Next Gen Teaser

[Samedarkclouds]

1 hour ago, Michel Kohanim said:

@Samedarkclouds,

Wow ... quite a beautiful vent. I am honored and thank you so very much!

This new toy is the culmination of our disappointment with INSTEON and internal reflection. When I go to Costco (or Amazon) and can buy beautiful and gorgeous switches for less than $20 (WiFi), and when I see all the things I can do with Alexa/Google Home/HomeKit, then I wonder whether or not there's any room for UD. For instance, if Matter is as it's touted to be, and if Alexa/Google Home/HomeKit can integrate with it, and if you can do routines/triggers/schedules, why would you need eisy, HA, etc.? I would be putting my head in the sand if I do not question the value of something like eisy. Especially when it's so complex with an archaic Java interface.

The way I see it:

1. I do not think INSTEON is ever going to come back
2. I do not think Z-Wave is going to be there in the long run either. The reason: SiLabs owns Z-Wave. SiLabs is also one of the major sponsors for Matter. So, either Z-Wave is going to be Matterialized or it will slowly fade 
3. Simple use cases will be taken care of by inexpensive devices and simple apps (including Alexa/GH/HK)
4. More complicated use cases (such as energy) are either handled home energy management/automation systems (mostly because cloud dependence is not desired for energy)
5. Must be easy to use (eisy), commission, and configure (Admin Console/Java are bad. Yaml is great but not for the average user)
 

So, based on the aforementioned, we only have two opportunities:

1. Existing customers with Z-Wave, INSTEON/X10 who want to futureproof and/or migrate to something more modern
2. Complicated use cases such as energy management (for which we are literally masters)

And, based on the above, I decided to develop MatterZ and the very powerful eisy + @Javi is working making things easier with UD Mobile + templates for simple programs + @bpwwerhas pg3 in tip top shape, and @bmercier has developed services that can be used for Ring, @Chris is still in his dungeon solidifying Z-Wave and grappling with its monsters and critters. 

So, yes, I hope I will be your savior. Because, otherwise, UD will have to abandon the automation realm and concentrate on the utility's services.

With kind regards,
Michel

 

Oh dear lord don't abandon anything. The extra structure and limitation with ISY has proved to be its strength in my case, as everything out there is such a thicket of proprietary nonsense mixed with a crowded room full of programming languages that are all over my head. Your system gets it down to logic, which is what a real "smart" system should be based on. The bells and whistles are great and all, but not for long term, standard household use. People can make cute programs they use once a year and forget exist all they want... that's not for me... ISY has also been my first experience with anything that even resembled programing, and because of it I have learned so much, and expanded down rabbit holes that have really improved my life. I am no expert at anything, but I have muddled straight through areas I wouldn't have braved contact with in the past. That's thanks to ISY.

At the same time, the limitation are, well, limiting. I want your logic to work on everything in the house. I want to be able to keep my hardware updated and and configured too... with as few "unpair->re-pair->update&configure in 20 different buckets->unpair->re-pair->fix all the broken links and programs" as I possibly can.

That's all I mean. I want to use z-wave on an ISY... or whatever on an ISY. The ISY is the thing I want to be at the base of the system. But with ISY there's stuff I can't do (or do easily) that inherent with Z-wave. Anyway, you get the point and I am hopeful, confident in fact, at your ability to make it all it can be.

Thanks for taking the time.

[Dub]

2 hours ago, Michel Kohanim said:

I do not think INSTEON is ever going to come back

@Michel Kohanim count me in on the new box.  Love my Polisy should have made the jump years ago.  The big reason I did when my hub light went red was I knew you and the team had a lot of maturity in the technology and with the Insteon system.  I have a lot of Insteon devices and some Z-Wave and a few Hue bulbs.  I love how I can tie all these things together now and the options with Node Servers.  Also I appreciate you stepping back and taking a look from an unbiased position of where does this hardware fit with all the other options out there. The strategic vision and questioning your own bias of your own equipment is exactly the type of company I’m glad I spent money with and plan to continue.

so the reason I quoted you on Insteon…I have seen several of your statements and you have been supportive of Ken and team.  It’s clear you have some connections at Insteon, but this is first statement I have seen from you in the last couple of months since the Insteon announcement was made that seemed like a more negative outlook.  I was curious why you don’t think it will come back at this point??

