Insteon acquired and servers coming back up

[upstatemike]

Hopefully the PLM Pro will be an Insteon device similiar to what the XTB-II was for X-10

http://jvde.us/xtb/xtb-iir.pdf

 

[jec6613]

14 hours ago, Michel Kohanim said:

Hi guys,

Unfortunately no go. We were discussing converting Nokia Hubs to PLMs. Unfortunately it costs us $40 per unit to convert and insteon wants another $35.00 per unit. Considering the huge initial investment (about $75K), defect rate, support, and development to support ASCII communications, we'll probably have to charge at least $125 a unit to just break even on 1000 units. 

Unfortunately, insteon does not want to convert and sell on their own. So, this chapter has also reached a dead end.

The only remaining hope is Hub Pro which, as per Ken, they are working on.

With kind regards,

Michel

 

 

I mean, $200 to not have an entire Insteon network end up unable to talk to a controller seems perfectly reasonable, but that's why I'm not a business owner.

[lilyoyo1]

1 hour ago, jec6613 said:

I mean, $200 to not have an entire Insteon network end up unable to talk to a controller seems perfectly reasonable, but that's why I'm not a business owner.

I agree. But thats why UDI has moved away from insteon. They want more control over the system and the devices that connects with it. Hopefully both will circle back around and insteon will license them to make their own PLM. 

If not- it comes down to them doing the same things all over again and I'd stay away. 

[smokegrub]

2 hours ago, jec6613 said:

I mean, $200 to not have an entire Insteon network end up unable to talk to a controller seems perfectly reasonable, but that's why I'm not a business owner.

I agree. Take a look at what PLMs are selling for on EBAY. Not all of us are in search of the "latest and greatest". I have two homes with all Insteon devices, two ISYs and Alexa. All work extremely well and meet my needs. Going forward I need PLMs when and if one breaks, and I need the rare replacement Insteon device (I have quite a few backups). I see no reason to consider abandoning my setup. If someone at Insteon is looking, I am ready to purchase seven door locks if reliable Insteon products are developed.

[Brian H]

4 hours ago, upstatemike said:

Hopefully the PLM Pro will be an Insteon device similiar to what the XTB-II was for X-10

http://jvde.us/xtb/xtb-iir.pdf

 

If it is the one in the FCC Database.

https://apps.fcc.gov/oetcf/eas/reports/GenericSearch.cfm

SBP22342

Expanded operation to 100-240VAC and 50/60Hz.
Increased Insteon links storage from ~1000 to ~4,000 links with faster read/writes
Uses the same communication protocol and structure to match earlier models
Updated all processors with increased memory space and speed
Beefed up electronics to reduce failures due to AC-mains electrical spikes,
noise and heat from poorly ventilated install locations
New and smaller enclosure that matches other Insteon plug-in products
Increased power line transmitting signaling levels and robustness
New RF circuit with higher sensitivity components and calibrated antenna circuit
Changed USB translator circuit from FDTI to Microchip with built-in Windows
support and hassle-free use with Mac OSs . External photo shows a separate AC Plug assembly. So in the future it could easily be changed to another countries power standards and allowed RF frequency.

Edited August 22, 2022 by Brian H
Add FCC Link and ID.

[apostolakisl]

9 minutes ago, Brian H said:

If it is the one in the FCC Database.

Expanded operation to 100-240VAC and 50/60Hz.
Increased Insteon links storage from ~1000 to ~4,000 links with faster read/writes
Uses the same communication protocol and structure to match earlier models
Updated all processors with increased memory space and speed
Beefed up electronics to reduce failures due to AC-mains electrical spikes,
noise and heat from poorly ventilated install locations
New and smaller enclosure that matches other Insteon plug-in products
Increased power line transmitting signaling levels and robustness
New RF circuit with higher sensitivity components and calibrated antenna circuit
Changed USB translator circuit from FDTI to Microchip with built-in Windows
support and hassle-free use with Mac OSs . External photo shows a separate AC Plug assembly. So in the future it could easily be changed to another countries power standards and allowed RF frequency.

If the device herein described is what is actually produced, I see no reason for anything else.  Especially if the price is reasonable.  

[giomania]

15 minutes ago, Brian H said:

If it is the one in the FCC Database.

