Simple program not running correctly

[bretta]

Can anyone take a look at this and tell me what I'm missing?    Program runs just after dusk as prescribed, but lights will randomly turn off some time after, but well before the programmed time window.

I originally did not have an "else" line, so added what you see as an attempt to correct this issue.  No change.

Outside/Driveway lights is a scene that functions perfectly when manually operated from one of several controllers.

Thanks.
 

[ronvond]

It does look like a straight forward program.  Could I ask why the “dusk/dawn” line is in the program?  If there’s a good reason to have that in the program you might want to add parentheses bracketing the entire IF statement.

[oberkc]

Have you ever checked the status of "driveway dusk dawn" during a random turn off?  Is it possible that the dusk dawn sensor is being fooled by some artificial light source?

[tmorse305]

1 hour ago, bretta said:

I originally did not have an "else" line, so added what you see as an attempt to correct this issue.  No change.

Without the Else the light would never shut off unless there is another program somewhere that controls the driveway light scene.  Are there other programs?

[kclenden]

5 minutes ago, tmorse305 said:

Without the Else the light would never shut off unless there is another program somewhere that controls the driveway light scene.  Are there other programs?

The OP indicated that the ELSE didn't used to exist, and that it was added as an attempt to fix the problem.  So there must be some other program that runs to shut off the driveway light scene, or as you say, the scene would never have shut off.

Edited November 7, 2022 by kclenden

[bretta]

12 hours ago, oberkc said:

Have you ever checked the status of "driveway dusk dawn" during a random turn off?  Is it possible that the dusk dawn sensor is being fooled by some artificial light source?

Yes sir.  Dusk/dawn sensor shows ON even when the lights turn off.  

 

[bretta]

13 hours ago, ronvond said:

It does look like a straight forward program.  Could I ask why the “dusk/dawn” line is in the program?  If there’s a good reason to have that in the program you might want to add parentheses bracketing the entire IF statement.

I'm not sure I understand the question.  If the dusk/dawn sensor is not in the program, how does the system know when it is dusk?

[MrBill]

1 minute ago, bretta said:

I'm not sure I understand the question.  If the dusk/dawn sensor is not in the program, how does the system know when it is dusk?

You're using sunset, which is all I use.   I suspect @oberkc hits the nail on the head tho.   Try removing the dusk sensor line and see how the program behaves.

[larryllix]

I'm not sure I understand the question.  If the dusk/dawn sensor is not in the program, how does the system know when it is dusk?

The sensor and your time frame condition both attempt to do the same things.

Also both conditions act as triggers at the nodes of the conditions. These can cause unexpected results until you understand how that works.

Time frame conditions have a status that is true between the two times but also cause triggers of Then at the first line and cause triggers of the Else at the second line.

Sent from my SM-G781W using Tapatalk

[bretta]

1 hour ago, MrBill said:

You're using sunset, which is all I use.   I suspect @oberkc hits the nail on the head tho.   Try removing the dusk sensor line and see how the program behaves.

So the ISY knows sunset just by time, doesn't need a sensor to report it?     That would be convenient, I'll give it a shot.

 

[MrBill]

37 minutes ago, bretta said:

So the ISY knows sunset just by time, doesn't need a sensor to report it?     That would be convenient, I'll give it a shot.

 

Yes, Sunset and Sunrise times are calculated daily based on location.  See near the top of the admin console to see:

Mines shows custom location because I've entered the Actual longitude latitude of my house.  You can configure yours on the Configuration tab > System Subtab

 

Edit to add: if you don't know your exact coordinates use: https://www.latlong.net/convert-address-to-lat-long.html  enter both coordinates as positive numbers in the admin console tho.

Edited November 7, 2022 by MrBill

[bretta]

On 11/7/2022 at 10:55 AM, MrBill said:

Yes, Sunset and Sunrise times are calculated daily based on location.  See near the top of the admin console to see:

 

So sunrise and sunset times appear on the top of the screen.  Turns out I entered lon/lat many years ago when I first started with the ISY. 

However, the program does not work at all if I remove the dusk/dawn sensor.   The ISY is ignoring sunset time, it seems.
No time to play with it right now.   2 days in a row, no action from the program, although it shows green in the program list during the designated time period.          I'll mess with it on the weekend if time permits.    Thanks!

[MrBill]

12 hours ago, bretta said:

So sunrise and sunset times appear on the top of the screen.  Turns out I entered lon/lat many years ago when I first started with the ISY. 

