The best wiring?

[mitch236]

I have a complicated home electrical setup. From the meter, my power runs into three seperate breaker boxes. The main house runs off of two of those boxes. I'm having an electrician give me a dedicated outlet that I will use to plug in my PLM. I figure to have the best chance of stability, I should run a 240 outlet first so I can plug in a coupler and then a 120 outlet to plug in the PLM. The 240 line can come from the common feed to the house.

 

So the line will go: Main line>240 outlet>120 outlet

 

Is this the best way to wire?

[oberkc]

I assume that your line would first go to your panels. Does the same main line feed both panels? 240 and 120 outlets would have to be wired from a panel.

 

I understand that there are hard-wired phase couplers. I think if I had the flexibility to design my wiring for insteon, this is what I would use. I would also include a couple of access points for remote links and additional coverage. I am not sure about the ability to transmit signals from panel to panel, but assume that if the same lines feeds both, you should be good. If not, then a couple of access points may work well for you.

 

I have had good experience with a dedicated circuit for the PLM. Mine is run from the panel to the office, where the computer is located. Nothing else is on that circuit.

 

I don't believe that there is a plug-in coupler advertised specifically for insteon, but I have heard that the one for x-10 may indeed work for insteon. Regardless, I can report that x-10 couplers can at least coexist without any apparent problem.

[Sub-Routine]

There is a wired Insteon coupler: SignaLinc-INSTEON-Phase-Coupler-Hardwired.

 

Rand

[mitch236]

There is a wired Insteon coupler: SignaLinc-INSTEON-Phase-Coupler-Hardwired.

 

Rand

 

I just ordered that. I assume I would only need one.

[tahoe]

I would NOT put a 120 outlet downstream of a 220 outlet. It is dangerous and the two pole breaker would not necessarily trip if the 120 outlet shorts out.

 

My house has two sub panels. Regardless of how many sub panels you have, you still only have two phases, A & B. I put my PLM and one access point on a circuit from one panel and the second access point on the other phase on a circuit from the other panel. No issues.

 

I wouldn't buy a phase coupler until you try two access points first.

[MarkJames]

In just installed 3 of the 2410 signalinc hardwired couplers - one in each panel. I can't tell you if one vs 3 makes a difference as I installed all 3 at once but I CAN tell you that the hardwired phase coupler has made a significant improvement to my communication quality.

 

I no longer bother with access points that communicate with each other - I uwse them only for RF.

 

For what my 2cents is worth I took off the load from the bottom double breaker on my main panel - the 2 closest to the incoming line power - and attached the first signalinc there. I have no reason to believe this is in any way a greater 'quality' spot - but if any spot was gonna be the best logic would have it that that should be the one. I did the same in my sub-panels located in other buildings.

 

I didn't run a box for my signalinc - My house is already finished - I just left the signalinc loose inside the panel. I doubt it's to code (actually I'm sure it's not) but I don't see what harm it can cause.

[MarkJames]

I would NOT put a 120 outlet downstream of a 220 outlet. It is dangerous and the two pole breaker would not necessarily trip if the 120 outlet shorts out. .

 

Sorry.. that's not true.

220 breakers are common trip - if one side trips then both sides open.

 

I've asked several electricians about this and they all give the same response - it's safe. It is also to code where I live but only if you color code the wires properly - wrapping white around the appropriate leg you're using for neutral.

 

Mark

[tahoe]

My response is: Why do it?

 

If the electrician is running a new 220v circuit just to add a phase coupler and then running a new 110v downstream off of one leg of the 220, why not just put the phase coupler on the 220 breaker in the panel and run a fresh 110 circuit for the PLM on it's OWN 15 amp breaker?

 

 

 

BTW - licensed electrician here - I guess "Safe" is a matter of opinion.

[MarkJames]

Why, I guess, is a good question. My guess would be so he doesn't chew up 3 spaces in his panel for just a signal bridge and PLM.

 

Personally I had space for a 220 breaker that I could dedicate to the signal bridge. If I didn't, though, I would have piggybacked the signal bridge off something 220 that doesn't run very often - we have a steam shower that would be perfect. The steam shower is off 99.9% of the time so for 99.9% of the time the signal bridge would have the circuit to itself - the other .1% of the time the signal would cross over through the steamer circuit anyways.

 

The other option is to screw the whole signal bridge thing and get that smarthome bridge that plugs into your dryer outlet. It'd save you a breaker and two spaces in your panel.

 

This guy... http://www.smarthome.com/4816B2/SignaLi ... ler/p.aspx

 

The only criticism I have of it is that it pushes your dryer away from the wall a bit if it's right behind.

 

The PLM, though, should really be a homerun if possible.

 

Anyways - I wasn't trying to pick nits with you, Tahoe, I've just had this 110v coming off a 220v circuit issue come up numerous times in my home. Mine is 28 years old so I'm constantly having to 'make do' with existing wiring. I've had cause to worry about it more than a few times over the years - having to decide whether to run back to the panel or take a leg off the 220. I'd definitely make sure and color code the legs properly if you're going to take 110 off 220 as leaving them improperly coded can come back and bite you in the behind bigtime.

