Why can't a company make this but in Zwave?

[brians]

Seems that technology is there to put a fan control in ceiling which controls both light and fan using a remote switch, what is the difficult part about make it a Z-Wave device?

I want something like Insteon Fanlinc, but ZWave.

I would even accept a two part device, making the ZWave part the wall switch mount so ease of including/excluding and stick with the existing wireless control. Like just place the circuit of remote control into a z-wave switch that can control it, I would change to make it discrete on/off for light and get rid of the timers maybe.

 

 

 

[tlightne]

The Bond hub and Node server is what I am replacing my Fanlincs with....

[brians]

On 1/16/2023 at 4:42 PM, tlightne said:

The Bond hub and Node server is what I am replacing my Fanlincs with....

But the fans have to be smart right? I wonder if the bond will control those cheap devices too? If so I may look into that.

 

[tlightne]

No fans do not have to be smart. The two fans I am running are cheap Harbor Breeze fans. 

[EWhite]

Sonoff also makes a fan controller...that also works with MQTT/SONOFF node server

[asbril]

On 1/16/2023 at 7:39 PM, brians said:

Seems that technology is there to put a fan control in ceiling which controls both light and fan using a remote switch, what is the difficult part about make it a Z-Wave device?

I want something like Insteon Fanlinc, but ZWave.

I would even accept a two part device, making the ZWave part the wall switch mount so ease of including/excluding and stick with the existing wireless control. Like just place the circuit of remote control into a z-wave switch that can control it, I would change to make it discrete on/off for light and get rid of the timers maybe.

 

 

 

I have 4 ceiling fans with lights in my home. This is South Florida  

All 4 have 2 ZWave wall switches, one for the fan and one for the light.

[brians]

I should clarify that all my fans were wired with only one switch that turns power on or off. I have pull chains which turns the fan or lights on or off after I turn power on at switch. An insteon fanlinc solves this but I have seen no other smart device that does the same with discrete fan and light control mounted in the fixture. Except for these cheap devices which seem to be able to do with a simple remote. 

[brians]

3 hours ago, tlightne said:

No fans do not have to be smart. The two fans I am running are cheap Harbor Breeze fans. 

I meant to say my fans have to be remote controllable for that bind bridge to work. My current fans are controlled only manually with a pull chain. If I installed inexpensive remote I wonder is the bond would work or does bond also make such a device that installed up in the fan fixture ?

[Mecheng70]

I have two fan/lights that are each  controlled by a single light switch.  I am using these to control the fan and light separately.  The ones I purchased two years ago were the no neutral ones.  So if you have a current house, these should work. 

To turn them on, they are connected through Google home or HA or UD Mobile.  

ENERWAVE Z-Wave Plus Dual Relay Module, Hidden Smart Switch, Single Pole, 120-277VAC, 10A Per Relay, Neutral Wire Required, ZWN-RSM2-PLUS, Black, 2-Pack (New Version) https://a.co/d/i6hdXux

Edited January 19, 2023 by Mecheng70
Added comments about Google.

[tlightne]

@briansyes they have to have remote control. I added the kits that Lowes sells. Work Great..

[ShawnW]

On 1/16/2023 at 7:39 PM, brians said:

Seems that technology is there to put a fan control in ceiling which controls both light and fan using a remote switch, what is the difficult part about make it a Z-Wave device?

I want something like Insteon Fanlinc, but ZWave

Not that you asked, but Insteon sent a survey a few days ago asking people what items they should bring back into production and the Fanlinc was on the list of options. By no means a guarentee, but... just a thought.

[TRI0N]

I have only one solution for this and that is a Dual Relay. 1 for light and 1 for fan. The only problem is you can't control the fan speeds but that is fine for my outdoor patio fans where I can just pull the chain for fan speed. Bonus is the small size of this relay will fit in pretty much any fan mount, even some flush mounts.