I’m optimistic and hoping for the best but also a realist and have wondered myself if Insteon will make it.

I’m really tied to the 8 button keypad links and Insteon Scenes that trigger devices directly.  If I thought there were some good options for these 2 things I would probably be jumping ship on Insteon.

Lastly I believe you see promise in the technology because of your interest in purchasing the company and was really hoping your offer would have been accepted but, it was a good consolation prize for me to hear your supportive comments of Ken. I was glad it was someone it sounded like you thought would work with UDI vs some company just paying for a name.
 

Thank you again for all you and your team do.

[upstatemike]

2 hours ago, Michel Kohanim said:

@Samedarkclouds,

The way I see it:

1. I do not think INSTEON is ever going to come back
2. I do not think Z-Wave is going to be there in the long run either. The reason: SiLabs owns Z-Wave. SiLabs is also one of the major sponsors for Matter. So, either Z-Wave is going to be Matterialized or it will slowly fade 
3. Simple use cases will be taken care of by inexpensive devices and simple apps (including Alexa/GH/HK)
4. More complicated use cases (such as energy) are either handled home energy management/automation systems (mostly because cloud dependence is not desired for energy)
5. Must be easy to use (eisy), commission, and configure (Admin Console/Java are bad. Yaml is great but not for the average user)...

With kind regards,
Michel

 

The way I see it:

1. Insteon may come back in a form that looks similiar to X-10.com but there has been no suggestion that they are going to do anything to end "Insteon isolation" and embrace integration with other platforms in any meaningful way. (If there has been some announcement to the contrary I would love a link)

2. Z-Wave has some problems that are fundemental to the protocol and the way that standards are enforced (or not) that will contibute to its decline. I have seen nothing to indicate that they are working to resolve long-standing problems like the popcorn effect or the lack of general purpose keypads (not just scene controllers) or or the extreme limitations of direct associations as currently implemented. (Again if there is some news that these things are about to get fixed I would love a link)

3. I disagree that simple use cases can be handled by basic "trigger + Condition" type logic as found in Alexa routines and similiar. Even entry level users soon find they have situations that requires multiple triggers (OR statements) and will soon grow frustrated creating a new program for each possible trigger when an OR statement would be so much simpler. This fact alone will prevent devices like eisy from becoming obsolete. (If there is evidence that Amazon or Yolink, etc. are on the verge of adding multiple trigger logic to their platforms I would love to see a link.) Anyone who has used IFTTT as a way to supply this functionality will understand why cloud based logic engines linked to other cloud based logic engines do not produce a reliable solution.

4. Matter and Zigbee are a complete crap shoot right now; mostly becaue the problems they are trying to solve are not the ones consumers are most anxious to get fixed. I don't care if I have to use six different phone apps to configure my different brands of HA gear since enrollment and configuration is a one time activity anyway. I do care if the devices can't turn on or dim in unison or if basic functionality stops during an Internet outage or if my controller fails. If somebody has heard how Matter is going to fix the popcorn effect or provide direct Zigbee linking between switches or keypad buttons and smart bulbs I would love to see a link.

[lilyoyo1]

3 minutes ago, WHaas said:

@Michel Kohanim count me in on the new box.  Love my Polisy should have made the jump years ago.  The big reason I did when my hub light went red was I knew you and the team had a lot of maturity in the technology and with the Insteon system.  I have a lot of Insteon devices and some Z-Wave and a few Hue bulbs.  I love how I can tie all these things together now and the options with Node Servers.  Also I appreciate you stepping back and taking a look from an unbiased position of where does this hardware fit with all the other options out there. The strategic vision and questioning your own bias of your own equipment is exactly the type of company I’m glad I spent money with and plan to continue.

so the reason I quoted you on Insteon…I have seen several of your statements and you have been supportive of Ken and team.  It’s clear you have some connections at Insteon, but this is first statement I have seen from you in the last couple of months since the Insteon announcement was made that seemed like a more negative outlook.  I was curious why you don’t think it will come back at this point??

I’m optimistic and hoping for the best but also a realist and have wondered myself if Insteon will make it.

