whywork Posted April 20, 2022 Posted April 20, 2022 I use and enjoy my ISY devices every day. I think that Michel would be a great steward of Insteon/Smarthome assets going forward. Your experience and commitment to Insteon is unparalleled. Can we help? Some random thoughts: Kickstarter as a source of funding. My personal Kickstarter successes have been with existing companies looking to grow – a la Universal Devices and Insteon. I’d put my money behind Michel. Public Relations Campaign. Help educate Insteon/Smarthome sellers/creditors that Universal Devices is a great fit and would potentially offer bigger returns than any other suitor. Universal Devices has experience in the home automation space, already has a loyal user base and the capacity to accommodate new customers and grow the brand. Seems like a no-brainer to me. Who should I contact? This is a turning point for Insteon. I’m pulling for you Michel and wish you luck. What can we do to help? 9
FerventGeek Posted April 20, 2022 Posted April 20, 2022 I'd gladly kick to Kickstarter if only to help Michael cover licensing fees to build a compatible PLM modem. A powerline WiFi Polyglot bridge would work too. I can live without new switches and sensors, but losing the modem would effectively kill my beloved ISY. Thanks Michael! 3
Rob Posted April 20, 2022 Posted April 20, 2022 I'd gladly back a campaign for a UD-designed PLM knowing it would likely be the last one I ever had to purchase. And if they pursue the former Nokia switches and keypads I'd buy those as well. 5
Goose66 Posted April 20, 2022 Posted April 20, 2022 (edited) What I would like to see is UD purchase/license the Insteon chips, device designs, hubs, and website. Get the website back up and running supporting the hubs, and then let me develop a local realtime API for the hub which would then be linked to IoP through a Polyglot node server. The current Insteon code could be removed from IoP in favor of only Zwave native support. Programs/Schedules functionality would be removed from the Insteon website leaving only device configuration. There could then be a Hub for PLM swap program. Whether UD would want to start back manufacturing Insteon devices would be their decision - but that's a big lift! (not that I think UD is not capable - they already have hardware design chops and manufacturing relationships) I don't mind having to use a cloud service to configure my devices - in fact I prefer it because those sites are usually much more advanced and a whole lot easier to deploy updates to. But I don't want my integration platform and programs to have to operate through cloud-services. I want to be able to drop Insteon devices into scenes with Zwave devices, Ring devices, Venstar thermostats, DSC alarm zones, MyQ garage door openers, etc. like I can do today on ISY/IoP, and have the whole thing be as local as possible. The above strategy is one path to get us there. Edited April 20, 2022 by Goose66 3
BCreekDave Posted April 20, 2022 Posted April 20, 2022 Depending on how it goes in negotiations with Smarthome this could be the best thing that could happen to the Insteon community if UDI gains control of the IP. Based on UDI’s track record it could breathe new life into the dying Insteon brand. Here’s hoping. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 3
lilyoyo1 Posted April 20, 2022 Posted April 20, 2022 The point of buying insteon is to make money and in the process help users. It's not out of the kindness of their heart. That's capital/loans they could use on other stuff. That bill will come due at some point. I hope the focus would be on re-making insteon in their image vs trying to carry on insteons legacy. Personally I'd rather see them make the hub subscription based to recoup their costs and give hub owners time to move on from that device, vs trying to maintain separate systems long term. 20 bucks a year and move on. I'd let insteon die. After what happened and how, there's no coming back from it. Sure, users here may buy more devices but the name isnt worth much outside. It'll be hard for others not aware of UDI's reputation to trust it. I would keep the current Nokia line since the work is already done and rebrand it as UDI devices. Ditto with their own PLM. This separates them from insteon with an all new lineup that still works with older stuff. This allows UDI to sell new devices to existing customers looking to upgrade, and capture hub users looking to move on. In addition, they can also sell to other users of other controllers and license the technology to other companies should they choose. The main 2 benefits of this is that it allows for more sales which equals more money and allows their full vision of HA to come to fruition since they aren't beholden to someone else's vision like they currently are with zwave and other technologies. Trying to maintain 2 separate systems just because stretches themselves too thin without any tangible benefits. Sure, goodwill is nice but that doesn't keep the lights on. 3
larryllix Posted April 20, 2022 Posted April 20, 2022 Trouble with all that good stuff is....will the market trust anything with the Insteon name on it anymore? UDI may be jumping on board a sinking ship.Sent from my SM-G781W using Tapatalk 1
apostolakisl Posted April 20, 2022 Posted April 20, 2022 2 minutes ago, larryllix said: Trouble with all that good stuff is....will the market trust anything with the Insteon name on it anymore? UDI may be jumping on board a sinking ship. Sent from my SM-G781W using Tapatalk Can always change the name to UDI or something. Of course if it looks exactly the same. . . but you would still want to make them look the same so current installs can add/replace units.
