Teken Posted August 1, 2022 Share Posted August 1, 2022 (edited) 32 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said: At least with the app, there was demand....A LOUD demand. While i understand UDIs decision early on to avoid it since other apps filled the gap. As UDI brought new capabilities to the equation and those apps didn't keep up, they did what needed to be done since the chorus sung louder than ever before. Once again- they created a solution and the demand never came. The silence in support of you is deafening. No single other person has chimed in to support your argument. We have people asking about the HDMI, BLE, WiFi, etc but no energy management ?. I may, could, and should provide support for blinds but at what cost? In addition to the course, I'd have to hire at least 1 person to handle that. Because of covid, time off, etc. that means 2. Since I've gotten into this business, I've done less than a dozen. Is it really worth it to add that expense? It's cheaper and easier for me to sub-contract it, add my 20%, and call it a day. As i said before, should something change and clients want more, I'm more than willing to invest. Now, just isn't the time. The same applies for UDI. To design a module, contract with a factory to make it, storage, etc- is it really worth it? You're talking about 1000s of dollars from start to finish over 1 person. They can create a Node server to use existing devices (I believe their are some in their now) so that's an option as well. If Your chosen brultech device has an API, what's so hard about working with someone to see if they're willing to creat one? If hardware is required by udi- you can bring 90% of the people to the table but if that 90% only amounts to 9 or 10 devices, how's it financially responsible? Fast Fact: I have been the lone voice in pushing Energy Management / Energy Control for more than 35 years. I'm always breaking trail and leading the pack and with that its everyone else riding my coat tails. Every person who uses and owns the Energy Module in whatever form has it and uses it because they read some crazy Projects Thread I decided to do decades ago! All of these people including Z-Wave bought it because they read something online related to what I was doing. People reference other HomeSeer and on and on . . . Do you know why any of these companies have integration to the Brultech GEM??? Me . . . This isn't bragging its a plain fact and people have just sat in the corner watching others like ME blaze a trail for them. Why do these people never chime in or lend their voice?? Because they are the same people who will just watch a burning fire and sit and watch. It doesn't stop them from adopting or doing what the other person is doing because they see value and importance of the same! These quiet voices simply don't care to do so, its just lazy and selfish. This time ten years ago it was the exact same push the f^cken rock up hill just to get what was sold to me to work! It never has worked as advertised and there was nothing but silence or when pressed *Oh its not baked yet* Really WTF???? Its not like anyone can say *Hey Teken your not patient enough* Really??? Ten years and counting not patient enough?? Maybe I should just wait another century to see if the 26 things that were absolutely not on the table - Are now on the table and done! As it relates to Brultech (Ben & Paul) they stepped up to resolve and band aid something that wasn't ever in their wheel house. They continue to offer features that are not the core *Things* the product was intended to do. They did because *THE BIG PICTURE* . . . It's literally 2022 and none of the UDI hardware has a simple box to send a (single email). I want you to read that again a box where you can enable an email to fire off ONLY a single email based on a change. How ridiculous is that??? So what does that have to do with Brultech and energy management??? They literally first incorporated a mail server. This did the most basic like what the ISY does. But guess what there was a need for other things like conditions logic, and once again a NEED for me and every other person to simply fire off and receive a single email! Boom, its done by Brultech . . . I want SMS, Push, MQTT, the hundreds of features or integration in their Dash Box and BOOM it was done . . . I didn't have to pull teeth or convince anyone the value or business case as I am here. Only to repeat the same want decades later as if there wasn't a need or demand. For ever and a day asked for all the GEM channels to be supported which should have been done since day one. Yet nothing ever came out of it so it was literally half baked . . . True to form Brultech when asked along with other people sat down and said what kind of band aid can we come up with because its clear UDI isn't going to do anything. Boom, we have State Variables that allow two way connectivity. The list of what I have pushed for and have been able to achieve which directly helped push sales and awareness of the ISY Series Controller is immeasurable. Here's another FACT even if a person didn't buy the ISY Series Controller for the express purpose of Energy Monitoring / Energy Management. Guess what??? They literally jumped ship from another controller or purchased the first time because they saw some crazy guys Projects Thread about the same! Whatever sales you see as it relates to the Polisy and ISY Series Controller is absolutely related to my endless replies and comments in hundreds of forums . . . So when people say how many energy modules are sold. The real question is how many people are aware of my company from this guy?? How many people decided as a first step decided to purchase the base system to see what it could do than later consider other add on's??? This is the revenue and continued awareness and revenue that I have brought to UDI. Everyone else who have spoken in public also share in the success of UDI when the topic comes up so I absolutely solute you all too! Edited August 1, 2022 by Teken Link to comment