I’m really tied to the 8 button keypad links and Insteon Scenes that trigger devices directly.  If I thought there were some good options for these 2 things I would probably be jumping ship on Insteon.

Lastly I believe you see promise in the technology because of your interest in purchasing the company and was really hoping your offer would have been accepted but, it was a good consolation prize for me to hear your supportive comments of Ken. I was glad it was someone it sounded like you thought would work with UDI vs some company just paying for a name.
 

Thank you again for all you and your team do.

I think it has to do more with the state of automation than the new owners desires. People have moved on from insteon. 

I know I've been an insteon supporter on here even after i stopped installing insteon devices. While i hope they succeed, I can't get behind the same rehashed stuff. The old stuff want selling then, it won't sell now

[Dub]

2 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

If somebody has heard how Matter is going to fix the popcorn effect or provide direct Zigbee linking between switches or keypad buttons and smart bulbs I would love to see a link.

I don’t have a link but do have a few Philips Hue bulbs…not many.  I have 4 recessed bulbs in my living room.  All 4 bulbs are grouped in a room and there is no popcorn effect with these 4 bulbs together.  With it being Zigbee that tells me there is the capability there.  I also replaced my over cabinet lights with Hue Strips(were fluorescent tubes). There is no popcorn effect with these either.  I’m using my Polisy, the Hue NS, and network resources to control these with Insteon keypad lincs.

[Teken]

42 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

I think it has to do more with the state of automation than the new owners desires. People have moved on from insteon. 

I know I've been an insteon supporter on here even after i stopped installing insteon devices. While i hope they succeed, I can't get behind the same rehashed stuff. The old stuff want selling then, it won't sell now

Such a Debbie Downer . . . ? ? ?

[lilyoyo1]

6 minutes ago, Teken said:

Such a Debbie Downer . . . ? ? ??

??. Not this time. Insteon's look (the current iteration) has grown long in the tooth. When I look at other stuff on the market, it pales compared to what i want to achieve.... especially once I got the Nokia stuff. That's what really killed it. Once i saw the difference I couldn't stay with it. 

[Athlon]

?

Edited July 29, 2022 by Athlon

[Michel Kohanim]

2 hours ago, Samedarkclouds said:

At the same time, the limitation are, well, limiting. I want your logic to work on everything in the house. I want to be able to keep my hardware updated and and configured too... with as few "unpair->re-pair->update&configure in 20 different buckets->unpair->re-pair->fix all the broken links and programs" as I possibly can.

I agree and precisely where we are going.

1 hour ago, upstatemike said:

I disagree that simple use cases can be handled by basic "trigger + Condition" type logic as found in Alexa routines and similiar.

True, but I am not sure I can count on those as a concrete customer base/opportunity.

1 hour ago, WHaas said:

but this is first statement I have seen from you in the last couple of months since the Insteon announcement was made that seemed like a more negative outlook

Excellent observation and thank you SO much for your vote of confidence. It's mostly based on my reflections. I very much hope I am wrong because I still have a soft spot for INSTEON + I like Ken and wish him all the best.

With kind regards,
Michel

[Dub]

18 minutes ago, Michel Kohanim said:

It's mostly based on my reflections. I very much hope I am wrong because I still have a soft spot for INSTEON + I like Ken and wish him all the best.

Thank you for giving more details.  I do agree as I see more of the installer base has moved away.  Customers like me that probably won’t move for a while if ever don’t offer much for repeat buying of hardware from Insteon without innovation.  While I’m a hub subscriber (without a hub plugged in) I’m not a lot of revenue there, and only bought a subscription to support that team after seeing your postive comments about Ken with the hopes of more hardware.   Thank you for your transparency with us and continuing to innovate!!

 

[Samedarkclouds]

55 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

??. Not this time. Insteon's look (the current iteration) has grown long in the tooth. When I look at other stuff on the market, it pales compared to what i want to achieve.... especially once I got the Nokia stuff. That's what really killed it. Once i saw the difference I couldn't stay with it. 