Expanded operation to 100-240VAC and 50/60Hz.
Increased Insteon links storage from ~1000 to ~4,000 links with faster read/writes
Uses the same communication protocol and structure to match earlier models
Updated all processors with increased memory space and speed
Beefed up electronics to reduce failures due to AC-mains electrical spikes,
noise and heat from poorly ventilated install locations
New and smaller enclosure that matches other Insteon plug-in products
Increased power line transmitting signaling levels and robustness
New RF circuit with higher sensitivity components and calibrated antenna circuit
Changed USB translator circuit from FDTI to Microchip with built-in Windows
support and hassle-free use with Mac OSs . External photo shows a separate AC Plug assembly. So in the future it could easily be changed to another countries power standards and allowed RF frequency.

Her is the direct link:

https://fcc.report/FCC-ID/SBP22342/

I am personally not happy about making the enclosure smaller, and the same form factor as the LampLincs, as they are fragile, but I guess it is not handled frequently where it could break.

Mark

[Brian H]

Some of the 2635-222 On/Off adapters where worse. The backs on some cracked and fell apart very easily. I have some cracked and not use able still new in the shipping box.

Unlike the Lamplinc they also used flat head screws and the tapered tops just where asking to let me crack the case.

[upstatemike]

4 hours ago, Brian H said:

If it is the one in the FCC Database.

https://apps.fcc.gov/oetcf/eas/reports/GenericSearch.cfm

SBP22342

Expanded operation to 100-240VAC and 50/60Hz.
Increased Insteon links storage from ~1000 to ~4,000 links with faster read/writes
Uses the same communication protocol and structure to match earlier models
Updated all processors with increased memory space and speed
Beefed up electronics to reduce failures due to AC-mains electrical spikes,
noise and heat from poorly ventilated install locations
New and smaller enclosure that matches other Insteon plug-in products
Increased power line transmitting signaling levels and robustness
New RF circuit with higher sensitivity components and calibrated antenna circuit
Changed USB translator circuit from FDTI to Microchip with built-in Windows
support and hassle-free use with Mac OSs . External photo shows a separate AC Plug assembly. So in the future it could easily be changed to another countries power standards and allowed RF frequency.

That works for me!

[Michel Kohanim]

Hello everyone,

Thank you for the feedback. Nokia Hubs are not the same as PLM Pros.

Until I see actual availability of PLMs, my official position is that PLM customers don't have high priority for insteon. If they did,  insteon would have either converted the Nokia Hubs themselves or made it affordable rather than asking us to buy them for such a ridiculous price, making us responsible for the defects and returns. Or they have other plans for the Nokia Hubs. Regardless, this is their prerogative and their business. Perhaps they will surprise us. Till then, off to ZMatter and eisy.

With kind regards,

Michel

[ase]

I am just glad I have enough backup plms to last me for several decades. We shall see where everything goes. I find myself actually optimistic about matter. Insteon seems to be focusing on hub for now (which makes business sense). Insteon may enter the public domain in the future so hub makes sense for Insteon. Plenty of manufacturers are still committed to z-wave, and matter seems to finally be on track. UDI has eisy which appears to be built on the excellent work at Mele(they built excellent small form systems).

I find myself feeling optimistic about the direction and diversity of the industry for the first time in a long time.

[lilyoyo1]

11 hours ago, Michel Kohanim said:

Hello everyone,

Thank you for the feedback. Nokia Hubs are not the same as PLM Pros.

Until I see actual availability of PLMs, my official position is that PLM customers don't have high priority for insteon. If they did,  insteon would have either converted the Nokia Hubs themselves or made it affordable rather than asking us to buy them for such a ridiculous price, making us responsible for the defects and returns. Or they have other plans for the Nokia Hubs. Regardless, this is their prerogative and their business. Perhaps they will surprise us. Till then, off to ZMatter and eisy.

With kind regards,

Michel

I hope im wrong but Im seeing the same paths taken as before. The fact that they were willing to sell the Nokia hubs to you lets me know that the Nokia line came with the sale. Them pushing the same old line vs moving forward with something new seems like they're still stuck on the past vs trying to move forward to the future. 

Its telling that they wanted to sell you the hubs vs the chips themselves to make your own. That lets me know, they have no interest in that line and does not want to build a partnership with anyone to expand insteon's availability. They simply saw a quick way to get rid of the product while making some of their money back. 