However, the program does not work at all if I remove the dusk/dawn sensor.   The ISY is ignoring sunset time, it seems.
No time to play with it right now.   2 days in a row, no action from the program, although it shows green in the program list during the designated time period.          I'll mess with it on the weekend if time permits.    Thanks!

It should work.  you have an offset added above, so at 20 minutes and 1 second after the calculated sunset time the THEN block of the program should fire.  

The best troubleshooting step is to open event viewer and set level 3, then look for the transmission at Sunset + 20 minutes 1 second.

[apostolakisl]

If the light was turning off at some random time BEFORE you added the ELSE clause, then you have something besides this program turning the lights off.  And if indeed your lights were turning off, seemingly on purpose, before you ever had the else clause, then you were actually relying on whatever that was and whatever that was is now shutting the lights off at an unexpected time.

You can do a search of your programs by right clicking and use the find/replace and then search your programs for any mention of the driveway lights.  Also, could it be that someone is manually turning them off?  And finally, you could have a faulty link on a device somewhere causing the driveway lights to turn off when you turned something else off.

I would start with the program search.  If that shows nothing, then try creating a new program to send you an email or push whenever status of driveway lights turns off.  Then you can see exactly what time it shut off and get notified immediately facilitating you in finding out what might be causing it.

[bretta]

On 11/10/2022 at 9:32 AM, apostolakisl said:

If the light was turning off at some random time BEFORE you added the ELSE clause, then you have something besides this program turning the lights off.  And if indeed your lights were turning off, seemingly on purpose, before you ever had the else clause, then you were actually relying on whatever that was and whatever that was is now shutting the lights off at an unexpected time.

You can do a search of your programs by right clicking and use the find/replace and then search your programs for any mention of the driveway lights.  Also, could it be that someone is manually turning them off?  And finally, you could have a faulty link on a device somewhere causing the driveway lights to turn off when you turned something else off.

I would start with the program search.  If that shows nothing, then try creating a new program to send you an email or push whenever status of driveway lights turns off.  Then you can see exactly what time it shut off and get notified immediately facilitating you in finding out what might be causing it.

Light was turning off at random times since the beginning, regardless of changes to the program.

Did a search as you suggest.  The driveway lights scene does not appear in any other program.   The driveway motion sensor does, but that program is set to run AFTER the program in question has timed out at 9:20.   

Also checked for other scenes that have this light assigned.  There are others, but no programs associated with them either.     Finally, checked the scene itself and there are just the lights, 2 remotes and one switch that are in that scene.

More intersted, right now, in why the system is ignoring sunset, when, according this thread, that should be better trigger than the dusk/dawn sensor.     

Will set up an email notification and check the logs next.  

 

[kclenden]

1 hour ago, bretta said:

More intersted, right now, in why the system is ignoring sunset, when, according this thread, that should be better trigger than the dusk/dawn sensor.   

In an earlier post you said:

On 11/9/2022 at 8:55 PM, bretta said:

2 days in a row, no action from the program, although it shows green in the program list during the designated time period.

If the program shows green in the program list during the designated time period, then it did not ignore sunset.  It was triggered at sunset which is why it shows green in the program list.

Your best options are to either look through the log (Tools->Log) or start the Event View as @MrBill suggested:

On 11/10/2022 at 9:18 AM, MrBill said:

The best troubleshooting step is to open event viewer and set level 3, then look for the transmission at Sunset + 20 minutes 1 second.

The Log might show you that the lights are coming on and then being turned off.  If so, you'll know what time and that should help troubleshoot.  If the Log shows nothing useful, the Event Viewer might show commands being sent by the ISY but never being acknowledged.

If neither the Log or Event Viewer provides helpful information, then you might have links between devices that the ISY know nothing about.  You mention a driveway motion sensor.  Perhaps there are some manual links between it and the lights that you're unaware of.

Edited November 12, 2022 by kclenden

[apostolakisl]

13 hours ago, bretta said:

Light was turning off at random times since the beginning, regardless of changes to the program.

Did a search as you suggest.  The driveway lights scene does not appear in any other program.   The driveway motion sensor does, but that program is set to run AFTER the program in question has timed out at 9:20.   

Also checked for other scenes that have this light assigned.  There are others, but no programs associated with them either.     Finally, checked the scene itself and there are just the lights, 2 remotes and one switch that are in that scene.