Have you seen this? Looks like the nokia thing is toast. Dammit.

https://nokiamob.net/2022/04/27/nokias-statement-of-the-smartlabs-financial-troubles/

[Techman]

The Nokia branded products were a license agreement between Smartlabs and Nokia for Smartlabs to use the Nokia name. The product was owned by Smartlabs. I see no reason why the new owner can't sell the "Nokia" branded products under the Insteon name assuming that it's financially and logistically feasible.

 

[lilyoyo1]

1 hour ago, Samedarkclouds said:

Have you seen this? Looks like the nokia thing is toast. Dammit.

https://nokiamob.net/2022/04/27/nokias-statement-of-the-smartlabs-financial-troubles/

I don't really care about that. For my next home (should be finished in Feb), I've already decided on Ra3. I'm hoping the Isy/ polisy/eisy, supports it (long term). Business wise, it'll be great for me with homes that do not want to spend ra3/C4 money. Outside of that, I have no interest in insteon regardless. I just love insteon and UDI and want to use/keep both in my life in some capacity. UDI will be there but insteon may or may not be. Insteon part- I'm not concerned about. I refuse to continue using the same old thing.

[upstatemike]

3 hours ago, WHaas said:

I don’t have a link but do have a few Philips Hue bulbs…not many.  I have 4 recessed bulbs in my living room.  All 4 bulbs are grouped in a room and there is no popcorn effect with these 4 bulbs together.  With it being Zigbee that tells me there is the capability there.  I also replaced my over cabinet lights with Hue Strips(were fluorescent tubes). There is no popcorn effect with these either.  I’m using my Polisy, the Hue NS, and network resources to control these with Insteon keypad lincs.

Yes Hue works well within its own platform but will Matter ensure Hue bulbs linked to Wi-Fi Dimmers and other non-hue Zigbee bulbs will all operate in perfect sync with no popcorn effect? If not then I relly don't see why I need it.

[Dub]

3 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

Yes Hue works well within its own platform but will Matter ensure Hue bulbs linked to Wi-Fi Dimmers and other non-hue Zigbee bulbs will all operate in perfect sync with no popcorn effect?

That for me is a wait and see…maybe someone else here knows more definitely….but If it has popcorn effect I’m out for most of my use cases. I simply don’t like it. Some places I can tolerate it like shutting off my laundry room lights after x minutes unoccupied…

[upstatemike]

I am picturing the following as interesting technologies to use with eisy:

Hue

Caseta

Yolink (LoRa)

Broadlink Fastcon

Possibly Inovelli Blue Line Zigbee (If they approach some C4 like features)

RA3 and C4 if accessible

 

I am picturing the following automtion technologies fading out of my life:

Insteon

Z-Wave

Wi-Fi

Most Zigbee that is not Hue, Inovelli, or C4

Matter, Thread, Sidewalk, etc.

 

[upstatemike]

11 minutes ago, WHaas said:

That for me is a wait and see…maybe someone else here knows more definitely….but If it has popcorn effect I’m out for most of my use cases. I simply don’t like it. Some places I can tolerate it like shutting off my laundry room lights after x minutes unoccupied…

My thinking is that if Matter could eliminate the popcorn effect across platforms then they would be shouting it from the rooftops. It is never mentioned in any Matter feature discussion so it is a safe bet that Matter can't do anything to deal with it.

[Dub]

Just now, upstatemike said:

My thinking is that if Matter could eliminate the popcorn effect across platforms then they would be shouting it from the rooftops. It is never mentioned in any Matter feature discussion so it is a safe bet that Matter can't do anything to deal with it.

That’s a heckuva good point!!  Agreed.  I will be glad to have the capability in the eisy though.

[upstatemike]

9 minutes ago, WHaas said:

That’s a heckuva good point!!  Agreed.  I will be glad to have the capability in the eisy though.

I assume you mean the capability to support Matter... not the cabability to fix popcorn effect across platforms. That is something only a unifying protocol can do. 

[Dub]

9 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

I assume you mean the capability to support Matter... not the cabability to fix popcorn effect across platforms. That is something only a unifying protocol can do. 

Yes. That is what I mean.  I understand what you are saying but I’m not convinced a unifying protocol would fix it as I’m not sure the protocol would be enforced.  In theory and on paper a unifying protocol would fix many issues, but that is a benefit of a closed architecture.  My thought is if these protocols are loosely followed like other technology options that struggle with interoperability then your mileage may vary.  Some brands may have  no popcorn effect like with a pure Hue system but start mixing technology brands and it’s “good luck”but that’s just my speculation.  I’m not gonna let my pessimistic attitude towards how Matter is implemented(still tbd) make me turn a blind eye to having the capability of Matter in a UDI eisy.