I use this for those:




I'm assuming you need the 1 Line Input - 2 Load Output like that Remote you mention. That is for a single wire setup where only 1 Line is ran to the ceiling fixture. This allows you do to 1 Line In - 2 Loads Out and each has their own Z-Wave Function. Just no control of the fan speed.  The moment someone makes a Z-Wave that does, I'm on it... LoL


TRI0N

Edited February 9, 2023 by TRI0N

[larryllix]

Trouble with Zwave, unlike Insteon devices, they are RF only and putting a radio transceiver inside a fully encased metal container does not usually work.

With Insteon, it also sends signals down the power lines and the lower frequencies can follow the wiring through metal holes.

We may never see a Zwave fan controller that goes inside the bell housing.

 

[hart2hart]

The Bond hub and Node server is what I am replacing my Fanlincs with....

You can buy remote controls for many fans and then add the bond hub as a controller. Example below. The bond Node Server provided home automation control support.

I have fans like this and control the light and fan from one keypadlinc. The fan is hardwired as on in the switch box and gets all control via mixed scenes of bond NS nodes and Insteon nodes. The issue is a slight delay from button press to action. I keep the RF remotes in a drawer in case the something is down.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Hampton-Bay-3-Speed-Universal-Ceiling-Fan-Remote-Control-Damp-Rated-98130/313437557?

[TRI0N]

3 hours ago, larryllix said:

Trouble with Zwave, unlike Insteon devices, they are RF only and putting a radio transceiver inside a fully encased metal container does not usually work.

With Insteon, it also sends signals down the power lines and the lower frequencies can follow the wiring through metal holes.

We may never see a Zwave fan controller that goes inside the bell housing.

 

I'm starting to see Z-Wave now coming with Extenders Built in... Just as the Zooz Motion Sensor ZSE18. If plugged in will act as a Z-Wave Extender which I have been using to replace my older motion sensors and been using them for common path through house lighting.

The relay's on the patio are about 60' from the eisy and are functioning just fine with these relays.

I also wire my Relays outside the box with their antennas extended for optimal performance. This one is for the Kitchen Pendants and to control the Odd Number of Lights in Kitchen.



I do believe Zooz ZEN32 Scene Controllers also have Z-Wave Extenders in them as well. In fact pretty much any of the new S2 Z-Wave or newer Z-Wave Plus devices that isn't using a battery becomes a Z-Wave extender.

So basically you are creating a Mesh Network of Z-Wave Devices. While Insteon also uses electrical current. But I always had problems with that and pretty much why a lot of big companies stayed away from it.

TRI0N

Edited February 9, 2023 by TRI0N

[larryllix]

9 hours ago, TRI0N said:

I'm starting to see Z-Wave now coming with Extenders Built in... Just as the Zooz Motion Sensor ZSE18. If plugged in will act as a Z-Wave Extender which I have been using to replace my older motion sensors and been using them for common path through house lighting.

The relay's on the patio are about 60' from the eisy and are functioning just fine with these relays.

I also wire my Relays outside the box with their antennas extended for optimal performance. This one is for the Kitchen Pendants and to control the Odd Number of Lights in Kitchen.



I do believe Zooz ZEN32 Scene Controllers also have Z-Wave Extenders in them as well. In fact pretty much any of the new S2 Z-Wave or newer Z-Wave Plus devices that isn't using a battery becomes a Z-Wave extender.

So basically you are creating a Mesh Network of Z-Wave Devices. While Insteon also uses electrical current. But I always had problems with that and pretty much why a lot of big companies stayed away from it.

TRI0N

When you say "extenders", are they antenna extenders, or signal repeaters or what. Please explain. Thanks

[TRI0N]

58 minutes ago, larryllix said:

When you say "extenders", are they antenna extenders, or signal repeaters or what. Please explain. Thanks

Signal Repeater like a wifi mesh network. Just not wifi.... 

ZSE18 Manuel:

"If you add the sensor to your Z-Wave network as a USB powered product, it will act as a signal repeater too!"

This includes pretty much all their non-battery 700 Series Devices. All their Smart Switches etc. have Z-Wave Repeaters. Adding more Z-Way through your house will extend the Z-Wave Network just like a WiFi Mesh Network. You can click the Z-Wave Menu at top in the UDAC and in the Network Sub-Menu > "Heal Network" which is the same as "Network Repair" by other such as Home Assist. This will find all the best routes for your Z-Wave Devices via repeaters or directly.

