move everything but devices to IoP from 994i

[johnnyt]

During a restore/migration from 994i to IoP, can one bypass the loading/migrating of all the Insteon and Zwave devices by simply not enabling support for them in IoP?

Would like to do a fresh start device wise (i.e. no devices) but have everything else brought over to avoid having to redo a whole bunch of work. I know I can start from a blank IoP and import programs and network resources, but I don't see a way to import my nearly 400 variables and 150 custom emails. (Am I just missing how to do that?)

In addition to wanting to do a fresh start for some zmatter board testing before I migrate anything, I'd like to have a way to build an eisy "template" that I can use to resell pre-configured/customized eisy's to other people without having to manually re-enter all my variables and related email customizations. Since the template would evolve based on my own Polisy work, I'd like the ability to restore my always changing latest backup without restoring any of the devices to the new eisy.

 

 

[oberkc]

I had IoP running for quite some time before migrating.  I had no PLM, no insteon, no zwave (though the zmatter board was installed).  The only devices I had were the nodes from polyglot node servers.

If you do not want to migrate your existing insteon and zwave devices, add a fresh PLM, exclude your zwave devices, factory reset your insteon devices, and add each fresh to your polisy.

[johnnyt]

 

2 hours ago, oberkc said:

I had IoP running for quite some time before migrating.  I had no PLM, no insteon, no zwave (though the zmatter board was installed).  The only devices I had were the nodes from polyglot node servers.

But did you restore your 994i for all its programs, variables, network resources, email customizations, etc.? That's where I want to end up (but without the device nodes.)

2 hours ago, oberkc said:

If you do not want to migrate your existing insteon and zwave devices, add a fresh PLM, exclude your zwave devices, factory reset your insteon devices, and add each fresh to your polisy.

I do not want to exclude any of my devices from the 994i, First of all, the 994i still needs them to continue to run the house while I'm playing with IoP / zmatter board. Second, the idea of creating an IoX template of existing variables and related email customizations is to have a jumping off point for adding NEW devices for use in a NEW house, not the ones in my house.

I should probably also mention that simply deleting the nodes in IoP after the restore is not practical because I have 520 nodes. Unless I just didn't find how to do this, I found I can't simply select all / delete all my device node in two clicks, like I was able to do with my programs (and variables if I had wanted to). While I can see why it is the way it is (there are PLM/zwave links to delete too), it means I have to go to each one of my nodes and delete them one by one. Each one is 3 clicks for a total of ~1500 clicks, and it won't be quick as each delete tries to communicate with devices that aren't there. And not just once for testing my eventual migration to IoP but every time I want to update the template I'd like to have for replicating my installation on a new eisy for a whole new setting.

Also, the other way to come at this would be to start blank and import everything, but I only see the ability to import programs and network resources. That would mean manually creating almost 400 variables and 150 email customizations one at a time for testing and each time I want to update my template. I think this would be even more tedious, not to mention error prone, than deleting 520 nodes.

 

[DennisC]

No, you can not pick and choose during the migration, you either migrate or start over.

Having said that & first, let me say I have not tested this but:

According to the wiki migration instructions:

• "If you don't actually change your Z-Wave network by adding/removing Z-Wave devices after migration, you can back out the migration by connecting whatever Z-Wave dongle you were using before migration and restoring the backup you made prior to migration."

When you migrate, none of the devices, programs, network resources, or variables are actual removed from your existing system.

Theoretically, if you used a new PLM for Insteon and you had a different dongle for ZWave, you could just delete the devices in eisy after migrating and continue to use your existing system. However, you will have a lot of errors all over the system.

I see at least several potential issues for doing this.

1. Part of the migration process is migrating your portal & node server license, & the node servers. From the wiki: 

Migrating Node Servers to PG3x

Migration is only possible with version 3.1.17 or later of PG3x. The version of PG3x that ships with eisy is currently 3.1.16 which does not support migration. Please upgrade packages first and make sure you are running version 3.1.17 of PG3x before attempting to migrate.