Frozen001 Posted April 20, 2022 Posted April 20, 2022 Has anyone opened up PLM to see what is in side and if it is possible to reverse engineer it? I have one, but not sure if I want to open it up Have to look at it to see how hard it is to open up... if it is simple to get open with out damage I probably could reverse engineer it, but if it has something programmable inside it it may be a non-starter without some sort of source code or some extensive testing to get it operating as the legacy will be the hard part.
kzboray Posted April 20, 2022 Posted April 20, 2022 UDI years back developed a PLM, but Smarthome reneged on the deal to supply the Insteon chip required. So, design is done. UDI just needs the IP. 2
Frozen001 Posted April 20, 2022 Posted April 20, 2022 (edited) Actually the PLM Schematic is available, so no reverse engineering there:https://cache.insteon.com/pdf/INSTEON_Modem_Developer's_Guide_20071012a.pdf But like you said the IC is the problem child.... But with enough time that can be reverse engineered. Edited April 20, 2022 by Frozen001
lilyoyo1 Posted April 20, 2022 Posted April 20, 2022 24 minutes ago, apostolakisl said: Can always change the name to UDI or something. Of course if it looks exactly the same. . . but you would still want to make them look the same so current installs can add/replace units. Larry is correct in regards to whether or not anyone would trust insteon which is why I'd rather then focus on Nokia (if possible). Easy to rename and the different look separates them from insteon. Since Nokia devices can be either a dimmer or relay, there are less skus to manage and maintain. It's 2 devices. A paddle and keypad. They can use the outlet if they choose but that's not a necessity even though it's much better than zwave offerings. They don't need them to look the same. If they do nothing what choices are current users left with? They'll be in the same boat regardless. At least this way, they have a path forward with something that works natively with their current setup allowing them to upgrade at their leisure
upstatemike Posted April 20, 2022 Posted April 20, 2022 The new new product line could be called "Polisy Connect" or "Polycon" for short. 2
apostolakisl Posted April 20, 2022 Posted April 20, 2022 4 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said: Larry is correct in regards to whether or not anyone would trust insteon which is why I'd rather then focus on Nokia (if possible). Easy to rename and the different look separates them from insteon. Since Nokia devices can be either a dimmer or relay, there are less skus to manage and maintain. It's 2 devices. A paddle and keypad. They can use the outlet if they choose but that's not a necessity even though it's much better than zwave offerings. They don't need them to look the same. If they do nothing what choices are current users left with? They'll be in the same boat regardless. At least this way, they have a path forward with something that works natively with their current setup allowing them to upgrade at their leisure If they look the same you will capture most of the current Insteon users as they expand and/or replace units. If they look different, all bets are off. Most people don't want to have a hodge podge of looks, and if they are willing to have a hodge podge, there is no reason to stick with the Insteon protocol (Nokia) anyway. A descent number of people will gut their system and switch brands, flooding ebay with Insteon devices, suppressing sales of Nokia devices amongst those wanting to keep the Insteon protocol and preferring to keep the look. In short, I think current users will be very loyal customers through the transition if you make the effort to acknowledge them. I'm not sure about this Nokia name either. A royalty will go to Nokia in some way or another. All just to put the word Nokia on the box. Is "Nokia" even going to be written on the switch where someone could see it after install? If it were, it would have to be very subtle and thus what is the point. Is the Nokia name going to pay off? Hard to know. But the devices will cost more for it.
apostolakisl Posted April 20, 2022 Posted April 20, 2022 6 minutes ago, upstatemike said: The new new product line could be called "Polisy Connect" or "Polycon" for short. I think the name polycon is already taken.
upstatemike Posted April 20, 2022 Posted April 20, 2022 (edited) 14 minutes ago, apostolakisl said: I think the name polycon is already taken. How about PolyConn? Or PolicyCon? Edited April 20, 2022 by upstatemike
Athlon Posted April 20, 2022 Posted April 20, 2022 13 minutes ago, upstatemike said: How about PolyConn? Or PolicyCon? Sounds like a convention I would go to once a year... ? 2
upstatemike Posted April 20, 2022 Posted April 20, 2022 5 minutes ago, Athlon said: Sounds like a convention I would go to once a year... ? Me too if it was held in California... maybe in the Winter when I'm looking for an excuse to escape the snow.