Edit: The Z-Wave 700 Series claims to have a 500 Foot Line of Sight range.

 

TRI0N

Edited February 10, 2023 by TRI0N

[larryllix]

2 hours ago, TRI0N said:

Signal Repeater like a wifi mesh network. Just not wifi.... 

ZSE18 Manuel:

"If you add the sensor to your Z-Wave network as a USB powered product, it will act as a signal repeater too!"

This includes pretty much all their non-battery 700 Series Devices. All their Smart Switches etc. have Z-Wave Repeaters. Adding more Z-Way through your house will extend the Z-Wave Network just like a WiFi Mesh Network. You can click the Z-Wave Menu at top in the UDAC and in the Network Sub-Menu > "Heal Network" which is the same as "Network Repair" by other such as Home Assist. This will find all the best routes for your Z-Wave Devices via repeaters or directly.

Edit: The Z-Wave 700 Series claims to have a 500 Foot Line of Sight range.

 

TRI0N

Thanks.

However using repeating devices doesn't help an RF signal go through a grounded metal enclosure. I was thinking there may be a Zwave bridge that could transfer the protocol to powerlines to get into metal boxes.

I have heard from a few people migrating from X10 (powerline signals only) to Insteon,  RF/Powerline combo devices and the whole thing failed.  RF transmitters inside metal boxes don't do well with standing waves and other phenomena inside metal enclosures. You can even damage the transmitter with high voltages from standing waves (reflected power) when there is nothing to absorb the energy.

At least with most wall switches there is usually a plastic plate on the front and sometimes the whole box is plastic and will pass RF signals. I guess now-a-days many ceiling boxes are plastic also so there is hope there if the fan controller is in the ceiling box and not inside a metal wiring compartment in the fan fixture.

[TRI0N]

14 minutes ago, larryllix said:

Thanks.

However using repeating devices doesn't help an RF signal go through a grounded metal enclosure. I was thinking there may be a Zwave bridge that could transfer the protocol to powerlines to get into metal boxes.

I have heard from a few people migrating from X10 (powerline signals only) to Insteon,  RF/Powerline combo devices and the whole thing failed.  RF transmitters inside metal boxes don't do well with standing waves and other phenomena inside metal enclosures. You can even damage the transmitter with high voltages from standing waves (reflected power) when there is nothing to absorb the energy.

At least with most wall switches there is usually a plastic plate on the front and sometimes the whole box is plastic and will pass RF signals. I guess now-a-days many ceiling boxes are plastic also so there is hope there if the fan controller is in the ceiling box and not inside a metal wiring compartment in the fan fixture.

Oh sure you can use PVC Schedule 40 conduits and closures (grey stuff). I do a little outside the box mounting of relay's so that the antennas are upward and not inside the box as the picture above. That's legit. I do the wiring on the inside and slip a heat shrink over the top of each lead. I use that type of PVC piping and boxes for the pool system controls.

TRI0N

Edited February 10, 2023 by TRI0N

[IndyMike]

I would agree that Zwave would have issues communicating with a device within a Bonded/Grounded metal enclosure, with RF apertures below cutoff.

I do not agree that a Fan Canopy is in any way a RF shield.  It isn't even really grounded - may act more like an antenna than a shield.  They have been making RF receivers to fit in these canopies for 30+ years.  The installation should not pose an issue for a Zwave device.

The lack of a Zwave device for fan control is likely due to lack of demand.

I have used a Zooz Z52 Dual relay that is very similar to the device that Trion posted.  This is a 700 series device that plays very nicely with HA. 

[IndyMike]

Spoke too soon.  Apparently Inovelli does/did have a fan controller/canopy mounted receiver.  It's been out of stock for quite some time... 

 

 

[TRI0N]

1 hour ago, IndyMike said:

I would agree that Zwave would have issues communicating with a device within a Bonded/Grounded metal enclosure, with RF apertures below cutoff.

I do not agree that a Fan Canopy is in any way a RF shield.  It isn't even really grounded - may act more like an antenna than a shield.  They have been making RF receivers to fit in these canopies for 30+ years.  The installation should not pose an issue for a Zwave device.