1. Backup PG3 on Polisy.
2. Restore from PG3 backup on eisy using the "Migrate from PG3 Backup" option.

Cautions:

• Node servers currently installed on eisy will be removed (and possibly replaced).
• Node servers migrated are left in the "stopped" state. You will need to manually start each one after migration.
• If the Polisy was configured to manage node servers on more than one IoX (say both Polisy IoP and i994) only one IoX will be migrated and you can't choose which one it will migrate.
• Node servers installed on the Polisy from the local node server store will likely fail to install on the eisy.
• Node server licenses should be migrated as part of the Portal migration step.

I guess you could skip this step.

2. Once you delete Insteon devices from eisy, you will have communication errors unless you factory reset the PLM that stays on eisy. For ZWave it may or may not be an issue. In any event, you should not have two programs on two different systems controlling your devices, you probably should disable one set of programs.

3. When you are ready to make the final change over to eisy, you will have a lot of manual manipulation to complete and you might risk a strong possibility of a conflict or corruption of something(s).

4. Did I say you would have a lot of errors...........

5. You would be in uncharted territory here, and anything might happen.

As for my opinion, this is not a path forward that I would want to undertake. If your system is that large, why put yourself through that much extra work? 

A safer cause of action would be to hold off from migrating a while longer until things settle down some more and managing Zwave device settles down a bit more.

[lilyoyo1]

7 hours ago, johnnyt said:

During a restore/migration from 994i to IoP, can one bypass the loading/migrating of all the Insteon and Zwave devices by simply not enabling support for them in IoP?

Would like to do a fresh start device wise (i.e. no devices) but have everything else brought over to avoid having to redo a whole bunch of work. I know I can start from a blank IoP and import programs and network resources, but I don't see a way to import my nearly 400 variables and 150 custom emails. (Am I just missing how to do that?)

In addition to wanting to do a fresh start for some zmatter board testing before I migrate anything, I'd like to have a way to build an eisy "template" that I can use to resell pre-configured/customized eisy's to other people without having to manually re-enter all my variables and related email customizations. Since the template would evolve based on my own Polisy work, I'd like the ability to restore my always changing latest backup without restoring any of the devices to the new eisy.

 

 

With the eisy being new, most probably won't be able to speak definitely on any subject unless it deals with someone jumping fully into migration or starting over with a clean slate. 

I tried something similar to what you're asking with the 994 many years ago and I must say, it was a complete CF. I spent more time fixing things and cleaning up than I would have had I simply built a system from scratch. 

I tried different methods to see which one worked best and all had issues (node servers weren't even involved then). 

For example: using a backup w/devices meant having to keep all the devices separate in the console and swapping each- one at a time. That worked but the process would've been faster had I simply added the devices as new and called it a day. 

I could never come up with an isy template that was faster than I could recreate things on my own. If anything, I would copy the programs so that you have a template to refer to when rebuilding things.

 

 

[oberkc]

5 hours ago, johnnyt said:

But did you restore your 994i for all its programs, variables, network resources, email customizations, etc.? That's where I want to end up (but without the device nodes.)

Sorry.  I misunderstood your intentions.  I thought you were hoping to add all your Insteon and z-wave devices as a new install.  

Yes, eventually, I migrated everything over.  I used my existing PLM and tried to follow the instructions on the wiki.  In addition, I did a backup of my network resources and restored them from this backup.  

Insteon devices came over mostly 100%, if I recall.  Most of my Zwave devices came over, but some did not.  All required performing the "interview" process.  Battery z-wave devices did not transfer for me.  I tried excluding them and re-adding but they would not be recognized at all.  Network resources worked from the backup.  Email notifications came without problems.  Variables transferred.

Programs transferred fine, but any that included devices that did not transfer needed some manual intervention.  

