based on the front door being open or closed is very fast.  The program that controls my closet light is much slower.  I have determined that both phases are available nearby the front door wireless sensor, but only the opposite to the PLM phase is available in the bedroom.

[lilyoyo1]

49 minutes ago, MrBill said:

I don't have a 2448a7 but I've been wondering about performance across the 2 phases of the home electrical system.

Specifically, does the radio of the 2448a7 need to reach a device on both sides of the electrical service, and if it doesn't is there a performance hit on the opposite phase?

Wireless only is definitely slower... i used many door sensors for various things (not all of which are doors) and I can definitely count on extra time.  It seems like (but I haven't definitely proved) that if the wireless signal hits a wired device on the same phase as the PLM performance improves, if it  can only hit a wired device on the opposite phase it adds alot.... example: the program that changes outdoor lighting based on the front door being open or closed is very fast.  The program that controls my closet light is much slower.  I have determined that both phases are available nearby the front door wireless sensor, but only the opposite to the PLM phase is available in the bedroom.

I don't think it matters in regards to phasing as the first device that picks up the signal will repeat it on the power line. Using the USB stick, i expect a slower speed since the signal travels via RF to and from the first device regardless of location. 

I think you see the difference due to your PLM. Using the USB, I think you'll notice the overall change in speed but the difference between phases will be less. 

[JTsao]

With the 2448A7, I observed two obvious cases of communications problems: (1) room lights activated by motion sensors (which are not directly linked to scenes/devices) and (2) room lights controlled by a remote control (Harmony Hub -> Hue emulator).  In case (1), walking into the room would sometimes NOT turn on the lights and in case (2), pressing the remote control button would sometimes result in lights not going to the proper state.

Both cases seem to have improved by either (A) sending the scene command 2X in the ISY program or (B) sending the scene command to turn on, then sending devices commands to turn them on/off per the scene in the program. 

(BTW - there are reasons why I don't have the motion sensors linked directly to the scene devices.)  I realize that it is not ideal to have to send commands 2X, but it seems to make things work better.

So I have a related question regarding the "link type" scene options = Insteon, Command, Default and Ignore.  Currently, all of my scenes have devices set to "Insteon".   Will changing the link type for a device in a scene from "Insteon" to "Command" make commands to turn on Scenes more reliable in this environment where sometimes messages get missed?  Does it result in device commands being sent rather than scene commands?  I read that devices commands get an acknowledgement, but scene commands do not - is this right?

 

Edited February 23, 2022 by JTsao