[lilyoyo1]

3 hours ago, upstatemike said:

I am picturing the following as interesting technologies to use with eisy:

Hue

Caseta

Yolink (LoRa)

Broadlink Fastcon

Possibly Inovelli Blue Line Zigbee (If they approach some C4 like features)

RA3 and C4 if accessible

 

I am picturing the following automtion technologies fading out of my life:

Insteon

Z-Wave

Wi-Fi

Most Zigbee that is not Hue, Inovelli, or C4

Matter, Thread, Sidewalk, etc.

 

Anything that currently requires a controller will probably not change. Especially installer provided systems. C4 may support matter but it'll have to be your installer that does it not the end user

[Samedarkclouds]

22 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said:

I don't really care about that. For my next home (should be finished in Feb), I've already decided on Ra3. I'm hoping the Isy/ polisy/eisy, supports it (long term). Business wise, it'll be great for me with homes that do not want to spend ra3/C4 money. Outside of that, I have no interest in insteon regardless. I just love insteon and UDI and want to use/keep both in my life in some capacity. UDI will be there but insteon may or may not be. Insteon part- I'm not concerned about. I refuse to continue using the same old thing.

Yeah, I think I am arriving at very much this same place. I love my insteon stuff, but as I want to keep adding/evolving, clearly its not advancing along, or at least it can't be trusted to. I guess I am not enamored with Insteon as much as the duel-mesh attributes in general. The instantaneous response times are hard to let go of. I would marry any company that got that done, and am starting to just accept the loss as my system expands. 

I think that's where my focus on parameters and associations gets its momentum. I want to be able to tweak things till I don't feel the loss. 
 

If RA3 is fully supported by UD, I imagine I will need to seriously dive into that rabbit hole. Haven't played with them at all yet.

Edited July 30, 2022 by Samedarkclouds

[RPerrault]

23 hours ago, Michel Kohanim said:

@Samedarkclouds,

Wow ... quite a beautiful vent. I am honored and thank you so very much!

This new toy is the culmination of our disappointment with INSTEON and internal reflection. When I go to Costco (or Amazon) and can buy beautiful and gorgeous switches for less than $20 (WiFi), and when I see all the things I can do with Alexa/Google Home/HomeKit, then I wonder whether or not there's any room for UD. For instance, if Matter is as it's touted to be, and if Alexa/Google Home/HomeKit can integrate with it, and if you can do routines/triggers/schedules, why would you need eisy, HA, etc.? I would be putting my head in the sand if I do not question the value of something like eisy. Especially when it's so complex with an archaic Java interface.

The way I see it:

1. I do not think INSTEON is ever going to come back
2. I do not think Z-Wave is going to be there in the long run either. The reason: SiLabs owns Z-Wave. SiLabs is also one of the major sponsors for Matter. So, either Z-Wave is going to be Matterialized or it will slowly fade 
3. Simple use cases will be taken care of by inexpensive devices and simple apps (including Alexa/GH/HK)
4. More complicated use cases (such as energy) are either handled home energy management/automation systems (mostly because cloud dependence is not desired for energy)
5. Must be easy to use (eisy), commission, and configure (Admin Console/Java are bad. Yaml is great but not for the average user)
 

So, based on the aforementioned, we only have two opportunities:

1. Existing customers with Z-Wave, INSTEON/X10 who want to futureproof and/or migrate to something more modern
2. Complicated use cases such as energy management (for which we are literally masters)

And, based on the above, I decided to develop MatterZ and the very powerful eisy + @Javi is working making things easier with UD Mobile + templates for simple programs + @bpwwerhas pg3 in tip top shape, and @bmercier has developed services that can be used for Ring, @Chris is still in his dungeon solidifying Z-Wave and grappling with its monsters and critters. 

So, yes, I hope I will be your savior. Because, otherwise, UD will have to abandon the automation realm and concentrate on the utility's services.