Michel Kohanim Posted August 1, 2022 Author Share Posted August 1, 2022 5 minutes ago, Teken said: It's literally 2022 and none of the UDI hardware has a simple box to send a (single email) Are you serious? We have had this since the inception. 1 Link to comment
Teken Posted August 1, 2022 Share Posted August 1, 2022 Just now, Michel Kohanim said: Are you serious? We have had this since the inception. I can send a *single* email and never ever (repeated) receive the same?? Show me, would love to know where this hidden feature is in case I've been looking in the wrong place. Link to comment
Michel Kohanim Posted August 1, 2022 Author Share Posted August 1, 2022 I have absolutely no clue what you are talking about. 1 1 Link to comment
Teken Posted August 1, 2022 Share Posted August 1, 2022 Just now, Michel Kohanim said: I have absolutely no clue what you are talking about. Yet, why are you replying to my question if you have no clue??? It's clear you didn't take the time to read what I stated. The ISY Series Controller does not have a dedicated and simple check box to send a SINGLE email. If a condition exists or changes it will just keep sending endless emails. I'm sure I could write some 9999999999999999 program to limit the same. But, that isn't what I asked for or stated . . . One box that says fire off 1 email no more . . . Show me where this box is to fire off a single email and never get another??? Link to comment
Michel Kohanim Posted August 1, 2022 Author Share Posted August 1, 2022 Apologies. It's not a box: If blab blah blah teken blah blah teken blah blah Then send email disable this program It's not a box. It's one program and not millions. Link to comment
Teken Posted August 1, 2022 Share Posted August 1, 2022 (edited) Here is a visual aid for those like me who need to see what is asked and required. This doesn't exist in the ISY Series Controller nor does it appear in anything else UDI makes. Please correct me if I am wrong . . . Regardless, I made a business case and the need for this because guess what?? The ISY Series Controller in 2022 doesn't offer the same??? So, Boom I made it happen with the hard work of Brultech. Why do I need to push this rock up hill??? Why do I have to convince you something needs to be done??? Edited August 1, 2022 by Teken Link to comment
Teken Posted August 1, 2022 Share Posted August 1, 2022 2 minutes ago, Michel Kohanim said: Apologies. It's not a box: If blab blah blah teken blah blah teken blah blah Then send email disable this program It's not a box. It's one program and not millions. Exactly, not even close to being the same in 2022 . . . Link to comment
Michel Kohanim Posted August 1, 2022 Author Share Posted August 1, 2022 Are you also developing selective memory? 7 minutes ago, Teken said: 'm sure I could write some 9999999999999999 program to limit the same. It's one program and NOT 999999999999999. Then: 1 minute ago, Teken said: Exactly, not even close to being the same in 2022 . . . At least stay consistent. Link to comment
Teken Posted August 1, 2022 Share Posted August 1, 2022 Just now, Michel Kohanim said: Are you also developing selective memory? It's one program and NOT 999999999999999. Then: At least stay consistent. Michel, I'm not going to split hairs with you when I have clearly stated the goal. I have also gone out of my way to show you and others reading this thread how it was done by someone else. Why?? Because none of your boxes offers what I posted up in that image - none! I provided this example like the dozens here to provide you and others who have short memory or have no reference as to what the hell is going. I'm not talking out of my aszz nor am I trying to be obstinate but am trying to make my position with FACTS. Anyone who knows me on here or in real life knows I always try to come to the table with FACTS. I don't argue with people for the sake of arguing my goal is to push the edge of development in everything I do or am involved in. As it stands today your replies mimic everything you said more than ten years ago! At different times in our history you have slowly if begrudgingly changed your views even if dragged in screaming . . . All of us are better for it and it (shouldn't be lost on anyone) even if it appears that I am harping on you or come off negative. You know I adore and support you and the company and the team you lead. I continue to see value and the power this new box and any other box you come out with. This in no way addresses anything I stated up above now does it??? I want this new box to be successful . . . But, I want everything in that box to work and not have to wait 25 years for it to materialize! Link to comment
Michel Kohanim Posted August 1, 2022 Author Share Posted August 1, 2022 Teken 5 minutes ago, Teken said: Anyone who knows me on here or in real life knows I always try to come to the table with FACTS What you posted was not factual. Your contention was that it would require 999999999999 programs and I proved it incorrect. Unfortunately, and as much as I hate confrontations, when inaccurate statements are posited about our products, I must make it clear. Regarding how it should be presented (as a box), well, if everyone did the same exact thing the same way, then what would be our purpose in life? Wouldn't we all become "isheeps" (your vernacular)? Or are you saying that since you are the supreme leader of energy monitoring, we should just all bow down and do as we are told? 12 minutes ago, Teken said: You know I adore and support you and the company and the team you lead. I continue to see value and the power this new box and any other box you come out with. This in no way addresses anything I stated up above now does it??? I want this new box to be successful . . . But, I want everything in that box to work and not have to wait 25 years for it to materialize! I appreciate it very much. Just so that we are clear, we have been in business only for 15 years. So, please do not ascribe the other 10 to our failure. And, finally, with regard to energy monitoring, if there's demand, we'll definitely do it (just like Lutron when INSTEON died). If there's not, then it would have a negative impact to our financial health. With kind regards, Michel 5 Link to comment