As much as a supporter as I was of insteon, I just dont see them being a viable player long term in this market. Especially with them following in the same footsteps from the past 2 ownerships. 

[Michel Kohanim]

@lilyoyo1, with the disclaimer that, when it comes to SmartHome (or any variations thereof), I am extra extra cautious, I think the issue is just priorities and nothing more. As @ase suggested, their priority is the hub + massive number of Nokia inventory that they have to get rid of. Nokia inventory does not work with the existing hubs. When/if they start selling the Nokia inventory, customers will ask UD to support those products, without them having to lift a finger or use any resources (ok, perhaps they will send us a couple of units to test with). 

This said, the only way I would agree to support their Nokia devices is guarantees of API access plus their own dedicated Tech Support. We have been doing free INSTEON tech support for eternity and I have zero interest in doing more, especially for things that have never been tested in production. 

Again, perhaps they will surprise us.

With kind regards,
Michel

[Brian H]

1 hour ago, Michel Kohanim said:

@lilyoyo1, with the disclaimer that, when it comes to SmartHome (or any variations thereof), I am extra extra cautious, I think the issue is just priorities and nothing more. As @ase suggested, their priority is the hub + massive number of Nokia inventory that they have to get rid of. Nokia inventory does not work with the existing hubs. When/if they start selling the Nokia inventory, customers will ask UD to support those products, without them having to lift a finger or use any resources (ok, perhaps they will send us a couple of units to test with). 

This said, the only way I would agree to support their Nokia devices is guarantees of API access plus their own dedicated Tech Support. We have been doing free INSTEON tech support for eternity and I have zero interest in doing more, especially for things that have never been tested in production. 

Again, perhaps they will surprise us.

With kind regards,
Michel

I totally agree. I have seen UDI burned a few times myself. Also how they just dropped with out warning. The Developers Group. We paid money for and an NDA.  All of a sudden was gone and the documentation was available for a time to everybody.

I thanked you before but I do appreciate the reveres engineering to get the Siren and Alert Modules working.

[jec6613]

23 hours ago, Michel Kohanim said:

@lilyoyo1, with the disclaimer that, when it comes to SmartHome (or any variations thereof), I am extra extra cautious, I think the issue is just priorities and nothing more. As @ase suggested, their priority is the hub + massive number of Nokia inventory that they have to get rid of. Nokia inventory does not work with the existing hubs. When/if they start selling the Nokia inventory, customers will ask UD to support those products, without them having to lift a finger or use any resources (ok, perhaps they will send us a couple of units to test with). 

This said, the only way I would agree to support their Nokia devices is guarantees of API access plus their own dedicated Tech Support. We have been doing free INSTEON tech support for eternity and I have zero interest in doing more, especially for things that have never been tested in production. 

Again, perhaps they will surprise us.

With kind regards,
Michel

Given that your customers likely have more devices on average, they may see quite a bit of benefit to helping you because we can and will purchase many of the Nokia devices if ISY/Polisy/Eisy support them.

I'm hopeful but definitely not counting on it. 

[lilyoyo1]

1 hour ago, jec6613 said:

Given that your customers likely have more devices on average, they may see quite a bit of benefit to helping you because we can and will purchase many of the Nokia devices if ISY/Polisy/Eisy support them.

I'm hopeful but definitely not counting on it. 

I hope so too. The quality of them are much much better than current insteon devices.

[Techman]

INSTEON UPDATE 8/24/2022 An update from Ken on where we are at with customer support Hello, I thought it was important to reach out to you and let you know we are aware the community is frustrated with our email response times and you have every right to be. We sincerely feel this is the #1 issue we are dealing with right now at Insteon Technologies.     I know I have communicated that we are small team and are doing everything we can to get caught up on our support inquiries. Everyone here is pitching in where they can, but we are not getting the job done.     We are actively recruiting for customer support specialists. As you can expect, once we get them on board, there will be a learning curve as they get up to speed. So, this is not an immediate fix.   For those of you worried that your Hub will be turned off because of an issue with your subscription, please rest assured we will not be turning your Hub off until we have resolved the individual issues with subscriptions. If you receive an email from the subscription team, please reply.   I personally apologize to everyone who has reached out (many of you, multiple times) and not gotten a timely response. It is completely unacceptable, and it goes against the very grain of us wanting to be a “customer first” company.   So, once again, I ask for your patience and understanding. Slowly, but surely, we will get there.   Ken CEO Insteon Technologies

[Michel Kohanim]

2 hours ago, jec6613 said:

Given that your customers likely have more devices on average, they may see quite a bit of benefit to helping you because we can and will purchase many of the Nokia devices if ISY/Polisy/Eisy support them.