lilyoyo1 Posted April 20, 2022 Posted April 20, 2022 (edited) 44 minutes ago, apostolakisl said: If they look the same you will capture most of the current Insteon users as they expand and/or replace units. If they look different, all bets are off. Most people don't want to have a hodge podge of looks, and if they are willing to have a hodge podge, there is no reason to stick with the Insteon protocol (Nokia) anyway. A descent number of people will gut their system and switch brands, flooding ebay with Insteon devices, suppressing sales of Nokia devices amongst those wanting to keep the Insteon protocol and preferring to keep the look. In short, I think current users will be very loyal customers through the transition if you make the effort to acknowledge them. I'm not sure about this Nokia name either. A royalty will go to Nokia in some way or another. All just to put the word Nokia on the box. Is "Nokia" even going to be written on the switch where someone could see it after install? If it were, it would have to be very subtle and thus what is the point. Is the Nokia name going to pay off? Hard to know. But the devices will cost more for it. All bets are off anyway. Just to keep things simple, lets look at this forum. Most users already have full systems. How many devices are they really going to replace? Hub users who stay with the hub are probably set with the devices they are buying as well. Either they've done their whole home already or they're in the beginning stages which makes swapping out much easier. As you've already stated, many will already be gutting their systems which means a lot will go to ebay anyway to save money. Those same people who are gutting their systems will be looking at other stuff as well...why not UDI switches....especially if they decide to use Polisy and know that they will have the devices needed to fill out their system. Reality is, they are not going to capture everyone regardless of what they do. Someone will be unhappy with whatever path they choose. Because of this, new sales is paramount for success vs focusing sales on existing customers who will purchase a smaller number of devices. Existing customers are being acknowledged by them simply being willing to try and buy the company. If thats not enough for existing users to support them then nothing will. Besides that, they could offer a discount to existing users to trade in devices. 30% off is one heck of a deal to get people to be willing to switch. As much as people complain about insteon not doing anything new or different, here would be the perfect opportunity for them to get something new. Im not saying to continue using the Nokia name. Im using it here to differentiate between the old insteon line and new. If anything, they are better off putting as much distance between anything insteon had their hands on. I get why you feel they should stick with the old but thats an emotional thought based on individual lifestyle. Business isnt that. Its cold and UDI must be forward thinking while trying not to distance themselves to much from their main base. They have to think logically about their next steps and what makes most sense long term for their future. Some will be please while others wont. Continuing the same simply isnt logical. Edited April 20, 2022 by lilyoyo1
Brian H Posted April 20, 2022 Posted April 20, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, Frozen001 said: Actually the PLM Schematic is available, so no reverse engineering there:https://cache.insteon.com/pdf/INSTEON_Modem_Developer's_Guide_20071012a.pdf But like you said the IC is the problem child.... But with enough time that can be reverse engineered. The schematic in the Insteon_Modem_Developers_ Guide. Is the old 2412S PLM with a transformer run power supply. Not the recently sold 2413S. With the switching power supply. I have not seen a complete schematic of the 2413S. There is a power supply section of it on this site. The basic commands are the same for both just a completely different hardware wise. I have opened some 2412S and 2413S PLM modules but never tried a complete schematic for the 2413S the 2412S is in the mentioned guide. Edited April 20, 2022 by Brian H
jec6613 Posted April 20, 2022 Posted April 20, 2022 (edited) I mean, JMHO, but Michel has said several times that Insteon was not the future of UDI - but if having a PLM and some other devices available sells more Polisy devices and lets users move gracefully, it's a smart business decision. Time will tell what happens. Edited April 20, 2022 by jec6613
apostolakisl Posted April 20, 2022 Posted April 20, 2022 11 minutes ago, jec6613 said: I mean, JMHO, but Michel has said several times that Insteon was not the future of UDI - but if having a PLM and some other devices available sells more Polisy devices and lets users move gracefully, it's a smart business decision. Time will tell what happens. I suspect that this statement was at least somewhat related to the management of Smartlabs, which of course may now be a resolved issue. 2
apostolakisl Posted April 20, 2022 Posted April 20, 2022 2 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said: I get why you feel they should stick with the old but thats an emotional thought based on individual lifestyle. Business isnt that. Its cold and UDI must be forward thinking while trying not to distance themselves to much from their main base. They have to think logically about their next steps and what makes most sense long term for their future. Some will be please while others wont. Continuing the same simply isnt logical. Generally I agree, but above I do not. This is not emotional in the sense that I have some nostalgia. I have a gigantic system and I am happy with it because it functions perfectly. It is a lot of work, I mean a lot of work, to set it up. So I suppose in the sense that I have an emotional aversion to all the work of setting up a new system, then I guess it is emotional, plus it is expensive. There is a cost to multiple versions of the same product, I understand. I also think your current base of Insteon customers is your best asset, especially the hub people who will see UD as their savior. I started with about a dozen devices, I now have over 100. And I went on to install Insteon at my church with another ISY. I suspect there are lots of people who are at that dozen point, ready to grow. And, I started with a 99i, then a 994i, then a polisy. . . what is next? Gadget people buy more gadgets! It is a psychiatric illness my friend.
larryllix Posted April 20, 2022 Posted April 20, 2022 4 hours ago, Frozen001 said: Actually the PLM Schematic is available, so no reverse engineering there:https://cache.insteon.com/pdf/INSTEON_Modem_Developer's_Guide_20071012a.pdf But like you said the IC is the problem child.... But with enough time that can be reverse engineered. It wouldn't matter. It would be an Intellectual Property violation. Until the patents are allowed to ex$pire, permission is needed. 1
larryllix Posted April 20, 2022 Posted April 20, 2022 48 minutes ago, jec6613 said: I mean, JMHO, but Michel has said several times that Insteon was not the future of UDI - but if having a PLM and some other devices available sells more Polisy devices and lets users move gracefully, it's a smart business decision. Time will tell what happens. Owning the IP, UDI could license out the technology so they do not become the next 'sole provider', that SmartHomes was so mass rejected for. Other forums would constantly poo-poo the Insteon name due to being a "lone provider". The funny part was Zwave was in the same boat being the only IC manufacturer, but hid it from the market until they let it out into the wild a few years ago.
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