Teken Posted August 1, 2022 Share Posted August 1, 2022 13 minutes ago, Michel Kohanim said: Teken What you posted was not factual. Your contention was that it would require 999999999999 programs and I proved it incorrect. Unfortunately, and as much as I hate confrontations, when inaccurate statements are posited about our products, I must make it clear. Regarding how it should be presented (as a box), well, if everyone did the same exact thing the same way, then what would be our purpose in life? Wouldn't we all become "isheeps" (your vernacular)? Or are you saying that since you are the supreme leader of energy monitoring, we should just all bow down and do as we are told? I appreciate it very much. Just so that we are clear, we have been in business only for 15 years. So, please do not ascribe the other 10 to our failure. And, finally, with regard to energy monitoring, if there's demand, we'll definitely do it (just like Lutron when INSTEON died). If there's not, then it would have a negative impact to our financial health. With kind regards, Michel @Michel Kohanim Well, if I was the energy God it would be great for people to bow their heads and do what I want! ? Regardless, I took this thread completely off the rails and off base from the original. For that I do apologize but stand firm in my affirmation that your company must lead the way and carry the ball in some aspects of the I/O. Along with iterating, building upon, and making the energy module / hardware to exist in the latest UDI hardware. Quote If its to be . . . Its up to me . . . On a side note I really appreciate you quoting my iSheep! ?? Link to comment
lilyoyo1 Posted August 1, 2022 Share Posted August 1, 2022 17 minutes ago, Michel Kohanim said: Teken What you posted was not factual. Your contention was that it would require 999999999999 programs and I proved it incorrect. Unfortunately, and as much as I hate confrontations, when inaccurate statements are posited about our products, I must make it clear. Regarding how it should be presented (as a box), well, if everyone did the same exact thing the same way, then what would be our purpose in life? Wouldn't we all become "isheeps" (your vernacular)? Or are you saying that since you are the supreme leader of energy monitoring, we should just all bow down and do as we are told? I appreciate it very much. Just so that we are clear, we have been in business only for 15 years. So, please do not ascribe the other 10 to our failure. And, finally, with regard to energy monitoring, if there's demand, we'll definitely do it (just like Lutron when INSTEON died). If there's not, then it would have a negative impact to our financial health. With kind regards, Michel How are things going with lutron in regards to Ra3? 1 Link to comment
ase Posted August 1, 2022 Share Posted August 1, 2022 8 minutes ago, Teken said: Michel, I'm not going to split hairs with you when I have clearly stated the goal. I have also gone out of my way to show you and others reading this thread how it was done by someone else. Why?? Because none of your boxes offers what I posted up in that image - none! I provided this example like the dozens here to provide you and others who have short memory or have no reference as to what the hell is going. I'm not talking out of my aszz nor am I trying to be obstinate but am trying to make my position with FACTS. Anyone who knows me on here or in real life knows I always try to come to the table with FACTS. I don't argue with people for the sake of arguing my goal is to push the edge of development in everything I do or am involved in. As it stands today your replies mimic everything you said more than ten years ago! At different times in our history you have slowly if begrudgingly changed your views even if dragged in screaming . . . All of us are better for it and it (shouldn't be lost on anyone) even if it appears that I am harping on you or come off negative. You know I adore and support you and the company and the team you lead. I continue to see value and the power this new box and any other box you come out with. This in no way addresses anything I stated up above now does it??? I want this new box to be successful . . . But, I want everything in that box to work and not have to wait 25 years for it to materialize! I have got to say. As I have said before, I have developed many products over the years and I can't get my head around what you are talking about. Polisy offers the ability to send a single conditional e-mail. I have two of them doing this all the time. Although I have to say you are screaming about e-mail and it being 2022 is about as silly as all hell. Most people want some form of notification on their phone. While I and most geeks prefer e-mail, nearly all other users expect, app based notifications. As far as energy management, Home Automation and energy management are two very different things from a technical perspective with little overlap. While I myself do monitor some loads on my Network, I wouldn't expect to be able to monitor and control loads from a "macro" level monitor. I looked at Brule Tech