Thank you; I appreciate it very much! This said, my math already included my hopeful (wishful) contribution from our existing customers. As you can see from Ken's latest email, tech support is still not there.

With kind regards,
Michel 

[upstatemike]

So there are instuctions for fixing bad PLMs but is there a DIY way to upgrade them? Besides caps I am thinking overclocking, added RAM, tweak the power supply to broadcast a stronger signal, etc.

[Brian H]

I got the same update today from Ken. So I must have been added to their mailing lists recently.

[Brian H]

57 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

So there are instuctions for fixing bad PLMs but is there a DIY way to upgrade them? Besides caps I am thinking overclocking, added RAM, tweak the power supply to broadcast a stronger signal, etc.

I have not seen anything like that myself.

I do know the link database is on the daughter board. I actually have an early 2412S where they used the  daughter board from a 2414S PLC. It has the giant 24LC256 EEPROM memory chip on it since the PLC could have programs download into it and run disconnected from the computer. Though it only used the original 417 link size  and not the full space in the chip. It also has a RTC clock chip with backup battery also not used. I believe it was a firmware limitation. The 2413S used a 24FC64 that has a faster access time.

If you wanted to over clock it you would probably have to mess with the timing in the controller chip as their is only one clock chip on it for Insteon and a second controller for Insteon RF with its own timing chip.

Edited August 24, 2022 by Brian H

[apostolakisl]

40 minutes ago, Brian H said:

I have not seen anything like that myself.

I do know the link database is on the daughter board. I actually have an early 2412S where they used the  daughter board from a 2414S PLC. It has the giant 24LC256 EEPROM memory chip on it since the PLC could have programs download into it and run disconnected from the computer. Though it only used the original 417 link size  and not the full space in the chip. It also has a RTC clock chip with backup battery also not used. I believe it was a firmware limitation. The 2413S used a 24FC64 that has a faster access time.

If you wanted to over clock it you would probably have to mess with the timing in the controller chip as their is only one clock chip on it for Insteon and a second controller for Insteon RF with its own timing chip.

UD has already designed a whole new PLM.  I wonder if they would sell that minus the Insteon chip and let people swap out a chip of their own.

[Michel Kohanim]

6 hours ago, apostolakisl said:

UD has already designed a whole new PLM.  I wonder if they would sell that minus the Insteon chip and let people swap out a chip of their own.

Most of the components for 2413S are either obsolete or have 2 years lead time. Our design is based on 2413S. That's why we focused on PLM Pro and the Nokia Hubs. Alas, we are where we are = nowhere.

With kind regards,

Michel 

[Brian H]

11 hours ago, apostolakisl said:

UD has already designed a whole new PLM.  I wonder if they would sell that minus the Insteon chip and let people swap out a chip of their own.

They are surface mounted and I would expect most users can't do surface mounted parts safely with out a good chance of a damaged part or maybe a finger.

There is a very good chance the 2413 and UDI designed PLM. Do not use the same basic part for their controller. So a swap would probably not work even if you could safely do a surface mounted part correctly.

I also would not trust Smartlabs 2413 designs to have too much of a safety margin on their designs. So upgrades maybe questionable. Especially with the power supply section's history of poorly chosen capacitors.

I checked my archives. The UDI PLM was about 8 years ago. When Smartlabs pulled the plug and stuck UDI with unusable prototypes. I can understand why in 8 years some parts go obsolete or 2 year lead times..

Since the 2413 and UDI version PLM. Have either long lead times for the part or the parts  are obsolete. I can see the trying to go with the PLM Pro and Nokia HUBs as the best way to try and go. Although right now that looks like a muddy situation.

Edited August 25, 2022 by Brian H
Add stuff

[Brian H]

4 hours ago, Michel Kohanim said:

Most of the components for 2413S are either obsolete or have 2 years lead time. Our design is based on 2413S. That's why we focused on PLM Pro and the Nokia Hubs. Alas, we are where we are = nowhere.

With kind regards,

Michel 

Not very encouraging but looks the way it does.

Thank you for your continued support as far as you can go.