The lack of a Zwave device for fan control is likely due to lack of demand.

I have used a Zooz Z52 Dual relay that is very similar to the device that Trion posted.  This is a 700 series device that plays very nicely with HA. 

I'm not sure what you mean when I see people say Bonded/Grounded Metal Enclosure. First I'm also an electrical engineer. When we say bounded/grounded that means that Neutral and Earth Ground are Bonded together in the Main Load Center. So in the Main Load Center we install a Green Screw (Bonding Screw) that will bond the Earth Ground Lug Bar to the Neutral Lug Bar and the enclosure. Bonding would remove rouge electrical traveling through your system. 

I currently have 2 of these relays in metal boxes inside concrete pillars that are 60' feet from another z-wave device and communicate just fine.

BTW: You should NOT be bonding/grounding ANYWHERE other than your main load center.


TRI0N

Edited February 11, 2023 by TRI0N

[IndyMike]

14 minutes ago, TRI0N said:

I'm not sure what you mean when I see people say Bonded/Grounded Metal Enclosure. First I'm also an electrical engineer. When we say bounded/grounded that means that Neutral and Earth Ground are Bonded together in the main load center So in the Main Load Center we install a Green Screw (Bonding Screw) that will bond the Earth Ground Lug Bar to the Neutral Lug Bar and the enclosure. Bonding would remove rouge electrical traveling through your system. 

I currently have 2 of these relays in metal boxes inside concert pillars that are 60' feet from another z-wave device and communicate just fine.


TRI0N

Sorry - I think we are saying the same thing.  Z-wave shouldn't have a problem with most metal enclosures encountered in a typical home.  I agree that in a home the Neutral and Ground are bonded at the panel.

My background is Aerospace.  We have bonding requirements for Static/Radiated fields/conducted noise/and lightning (and probably more).  When I mentioned to "bonding" I was referring to the electrical securing of mating surfaces of an enclosure (conductive coatings, gaskets, XX screws per inch, overlapping joints, etc) to reduce aperture size.  

I was being overly technical in my response.  I should have simply said that the typical home Fan Canopy isn't much of a shield at 900MHz and may not be grounded at all in many installations.

[larryllix]

Sorry - I think we are saying the same thing.  Z-wave shouldn't have a problem with most metal enclosures encountered in a typical home.  I agree that in a home the Neutral and Ground are bonded at the panel.
My background is Aerospace.  We have bonding requirements for Static/Radiated fields/conducted noise/and lightning (and probably more).  When I mentioned to "bonding" I was referring to the electrical securing of mating surfaces of an enclosure (conductive coatings, gaskets, XX screws per inch, overlapping joints, etc) to reduce aperture size.  
I was being overly technical in my response.  I should have simply said that the typical home Fan Canopy isn't much of a shield at 900MHz and may not be grounded at all in many installations.

I agree that 'bonded only means two objects fastened to each other. However, in electrical codes they have defined 'bonded' to mean a specific way. Just all semantics sometimes needed for clarifications though.

I have seen many ceiling fan fixtures from the USA that don't appear to meet code by Canadian Electrical Codes.
I would like to know how people would fasten a steel cap to a ceiling box without the metal conductive screws it cones with. This would create a grounded Faraday cage around any object inside.

Having said all that my CAO wireless tags transmit fairly well from inside grounded appliances, like freezers and fridges. Thank gawd for rubber insulated fridge gaskets? lol

Either way you look at it, a metal enclosure is not a good idea for RF devices. If the metal shielding doesn't impair the signal the standing waves might.


Sent from my SM-G781W using Tapatalk

[brians]

Following up to my old post. Since moving to home assistant I can look at other options. Unfortunately this one is not as good as the fanlinc because does not have a light dimmer, just on/off.

Tuya has a wifi model and can make work with local tuya on Home Assistant. This is basically what I wanted, and I only specified zwave because was only other option I would have presumed for IoX. Maybe possible to make nodeserver for Tuya?

 

 

 

Edited May 17, 2023 by brians