products and I don't see any overlap into Home Automation at all. They have a very expensive monitor, with a primary customer base in solar and wind. There's plenty of ways to monitor energy with Polisy. You have plenty of options for programming and notifications via Polisy. I would assume those things would be present in any new device UDI would turn out. It seems to me that you are throwing a tantrum over things not being as simple as a "box". As I have contended prior, that isn't what UDI does, nor should it. The idea is openness. You can't do that if everything is a simple gui element. There is a reason why most true system administrators prefer cli. If you want true energy management you aren't going to find it in any Home Automation standards, not for serious energy management anyway. Polisy and UDI would be the only place I would look for the abilities to integrate the two in a meaningful way. I hope this make sense to you as I am still trying to wrap my head around the ego centered emotionally driven argument. Link to comment
Teken Posted August 1, 2022 Share Posted August 1, 2022 2 minutes ago, ase said: I have got to say. As I have said before, I have developed many products over the years and I can't get my head around what you are talking about. Polisy offers the ability to send a single conditional e-mail. I have two of them doing this all the time. Although I have to say you are screaming about e-mail and it being 2022 is about as silly as all hell. Most people want some form of notification on their phone. While I and most geeks prefer e-mail, nearly all other users expect, app based notifications. As far as energy management, Home Automation and energy management are two very different things from a technical perspective with little overlap. While I myself do monitor some loads on my Network, I wouldn't expect to be able to monitor and control loads from a "macro" level monitor. I looked at Brule Tech products and I don't see any overlap into Home Automation at all. They have a very expensive monitor, with a primary customer base in solar and wind. There's plenty of ways to monitor energy with Polisy. You have plenty of options for programming and notifications via Polisy. I would assume those things would be present in any new device UDI would turn out. It seems to me that you are throwing a tantrum over things not being as simple as a "box". As I have contended prior, that isn't what UDI does, nor should it. The idea is openness. You can't do that if everything is a simple gui element. There is a reason why most true system administrators prefer cli. If you want true energy management you aren't going to find it in any Home Automation standards, not for serious energy management anyway. Polisy and UDI would be the only place I would look for the abilities to integrate the two in a meaningful way. I hope this make sense to you as I am still trying to wrap my head around the ego centered emotionally driven argument. You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about so stay out of the conversation. Examples were provided to give context for anyone else interested as to the history, evolution, and the current state of affairs. If you can't follow basic examples and time lines while examples to bolster a persons position you need to leave. My replies and statements are based on material facts . . . Keep up . . . ? Link to comment
MrBill Posted August 1, 2022 Share Posted August 1, 2022 2 minutes ago, ase said: As far as energy management, Home Automation and energy management are two very different things from a technical perspective with little overlap. They don't overlap much in America because American residential electrical service is pretty much billed on a single total usage (kW/h) rate. In other parts of the world it's possible some users pay based on both demand and total usage. In those areas energy monitoring becomes a greater piece of the Home Automation puzzle. In the United States tho it's less important, even where time-of-day rate tiers exist, a user can still tell the pool pump not to be running during the highest tier without monitoring energy usage. Likewise once a day appliance like the dishwasher, could be scheduled to the least expensive time of day, again without the need to actually monitor usage. 1 Link to comment
ase Posted August 1, 2022 Share Posted August 1, 2022 6 minutes ago, MrBill said: They don't overlap much in America because American residential electrical service is pretty much billed on a single total usage (kW/h) rate. In other parts of the world it's possible some users pay based on both demand and total usage. In those areas energy monitoring becomes a greater piece of the Home Automation puzzle. In the United States tho it's less important, even where time-of-day rate tiers exist, a user can still tell the pool pump not to be running during the highest tier without monitoring energy usage. Likewise once a day appliance like the dishwasher, could be scheduled to the least expensive time of day, again without the need to actually monitor usage. That's exactly my point. And we already have much of that built into both home automation(timers, and energy monitoring on the device) as well as utility side load control. In terms of central home energy, none of the existing protocols are built around the idea of load control, simply monitoring, yes, but full control, no. And there certainly isn't much of a market for it either, companies trying to deal with load control at that level have come and gone. Link to comment