[mitch236]

I really didn't want to get into any heated discussions. I'm sure the PLM was designed to be as easy to retrofit as possible but the more I understand about how these things work, I wonder why there isn't a 220v version of the PLM which would (as I can tell) solve many issues.

 

But getting back on track, I have plenty of panel space but my house has 4 panels (there is a main panel which feeds the other three) which is why I asked the question. I need as much free flow as possible. Does it make any difference if I run the PLM into the 220 bridge or just run it into the main panel?

[IndyMike]

Hi Mitch,

 

As usual, there's no "one size fits all" answer here.

 

Purely from a communication standpoint, it's best to have the PLM as close to the main panel and the signal bridge as possible. I've had the configuration you're describing since I built the home in '2000:

 

1) Triple gang box fed by 12-3 from 15A 240V breaker.

2) 120V duplex outlet on left (Phase A: XTB-R installed)

3) 240V phase coupler center (SH 4816H X10 Coupler)

4) 120V duplex outlet on right (Phase B: PLM installed).

 

I installed the above prior to completing the house. It complies with local and NEC code and was inspected during construction.

 

Now for the rub - Many panels are in unfinished areas of the home (basement, garage, etc). Code requires the use if GFCI outlets in these areas. These GFCI outlets have a habit of attenuating both X10 and Insteon signals. You do not want to plug the brains of your system (PLM) into an outlet that may attenuate it's output signal.

 

Let us know whether your panel is in an unfinished area and, if so, whether there are any finished areas nearby (wire distance) for the PLM.

 

But getting back on track, I have plenty of panel space but my house has 4 panels (there is a main panel which feeds the other three) which is why I asked the question. I need as much free flow as possible. Does it make any difference if I run the PLM into the 220 bridge or just run it into the main panel?

[mitch236]

As it turns out, the main panel is located in my equipment closet so installing a non-GFI compliant receptacle is not a problem. I may use your exact setup, it seems to offer the best chance of having a stable signal path. I wonder if Smarthome would ever consider making a 220v PLM as that would be a better product.

[mitch236]

BTW, does the XTB help the signal used by the ISY?

[Brian H]

No. XTB or the XTB-IIR are strictly X10 signals. The new XTB-R also is X10 only.

 

I know the XTB-IIR detects Insteon Signals and leaves them alone. Some other X10 repeaters falsely detect part of an Insteon signal and repeat the mangled message.

[IndyMike]

As it turns out, the main panel is located in my equipment closet so installing a non-GFI compliant receptacle is not a problem. I may use your exact setup, it seems to offer the best chance of having a stable signal path. I wonder if Smarthome would ever consider making a 220v PLM as that would be a better product.

 

Sounds like you're in business. Please let us know how things perform for you.

 

The 240V PLM is a great idea for signal integrity, but it might not have much of a market. There aren't a lot of people that have a 240V plug near a lan connection. Adding an outlet near the panel is an expense that many people would not want to incur. The additional components and 240V ratings would also drive up the price.

 

The closest item that I've seen to a true 240V amplifier are the line of X10 repeaters (X10, ACT, XTB). The XTB-II is unique in that it boosts X10 levels to ~20Vp-p. While the increased signal level is great for X10 (1 way communication) simply boosting the PLM output won't work Insteon (2-way). While an increase output level from the PLM would help with scenes, the responding devices would need to be boosted as well ($$$ again). I'm sure someone has done a cost/benefit analysis here... Given the repeating nature of Insteon, this shouldn't be required for most installations.

 

The current work around is to use the passive coupler (with listeners/repeater in range) or the Accesspoints. I'm a big proponent of the passive coupler.

 

No. XTB or the XTB-IIR are strictly X10 signals. The new XTB-R also is X10 only.

 

I know the XTB-IIR detects Insteon Signals and leaves them alone. Some other X10 repeaters falsely detect part of an Insteon signal and repeat the mangled message.

 

Exactly correct. Jeff Volp (the XTB developer) worked to specifically ensure that the XTB line of devices would co-exist with Insteon.

 

As mentioned above the XTB-IIR is a 240V device that wires near the panel and provides ~20Vp-p X10 on both phases.

 

Jeff provided me with a XTB-R (120V plug in) that I baselined at 32Vp-p on my system. Since the device is 120V (single phase) a passive coupler is required. To my knowledge, this is the only plug-in X10 booster that is compatible with Insteon (the boosterlinc is not - I have data to prove it).

 

If you can't tell, I'm a fan of the Jeff Volp devices as well...

 

IM

[Brian H]

Well I have both a XTB-IIR and the excellent XTBM X10 test meter. I was amazed at the difference in voltage levels between the XTB-IIR and my Smarthome Dryer outlet repeater.

[IndyMike]

Sorry Brian,

 

Although I quoted you, the comments were intended for others. I know you are a knowledgeable X10 and Volp follower as well. Didn't mean to imply otherwise.