More intersted, right now, in why the system is ignoring sunset, when, according this thread, that should be better trigger than the dusk/dawn sensor.     

Will set up an email notification and check the logs next.  

 

Is it linked to the motion sensor?  This could certainly be turning the light off seemingly randomly.  Also, I assume you checked not just for the scene to be in other programs but also the individual device with the load.

Turning the light on at sunset will only happen if the status of the dusk/dawn sensor is "on", since it is connected by an "and".  You could change the "and" to "or", or just eliminate it from the program.

If you set yourself an alarm clock for 18 minutes after sunset, then be sure to sit there and stare at your programs summary page and see that the program runs at sunset plus 20 and runs true.  If it runs true, and the light doesn't turn on, then you have some sort of communication issue.

[bretta]

22 hours ago, kclenden said:

 

If the program shows green in the program list during the designated time period, then it did not ignore sunset.  It was triggered at sunset which is why it shows green in the program list.

 

@kclenden - Yes sir. Shows green.   Did not stand there at sunset +20 to see it.   Checked 5 minutes later and lights were not on.     Removed the +20 and stood and watched tonight.  Lights turned on at designated dusk time.   And turned off 2 minutes later........
 

10 hours ago, apostolakisl said:

Is it linked to the motion sensor?  This could certainly be turning the light off seemingly randomly.  Also, I assume you checked not just for the scene to be in other programs but also the individual device with the load.

 

Yes sir.  No sir.   Yes sir because I checked motion sensor is a controller for no scenes, in ISY.   It is a controller in a program that starts after the dusk program ends, but that should have no effect.    
No sir... because I didn't check the sensor for manually programmed actions, outside of ISY.   Honestly, I have no recollection of ever setting any manual settings in any of my more than 300 devices, but.....   The log showed the answer.   Lights turned on at sunset, 2 minutes later, "motion sensor" switched to off and the lights turned off with it.   I removed the motion sensor in question and powered it down, turned lights back on and they have stayed on for almost 2 hours now.    Will leave the sensor disabled and check again tomorrow evening.  

[kclenden]

5 hours ago, bretta said:

Yes sir because I checked motion sensor is a controller for no scenes, in ISY.   It is a controller in a program that starts after the dusk program ends, but that should have no effect.

"Controller" has a specific meaning.  If you say something is a controller, you're saying that it controls a scene.  If you use the status of device in the IF of a program, then the device is a trigger.  Based on that, I assume you are saying that the motion sensor is not a controller for any scenes, but is a trigger for at least one program.

5 hours ago, bretta said:

I removed the motion sensor in question and powered it down, turned lights back on and they have stayed on for almost 2 hours now.    Will leave the sensor disabled and check again tomorrow evening.

When you say you removed the motion sensor, what do you mean?  Did you physically remove it from its location, or did you remove it from being registered with the ISY?  If it's the former, you can check to see whether its a controller for any scenes outside the ISY by turning it back on so that the ISY can talk to it and then perform TOOLS->DIAGNOSTICS->SHOW DEVICE LINKS TABLE and choose the motion sensor.  If it runs off a battery, you'll need to make sure it's ready for communication, but you should see a pop-up telling you how to do that.

Any lines where the first, of the eight, byte (2-characters) columns begins with an "E" indicates the motion sensor is a scene controller.  You should see at least one line where the 3rd, 4th, and 5th byte columns contain the address of your PLM.  If you see any lines where the 1st byte starts with an "E" and 3rd, 4th, and 5th columns have an address other than your PLM , then the motion sensor is a controller for another scene that your ISY doesn't know about.

Edit: I'm assuming the motion sensor is an Insteon device.  If not then nevermind. 😄

Edited November 13, 2022 by kclenden

[bretta]

OK, calling this one fixed.   Motion sensor is linked to the micro on/off that controls the driveway lights.   No idea when I did that, but it didn't happen by itself.  Both components are likely 8 or more years old, so at some point I apparently got creative. 

Proved it by physically disabling the motion sensor and everything began working correctly.  Logs showed, prior, that the motion sensor would activate, and then when it turned off, the driveway lights would turn off.  Symptoms stopped for the week that the motions sensor has been powered down and started back up as soon as it was powered up again.

Thanks for all the suggestions and help.    I've spent more time on this system, especially in the ISY, in the last 2 weeks than I have in the last 3 years.  Of course, that's now opened up some more questions/problem, which are for another post.