ase Posted August 1, 2022 Share Posted August 1, 2022 19 minutes ago, Teken said: You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about so stay out of the conversation. Examples were provided to give context for anyone else interested as to the history, evolution, and the current state of affairs. If you can't follow basic examples and time lines while examples to bolster a persons position you need to leave. My replies and statements are based on material facts . . . Keep up . . . ? You know, Either you are so ego driven that you are unable to understand that you can be wrong. Or something else is bugging you today. You haven't presented a single fact at all. You posted a picture of a GUI, all of the radio and check boxes are options that are able to be programmed in Polisy. And may I remind you, you're not my boss, if you want a private conversation, do it via a PM or E-mail. You choose to post in public. 3 Link to comment
Teken Posted August 1, 2022 Share Posted August 1, 2022 (edited) 11 minutes ago, ase said: You know, Either you are so ego driven that you are unable to understand that you can be wrong. Or something else is bugging you today. You haven't presented a single fact at all. You posted a picture of a GUI, all of the radio and check boxes are options that are able to be programmed in Polisy. And may I remind you, you're not my boss, if you want a private conversation, do it via a PM or E-mail. You choose to post in public. Once again your lack of reading comprehension is obvious to all. Everything I have stated is in the public domain along with my replies. You took it upon yourself to come into a thread where you have absolutely no personal experience, back ground, or knowledge in. You than go out of your way to cry when challenged on the lack of merit of your replies??? You believe injecting none sensical make belief words like *Not my boss* to think its going to change the FACTS presented here??? ? Why would I need to email or PM you where a discussion is happening in the public??? Am I trying to hide something or are you so weak in your position which I called out that you feel maybe it should be taken off line??? Anyone who has been on this forum or any forum where I have participated knows I don't enter a conversation or argue with people for the express purpose to f^ck around! I enter a conversation because I'm interested in the same and willing to learn. If I have something to share I do so within the constraints of my personal knowledge. ? Here's another FAST FACT which I'm sure eludes you and probably others. When I and @lilyoyo converse and at times exchange banter, press one another, or even argue. Its always based on the facts and views which they and (HE) tried to bring supporting FACTS or information that bolsters his position. As you have seen I have not once, twice, but three times acknowledged his views but the merits of his positions on various topics. But, what did I do??? I counter each one with more facts to bolster my position and why it holds more. I can agree to disagree with him and Michel. Why??? Because both of them have earned my respect and admiration as it relates to almost all things HA or things in life. You?? I don't know you . . . All I have to reference and base my replies on are your less than factual replies or information that simply doesn't reflect how things are. Got it??? Edited August 1, 2022 by Teken Link to comment
MrBill Posted August 1, 2022 Share Posted August 1, 2022 15 minutes ago, ase said: That's exactly my point. I wasn't disagreeing with you. I was stating the missing point in this thead. In America we don't pay for residential electric with a demand factor. It may be flat rate (kW/r) or it may be based on scheduled tiers. in other parts of the world, they may very well have a line item on the bill for instantaneous demand... In that case, yes the automation system would need to know. "the human's are cooking, better wait to filter the pool". Link to comment
Athlon Posted August 1, 2022 Share Posted August 1, 2022 4 minutes ago, MrBill said: "the human's are cooking, better wait to filter the pool". With the heatwave's we're having this summer even here in New England, the priority would be the other way around... ? 1 Link to comment
RPerrault Posted August 1, 2022 Share Posted August 1, 2022 be interesting to see some links to back up these 'facts' on the energy monitoring demand hopefully, ud will make 16 more boxes to make it possible for the visionaries to get a fax when their 1960 fax machine energy utilization exceeds 126 watts Link to comment
Teken Posted August 1, 2022 Share Posted August 1, 2022 5 minutes ago, RPerrault said: be interesting to see some links to back up these 'facts' on the energy monitoring demand hopefully, ud will make 16 more boxes to make it possible for the visionaries to get a fax when their 1960 fax machine energy utilization exceeds 126 watts I gather you're still grasping how to use the power of Google eh?? ? Link to comment
RPerrault Posted August 1, 2022 Share Posted August 1, 2022 4 minutes ago, Teken said: I gather you're still grasping how to use the power of Google eh?? ? no - just challenging you to make an effective case for what you are obsessing about - instead of what you claim are self evident facts Link to comment
Teken Posted August 1, 2022 Share Posted August 1, 2022 Just now, RPerrault said: no - just challenging you to make an effective case for what you are obsessing about - instead of what you claim are self evident facts Since you need me to hold your hand. ? Let's keep this very simple go do a Google search. Next to help you narrow down what is happening and provide context do a search in this forum which has no less than a dozen comments, links, and references. You know in life its about work and putting in the effort . . . I'm not here to spoon feed you and if you think I'm going to waste my time to offer you information that is easily obtained - get back on your meds! ? Link to comment
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