With kind regards,
Michel

 

THIS is what i have been waiting for.  THANKS for the candor and insight into your thoughts.  

[mbking]

I'm excited about the new "eisy", but then I'm a retired engineer that wants to keep being an engineer, so new shiny things get my attention.  But reading some of the discussion here, I have some thoughts.  I really want UDI to become more prominent in the automation space.  It deserves to be; it's a great system.  Today I have all kinds of different devices talking to one another that were never designed to talk to one another and there are not a lot of affordable systems that do that.  I want that to stay around and maybe there's a way to attract your basic automation user while allowing the same system to satisfy those wanting more; like me.

I would start by picking a new name for eisy.  It needs to be something basic users would recognize.  We already have UD Mobile which does a good job of describing its primary function.  That's easy for users to remember.  I suggest calling eisy something like UD Control or UD Controller or UD Central or UD Hub; something that says it's the controller and it keeps the brand, UD, at the forefront.  I'd push the idea that it can interface to many different device brands via Node Servers.  Again, we might want to consider a new name for Node Servers like Bridge or Interface; something your basic user would relate to.

Maybe the basic user buys a UD Controller and uses UD Mobile to commission devices and to write basic programs without the need for the Admin Console.  Again, control would be basic and might have limited Device Bridges.  That's way ahead of what most product vendors supply their customers.

Maybe users wanting more capability could use something like the Admin Console to unlock all the power of the UD Controller to do the kinds of things we love to do and still use UD Mobile as our primary daily interface.  Maybe this tier has the complete list of Device Bridges available.  And I'm not opposed to having a reasonable yearly fee to have this additional capability.  What I get with UD products is worth supporting.

I'm rambling a little here, but I think UD is at an exciting place.  With Polisy, PG3, and UD Mobile, we can do things that most of the systems out there can't come close to replicating.  We can add a bridge or a protocol adapter as needed for the most part and keep up with all things new in the marketplace.  But we have to be easy to use and hide much of what goes on under the hood to the average user.  I had a basic rule when I worked in the engineering field; around engineers, I talked like an engineer; around customers, I talked like a customer.  Customers liked that and it helped sell systems and services.  I think to compete in the future, it has to be easier to get started with UD products and then allow users to expand their capabilities if they desire.  Even at a basic level, UD has a lot to offer.

It is the Coffee Shop, so grab a cup of coffee and give it some thought.

[Teken]

On 7/29/2022 at 12:35 PM, Michel Kohanim said:

@Samedarkclouds,

4. More complicated use cases (such as energy) are either handled home energy management/automation systems (mostly because cloud dependence is not desired for energy)

So, yes, I hope I will be your savior. Because, otherwise, UD will have to abandon the automation realm and concentrate on the utility's services.

With kind regards,
Michel

 

@Michel Kohanim

I would love to know what the path and solution is for those of us who depend on the ISY Series Controller for energy & power management via the Brultech GEM?? I haven't seen or heard of any new hardware that will allow my UDI proprietary ZigBee dependent card to be used in any of the latest generation of Polisy / Eisy.

This is the major road block of not migrating to the more powerful Polisy controller! ?

I haven't seen any progress or advancement in this area in years since pushing this technology for everyone. Given your comments on better revenue and focus on the Utility side one would think there must be a plan to use and capitalize on the latest generation of Polisy / Eisy hardware - No??? ?

At the end of the day my view is either your team commit to developing a Energy Node Server or resolve the issues that are hindering the adoption of others making the same. Node Link comes to mind and don't know if those issues have been resolved about required / not required software / dependencies???  

Going back into the time machine of when I first started this journey the *Energy Module* was advertised and sold to me and others as supporting multiple GEM's. After years of slow development the GEM was finally supported but when it came time to use multiple GEM's - No Dice??? ? 

As was stated more than a decade ago besides the commercial / enterprise side. The biggest growth your company will see in the energy monitoring / energy management space will come from the massive consumer segment. This is proved out by the countless energy monitors on the market today and those who also adopted the use of Z-Wave.

Lets please, set aside the time, resources, and finances to bring the Energy Module to 2022 and tightly integrated with the latest generation of UDI hardware offerings. This investment will pay for itself as seen by the Utility growth your company knows is profitable. ?