Alexa integration transferred fine.

I also had issues with node server transfers from the old system, but this was possibly errors on my part from experimenting with the node servers on the IoP prior to the migration.

5 hours ago, johnnyt said:

I do not want to exclude any of my devices from the 994i, First of all, the 994i still needs them to continue to run the house while I'm playing with IoP / zmatter board. Second, the idea of creating an IoX template of existing variables and related email customizations is to have a jumping off point for adding NEW devices for use in a NEW house, not the ones in my house.

Again, I misunderstood your intentions.  I wish I could say that z-wave import from a backup worked without issues for me, but I cannot say that.  IIRC, once you import your backup the devices show up and, eventually, the process will initiate the interview process.  Based on my experience, some devices will be fine, some will not respond to the interview request, and those that do respond will add the nodes that you may have already had but deleted.  

It took me more than a few hours to get everything working as before, once the migration was complete.  Some of this time was spent replacing no-longer-working z-wave devices with Insteon counterparts or different makes and models of z-wave devices.  From these, I had to add devices into scenes and programs.  

Based on your description of your z-wave devices, I suspect you are in for a lot of work.  I agree with @DennisC: it might be best to wait a little longer in the hopes that Unfortunately, I only have done this one time, so my experience is limited and my memory failing.  

[johnnyt]

Thanks @DennisC, @lilyoyo1, @oberkc for the detailed responses.  

I'm certainly leaning towards a full 'sink or swim' migration for myself but it's disappointing if all my hard work of the past decade+ can't be "bottled" into a template as I was hoping.

For context, I use my ISY to control all my HVAC (on top of lighting), which includes heat/cool, furnace fan, 2-speed HRV, whole home humidifier, 2-speed whole home HEPA filter, 3-speed duct fan, and a couple of dehumidifiers. It's much more involved/complicated than controlling lights because there are so many permutations and combinations when you factor inside and outside temp/humidity, forecast, air quality, time of day, season, etc. I think 75-80% of my 990 programs and at least 90% of my variables and email customizations are related to HVAC.

The thing is, I will soon be starting to do low-cost air quality assessments by lending out (for a fee) some Airthings sensors, for which there is an API and a Node Server. This will lead many with air quality issues to want to improve their HVAC, with which I could help, including using the Airthings sensors in the automation. But without being able to avoid days of tedious work just reentering core, device independent things in my automation like my 400 variables and 150 email customizations, I'm not going to want to do many of those, if any. I'd need to have a lot of the work done for me already, i.e. by being able to load a template on a new eisy, before I would want to do it.

 

 

[lilyoyo1]

30 minutes ago, johnnyt said:

but it's disappointing if all my hard work of the past decade+ can't be "bottled" into a template as I was hoping.

Its unfortunate but most systems aren't built that way. They're designed for single home: one time installations. In fact, I dont know of any system (outside of commercial/custom/purpose built) that would allow you to easily accomplish what you're trying to do.

 

43 minutes ago, johnnyt said:

The thing is, I will soon be starting to do low-cost air quality assessments by lending out (for a fee) some Airthings sensors, for which there is an API and a Node Server. This will lead many with air quality issues to want to improve their HVAC, with which I could help, including using the Airthings sensors in the automation. But without being able to avoid days of tedious work just reentering core, device independent things in my automation like my 400 variables and 150 email customizations, I'm not going to want to do many of those, if any. I'd need to have a lot of the work done for me already, i.e. by being able to load a template on a new eisy, before I would want to do it.

Just because the ISY (or any system) may not work as you wish, I wouldnt give up on the idea. As an installer myself, I would actually take a look at what you do at home and simplify things for your customers. Instead of trying to cover everything at once, try to handle a few major things to justify the time and cost- and charge accordingly. Over time, this helps you get in and out faster to handle more homes...but also opens you up to having repeat customers since they'll want to do more over time allowing you to make more for the same work.